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View Poll Results: Do you need "Pooled boxes" for Audio-Items?
Yes I need them 35 94.59%
Never needed them 2 5.41%
I don't know 0 0%
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Old 04-15-2018, 05:06 AM   #1
enroe
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Default [suggestion: Audio] Pooled box for Audio-Items

After a look at Reaper and a glance into
the manual one important missing feature
struck me:

Audio: Pooled box for Audio-Items

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Audio: Pooled box for Audio-Items
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Imagine you have recorded the chorus vocals. And
imagine you have chosen the best "takes", put together
all the items, cut + moved the second and third
unisono-vocals for the chorus. Finally there are
many cuts, fades and edits on 6 tracks.



The problem is: You need this identical combination
of a myriad of items at all your chorus positions. And
you have many chorus positions.



What can you do? Copy + Paste every single item?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Standard procedure in Reaper
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Two possible ways to go on:

1. You can group all the various audio-items of the chorus.
And you can copy this group to all the other
chorus-positions. So then you have your "choruses".

2. You freeze all the chorus-items per track. So you
have only 6 freeze-items which could be copied
very easy.

But one problem remains:

What happens if you need to change a fading or a
take-volume-envelope in the chorus?
In this case you have to do these changes in one
of the choruses and (1) then you have to copy this
chorus-group to all the other chorus positions.
Tedious and time-consuming! Or you (2) have to
defreeze, do your changes , freeze again and copy
again to all the other places.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is there a workaround in Reaper?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes: The arrangement of your chorus-vocals must be
so elaborated and accurate that you'll never never
have to change anything in the future. Maybe
Reaper is disciplining its users?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion + Solution
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

My suggestion is: Create an "item-box"!

You draw a rectangle over all audio-items of a track
and say: "Create item box". Now all selected
audio items of this track will be sourrounded by
a box.



There is a command: "Create item box"
And a second command: "Delete item box". In this
case only the box is deleted, not the items inside.
The items inside become free again, being just
normal items on a track.

The crucial mechanism is: You can pool-copy this
box. And all pool-copied boxes are not real
copies - they are only references to the original
box!



This would be easy and simple: You put together
your audio-items for the chorus, you do all complex
editings, fadings, envelopes etc. Then you create
a box for every track. Then you select the boxes
on all tracks and "pool-copy" these boxes to all
your chorus-positions.

And that's all: Whenever you need to change the
chorus-vocals you just enter the box. Yeah,
"enter box" is the third command for boxes. So
you enter the box and a box-window opens.
This box window looks exactly like "zoomed
at a single track in a time selection". So it's
nothing special or new. Here in the box-window
you do the needed changes: You change the
volume or the position of an item. Finally you just
close the box.

Nothing more: The changes you did will automatically
apply to all the other chorus vocals. It's like a
miracle!


(If I didn't oversee something or somebody has
a better suggestion ... )
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Old 04-15-2018, 05:17 AM   #2
EvilDragon
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Subprojects can be used for this, so this is already quite possible.


While it's admirable you're checking out the manual, there's tons of info manuals don't cover, you should also probably go through Kenny's video tutorials here: https://www.reaper.fm/videos.php

There's a lot of them. There's one for subprojects, too.


Also, perhaps it would be worth it for you to post in this subforum first, asking if something might be already possible in a way that manual doesn't cover, before you start rapid firing new threads in feature requests forum?
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Old 04-15-2018, 06:05 AM   #3
enroe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Subprojects can be used for this, so this is already quite possible.
Thank you!

Oh yes, it seems that "subprojects" are fantastic for
getting organized. But here - in our case - the crucial
question is:

Can I use one subproject many times in one parentproject?
What's the answer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Also, perhaps it would be worth it for you to post in this subforum first, asking if something might be already possible in a way that manual doesn't cover, before you start rapid firing new threads in feature requests forum?
At the moderators: Feel free to move this thread!
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Old 04-15-2018, 06:11 AM   #4
EvilDragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enroe View Post
Can I use one subproject many times in one parentproject?
What's the answer?
Yes, you can. And once you modify the referenced project, the changes are applied to all the instances of it in the master project.
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Old 04-15-2018, 06:20 AM   #5
enroe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Yes, you can. And once you modify the referenced project, the changes are applied to all the instances of it in the master project.
Oh, that is perfect!
An elegant solution - Reaper is quite amazing!
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Old 04-16-2018, 11:15 PM   #6
enroe
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Default Second look: Pooled box for Audio-Items

Hello folks!

At a second look there is a fly in the ointment, sorry!
Think of the example I described in the first post. Now
there are two ways of creating a subproject:

1. You create one subproject per track. For 6 tracks
you have 6 subprojects.

2. You create only one subproject for all tracks.

-------------------------------------------------------
Let's have a look at the consequences:
-------------------------------------------------------

Case 1: 6 subprojects for chorus vocals.

Here we loose the connection of the 6 tracks. Any
future change - possibly moves of small items - must
be done in viewing all the audio-items of the other
5 tracks. Maybe a vocal-consonant of tracks no. 4 and 5
is not exact at the correct position. To find the
correct position we have so compare the position
of the same consonants in the tracks 1, 2, 3 and 6.
But in "case 1" we can't: Here we loose the connection
of the tracks.

-------------------------------------------------------

Case 2: One subproject for all chorus vocals.

Now the connection of tracks is given, any change
is done easily.

But the creation of a subproject cuts all sends of
the former tracks
they had in the parent-project.
In case 2 you have to create the same send-tracks
with the same Insert-Effects with the same settings.

If you want to change the amount of reverb, delay
or any other effect at only one of the six tracks
you have to switch to the subproject and do it
there. Very positive: You can playback the
subproject and the parentproject simultaneously -
that's good!

But you always have to switch. Back + forth,
in and out. Ok - that's the workaround. Maybe
I am too pedantic here ...

-------------------------------------------------------

All in all and for complex productions, film scores etc.
subprojects are a fantastic feature with great potential.

But for this specific thing - for repeating chorus vocals or
a repeating brass-section - and considering the pure
ergonomics, I would prefer the easy and pleasing looking
"box-solution": Draw a box and pool-copy this box,
and that's all:



Just "pool-copy" and no hassle at all: A small step for
Reaper, but a big step for musicians? What do you think?
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Old 05-19-2018, 06:53 AM   #7
enroe
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Default Third look: Pooled box for Audio-Items

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Takes?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the meantime I tried if it would be possible
to arrange audio-clips inside an item - with "takes"
only. But that's not possible:

"Takes" are entities for applying pitch, stretch and FX.
But the entities for cutting, moving and crossfading are
still the "Items".

So there's still the need of boxes around items.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Composing
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

In terms of composing the feature "box" is the last missing
part. That is because you can "pool-copy" complex midi-
melodies which include all kinds of cc (controller data).

But you can't "pool-copy" complex audio-arrangements.
All changes in the vocal audio-arrangement must be
tediously copied by hand to all occurrences of this
arrangement in a song.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reaper philosophy
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

In my opinion the feature "box" is fitting very well to the the
philosophy or reaper. That is because Reaper abstracts from
Audio-items and Midi-items. Basically Audio-items and
Midi-items are the same, and they are treated very simliar.

You can pool-copy complex melodies in midi-items.
In contrast to that you can't pool-copy complex audio-parts
consisting of several fades and volume-adaptions.

So the "pool-copy" of audio-items - preferably in a box -
is a missing feature - IMO.
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Old 05-19-2018, 07:35 AM   #8
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Hey enroe, have you tried "propagate to similarly named" actions? (just search "propagate" in the actions list) They are designed for such cases as you want pooled audio items for.
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Old 05-19-2018, 07:49 AM   #9
enroe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neutronic View Post
Hey enroe, have you tried "propagate to similarly named" actions? (just search "propagate" in the actions list) They are designed for such cases as you want pooled audio items for.
Thanks!

Yes I was looking for "propagate". This command transfers
the volume-, pan- and fx-setting of one item to other items.
That's a nice feature, but it doesn't work here.

Imagine a chorus-vocal-line consisting of a bundle of
audio-items which have crossfades between each other,
which have different lengthes etc. (see pictures of the
first upper post): This "bundle" of audio-items are
the chorus, and it occurs at several positions in
your song.
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Old 05-19-2018, 08:13 AM   #10
Neutronic
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I get your request, it's something like comps in Cubase, and I think it would be nice to have it. What I simply suggested there is something that can help solve the dilemma proposed in your initial post:
Quote:
But one problem remains:

What happens if you need to change a fading or a
take-volume-envelope in the chorus?
In another words, with propagate and subproject functionality existing I see no real problem. Though I agree that your suggestion might be more elegant (for the case). But if you want to help your workflow now - there are ways.

Last edited by Neutronic; 05-20-2019 at 02:47 PM.
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Old 05-19-2018, 08:37 AM   #11
enroe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neutronic View Post
I get your request, it's something like comps in Cubase, and I think it would be nice to have it.
In Cubase these boxes are called "parts": All cutting, moving, crossfading
etc is done in the part. The part can the be "pool-copied" anywhere.

In Logic the boxes are called "folder" and they can contain even tracks
(but that would be too much for most users).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neutronic View Post
What I simply suggested there is something that can help solve the dilemma proposed in your initial post:

Quote:
But one problem remains:

What happens if you need to change a fading or a
take-volume-envelope in the chorus?
Yes - I see.

I should have added: Also Fades, Crossfades, Item-Moves, Item-cuts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neutronic View Post
In another words, with propagate and subproject functionality existing I see no real problem. Though I agree that your suggestion might be more elegant (for the case). But if you want to help your workflow now - there are ways.
Subprojects are pretty good, indeed. As I stated above they
induce some other problems, for instance you have to construct
an identical mixer-send-configuration. But this is doable -
with a little effort.
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