Old 08-20-2018, 09:14 AM   #1
svijayrathinam
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Hi, I have made a video explaining the problems I am facing with Rea Surround. It looks like a great plugin that could solve a lot of issues while working in surround in reaper. But I feel its got to be more simpler than what it is at the moment. If you watch my video WITH THE AUDIO TURNED UP, you will hear me narrate the issues that I have. I am sure this can be done in the plugin. But I couldn't figure it out. I request either the developers or any member of the forum to share that info or make a preset available for all reaper users...


Here is a link to the youtube video


https://youtu.be/4kQarbUNWyU
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Old 08-22-2018, 07:04 AM   #2
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Have you tried using "Influence" instead of "Gain", in the bottom right small menu box ? then push the horizontal sliders just above, to the right at the maximum, so the circles overlap much more. Not sure what it means precisely in theory but I had this "no sound" problem as well and this worked for me.
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Old 08-22-2018, 08:53 AM   #3
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Yes, it one a the few flaws of ReaSurround when using non symetrical layouts.
There is several solutions in these posts (among others) :
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=169473
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=202783

As denisp says, the circles have to overlap, and tick the "normalize" option if you want to keep always the same level.
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Old 08-22-2018, 10:54 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by denisp View Post
Have you tried using "Influence" instead of "Gain", in the bottom right small menu box ? then push the horizontal sliders just above, to the right at the maximum, so the circles overlap much more. Not sure what it means precisely in theory but I had this "no sound" problem as well and this worked for me.


If I do that then it starts bleeding sound to the wrong channels..For example check out the attached image. I have placed the pan puck between centre and right speakers. In that position the signal should never come out of the left channel. But it does...It would be so easy if cockos can just release a preset that can be used for 5.1 film and 7.1 film setups...And since reasurround is a 3D panner..why not release a preset for the dolby atmos bed too...

Pls check out the attached image...


https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Yl...e7pv-biEN8LevW
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Old 08-22-2018, 12:33 PM   #5
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I think of Reasurround as being more about structuring the surround environment and speaker placement and less about interacting with the mix. It's an output matrix. If I want to pan something, that something is a mono or stereo file, and I use Sonic Anomaly's Surround Pan to feed the track into the matrix. Works quite well.
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Old 08-22-2018, 12:35 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by NadirNovelties View Post
I think of Reasurround as being more about structuring the surround environment and speaker placement and less about interacting with the mix. It's an output matrix. If I want to pan something, that something is a mono or stereo file, and I use Sonic Anomaly's Surround Pan to feed the track into the matrix. Works quite well.

The Sonic anomaly's surround pan also has the same issue..Bleeding sounds into unintended channels. I even wrote to them about it. Unfortunately they dont want to address that issue. I am currently using Iosono Anymix panner. But I really feel if they give these presets in reasurround it could go a long way for film and TV post.
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Old 08-22-2018, 02:34 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by svijayrathinam View Post
The Sonic anomaly's surround pan also has the same issue..Bleeding sounds into unintended channels. I even wrote to them about it. Unfortunately they dont want to address that issue. I am currently using Iosono Anymix panner. But I really feel if they give these presets in reasurround it could go a long way for film and TV post.
Reasound is designed to give you an output matrix that feeds a speaker array in the same way stereo is an output matrix for a speaker array. But it isn't a panner, nor should it be. You don't do your panning on the master stereo bus, you do it in the mix that feeds the master bus. Same thing here. Reasound works best as a tool to determine which output channel feeds which speaker and where those speakers are located.

Now as far as your particular goal of keeping the volume consistent across the side walls of a 5.1 mix, let's walk this through in really basic terms. That box in Reasound with the speakers in the corners is a listening space - presumably a theater if you're mixing for film. The circles coming out of the speakers indicate the volume drop-off of the speaker: the farther away you get from a speaker, the quieter the signal coming out of it. But obviously those aren't the complete range of where the sound is audible since you can hear all of the speakers everywhere in the theater if the sound is loud enough because amplitude varies. We control where a sound seems to localize by controlling the volume coming out of each speaker. Simple, right? Obvious, even. And the wrong way to understand how this works.

Let's say in a film, a missile flies from the front of the theater to the back. That sonic illusion is created by having the volume range from very loud up front to very loud in the back. But looking at the meters, you can see that that volume level drops in between the speakers. If you're not mixing in a 5.1 room (and I'm guessing you aren't), you might think to yourself that the sound is going to drop off in the middle and the 3D illusion will disappear.

In your video, you even went so far as to compensate for the sound differential in between the stereo speakers up front by sending some of your mix to the center speaker, treating the whole thing as a 3-speaker array across the front of the theater. Rather than use the phantom center in the stereo image of the left-front and right-front speakers, you folded the center speaker in so that it would look consistent volume-wise.

But having consistent amplitude across a plane isn't how we localize sound. You can establish this for yourself by panning a tone back and forth between a stereo speaker array. When the volume level on each output is equal as it reaches the listener, it sounds like it's in the center of the stereo image, but it is 50% less than it was when it's only coming out of one speaker or another. The same works front to back. That's what we perceive as a phantom center.

Because we place audio in space based on time, not amplitude. The millisecond differences between when sounds reach each of your ears are far more important than their relative volume levels.

If you want the volume of your missile to remain constant in amplitude from front to back as it flies overhead, then what you're actually asking for is for the front and back speaker to boost the volume by double or more (depending on the shape of the listening space) so that the amplitude is the same in between the two speakers. Which, assuming you've got a full theater, would not be particularly popular with the people sitting closer to those speakers. Not only would you be destroying the 3D illusion for everyone but the 1 or 2 people in the right position, you'd also be blowing out everyone else's ears to make it work for them.

Unless you're mixing for one person sitting dead center in a 5.1 environment, 3D effects like what it sounds like you're looking for don't really work the way it seems like you're picturing them. Which is not to say you can't have front-to-back effects (you can, obviously), but that you have to create them using the feeds to the individual speakers and their relative volume levels. The audience will localize the sound source by hearing what is in front of and what is behind them at relative levels. Because, again, we perceive space based on time, not amplitude. That's what a phantom center actually is - time, not amplitude.


The way you're thinking about this is more aligned to creating a stereo image, and that's great if you can get everyone in the theater to wear headphones so that the stereo center is consistent for everyone. Since that's not going to happen, you have to think about it slightly differently. If I'm right and you're not mixing in a 5.1 room, try to mix in a proper room at least once - you'll hear what I'm talking about immediately. Move around in that room, get a sense of how it changes.


TLDR: Reasound isn't the right tool for panning, and amplitude isn't the right unit of measurement.


On a side note, the center speaker is generally reserved for dialog or anything that needs to be heard consistently throughout the theater. If you're panning left-to-right you probably want to leave that channel out. Let the phantom center work for you.

I hope that's helpful.

[edited for clarity.]

Last edited by NadirNovelties; 08-22-2018 at 04:04 PM.
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Old 08-22-2018, 04:23 PM   #8
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Hi Nadir

I know you mean well but Vijay isn't new to film mixing, nor to reaper and since this is the feature request forum I'm pretty sure he's not looking for a workaround, or to be told why he shouldn't want something.
He and I have spent many hours making videos on post-production in reaper if you'll like to check them on my website.
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Old 08-22-2018, 04:30 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NadirNovelties View Post
Reasound is designed to give you an output matrix that feeds a speaker array in the same way stereo is an output matrix for a speaker array. But it isn't a panner, nor should it be. You don't do your panning on the master stereo bus, you do it in the mix that feeds the left and right channels. Same thing here. Reasound works best as a tool to determine which output channel feeds which speaker and where those speakers are located.
False...According to cockos.."ReaSurround is a multi-channel surround panner with support for any number of input channels and speakers"




Quote:
Originally Posted by NadirNovelties View Post
Now as far as your particular goal of keeping the volume consistent across the side walls of a 5.1 mix, let's walk this through in really basic terms.

Pls dont. From whatever you are saying it is very evident that you have very little or no knowledge on how things work in film audio post production. If you really care to understand I strongly recommend this book.

https://www.amazon.com/Surround-Soun.../dp/0240808290


If you cared for it further..I suggest you spend some time in any film mixing studio to get an understanding of how things work in the film world.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NadirNovelties View Post
If you're not mixing in a 5.1 room (and I'm guessing you aren't)
False. I am working on a calibrated 5.1 room built for designing sound for films


Quote:
Originally Posted by NadirNovelties View Post
In your video, you even went to far as to compensate for the sound differential in between the stereo speakers up front by sending some of your mix to the center speaker, treating the whole thing as a 3-speaker array across the front of the theater. Rather than use the phantom center in the stereo image of the left-front and right-front speakers, you folded the center speaker in so that it would look consistent volume-wise. And in so doing, you ignored the phantom center that was already there for you.

That is how it is supposed to be in film audio post workflow. Pls read the book and spend some time in a surround mixing studio working on a film.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NadirNovelties View Post
But having consistent amplitude across a plane isn't how we localize sound.

False..Pls read the book.



Quote:
Originally Posted by NadirNovelties View Post
If you want the volume of your missile to remain consistent in amplitude from front to back as it flies overhead, then what you're actually asking for is for the front and back speaker to boost the volume by double or more (depending on the shape of the listening space) so that the amplitude is the same in between the two speakers. Which, assuming you've got a full theater, would not be particularly popular with the people sitting closer to those speakers. Not only would you be destroying the 3D illusion for everyone but the 1 or 2 people in the right position, you'd also be blowing out everyone else's ears to make it work for them.

Unless you're mixing for one person sitting dead center in a 5.1 environment, 3D effects like what it sounds like you're looking for don't really work the way it seems like you're picturing them. Which is not to say you can't have front-to-back effects (you can, obviously), but that you have to create them using the feeds to the individual speakers and their relative volume levels. The audience will localize the sound source by hearing what is in front of and what is behind them at relative levels. Because, again, we perceive space based on time, not amplitude. That's what a phantom center actually is - time, not amplitude.

More proof for your lack of understanding of film post workflow. Again I suggest you to spend some time in any film mixing studio and read the book.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NadirNovelties View Post
If I'm right and you're not mixing in a 5.1 room, try to mix in a proper room at least once - you'll hear what I'm talking about immediately
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm3221039/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1

Thats my IMDB Profile for you to look at. Film audio post is what I do for a living and I work in a Dolby atmos/Auro 3D film mixing room every day of the week.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NadirNovelties View Post
TLDR: Reasound isn't the right tool for panning

I am pretty sure surround panning is the reason why this plugin was designed by cockos in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NadirNovelties View Post
On a side note, the center speaker is generally reserved for dialog or anything that needs to be heard consistently throughout the theater. If you're panning left-to-right you probably want to leave that channel out. Let the phantom center work for you.
99% of the time when a sound is panned between the screen channels the sound pass through the centre channel. Thats how its done in the film post workflow. Pls read the book.

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I hope that's helpful.
Totally not. But thx for your time. I wish you used that in a better way.
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Old 08-22-2018, 05:45 PM   #10
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Actually, I do work in post. Been doing it quite successfully for a while now and have mixed at Skywalker and Fantasy. Tom is actually an acquaintance of mine - glad you liked his book.

I certainly didn't mean to be condescending above, but it's clear you don't understand some basics. I won't stick my nose in, though - good luck, though.
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Old 08-22-2018, 05:50 PM   #11
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I won't stick my nose in, though - good luck, though.
Thank you very much for saving yours and my time . 😀
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Old 07-05-2019, 03:41 PM   #12
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Bump pls .. reasurround needs some love from developers. If it can do what is expected on the link posted in the first message.. it will be huge for film post workflow 😀😀.. pls developers
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Old 07-08-2019, 10:01 AM   #13
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Maybe we should limit our request to standard panners integrated in to track controls.

Mono/Stereo -> 5.1/7.1 are the most used, unless you're doing Atmos, in which case I'm wondering whether there are any effective solutions for use in Reaper anyway.


Justin , Schwa , we're got a bunch of 2.0 panners in the track controls. How about a 2->5.0 panner for starters as an optional track panner ?

Optional pop-up pan field via single-click. Could be on the TCP. Could be its own view, dockable. Mono input option. Center exclusion via volume slider. For starters. How long can that take with your experience level ?
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Old 07-08-2019, 10:23 AM   #14
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Just an LCR panner will go a long way for starters.. we can have a surround mode button on the TCP and with that turned on if the balance panner is placed in the middle the audio should come out of 3rd channel which is centre channel

Most important thing is to retain stereo pans.. for example an Fx editor works in a stereo room and uses the reaper track balanced.. and he has done some left to right pans.. now when we are doing surround mixes .. I would not want to re do all the x axis pans.. as it’s done already.. all I have to do is turn the surround panner on and X axis pan should just follow the track balance panner automation..
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Old 07-09-2019, 02:03 PM   #15
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Good point.

Automation would require conversion. The left/right panner can have different modes and this would need to be kept when switching to a 5.1/7.1 panner.

We should describe what happens to all three(iirc) stereo pan mode parameter and envelopes thereof when going to 5.1/7.1.
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Old 07-09-2019, 02:08 PM   #16
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I really hope Justin and schwa are reading this.. it’s about time we have this. Reaper is almost ready for mainstream post production. Things like this will definitely push reaper in the right direction for post production.
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Old 07-14-2019, 02:51 PM   #17
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I've often thought it would be nice to have an additional option in the track panning setup: a tick box that would turn on another pan knob labelled 'Front-Back'.
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Old 07-14-2019, 03:28 PM   #18
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Quote:
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I've often thought it would be nice to have an additional option in the track panning setup: a tick box that would turn on another pan knob labelled 'Front-Back'.
Yes that would be nice too.. anything other than what we have currently would be a major step in the right direction for post production..
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Old 07-15-2019, 10:33 AM   #19
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Hi! i have had the same issues recently. I don't know if it can help, it's not perfect, but here is the best setup i could think of for 5.1:
https://i.imgur.com/GPJ95DP.png
https://i.imgur.com/wzGjrB8.png

Basically reducing Y Depth to 50%, and adding a Cs "speaker" routed to Ls & Rs outputs.

I even tried using only one reasurround per aux (first pic), and controlling it from channels with midi CC so you can still pan sends independently, or, for example, put another reasurround on a reverb aux and using another "midi controller" to pan the send in surround. It works, i can attach my jsfx here if someone wants it. But to be honest, it's very stressful to manage in a big session...

Edit: I guess we would need rectangular influence shapes for it to really work as expected. For example with this setup if you pan 25% left and say 10% rear, there is a small gap and nothing enters the rear channels. It should. But even with that it would not be simple enough to pan sends independently in surround. I wish there were integrated surround panners on channels AND on sends too

Last edited by bertom; 07-17-2019 at 11:45 AM. Reason: Precisions
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Old 10-03-2019, 05:08 PM   #20
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Bump pls
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Old 10-14-2019, 10:51 AM   #21
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Bumping as well, I can't figure out why the panner should be working like this. Would be a great help to get it fixed, there isn't a replacement panner plugin out there.
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Old 07-07-2020, 05:16 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svijayrathinam View Post
Hi, I have made a video explaining the problems I am facing with Rea Surround. It looks like a great plugin that could solve a lot of issues while working in surround in reaper. But I feel its got to be more simpler than what it is at the moment. If you watch my video WITH THE AUDIO TURNED UP, you will hear me narrate the issues that I have. I am sure this can be done in the plugin. But I couldn't figure it out. I request either the developers or any member of the forum to share that info or make a preset available for all reaper users...


Here is a link to the youtube video


https://youtu.be/4kQarbUNWyU
I'll be the first to admit I'm a huge novice to all of this, but I've been doing a lot of mediocre 5.1 music mixes and exclusively using ReaSurround because I'm cheap. It seems to me like what you want to set the speaker influence to relative instead of absolute.
With absolute the panning is well... absolute. Each speaker has the radial circular influence, and any time the sound source exits that radius it doesn't send any audio signal at all. The huge empty spot in the middle exists because of this. The dead zone in the phantom speaker ranges is because the falloff is 100% in the middle where the speaker is and 0% at the radius edge. thus in between it's at 0% for both speakers. If you want to send audio to the phantom speaker you need to increase the speakers influence radius, but the falloff is still weird. To increase speaker influence, use the dropdown on the bottom right to change between speaker output gain and speaker influence.
There's a tickbox under the absolute setting to "Normalize multichannel gain" which 100% sucks if you're looking to actually pan anything. I don't really know why it exists. It makes the speaker play 100% volume from the sound source as long as it's in it's influence radius. It's identical to just sticking the sound source in the same location as the speaker. Again, I don't know why it exists. There's no fading at all, and it'll just instantly swap over 100% volume to another speaker if you try and pan it.

With Relative speaker influence the falloff extends beyond the radius, so you might get some bleed over into other channels. Thus you might actually want to lower the influence, but the phantom center is present and there's no completely dead zones like with absolute.

Some other things to note, which I only recently figured out, under the inputs meters there's a dropdown box where you can select LFE and change the volume of LFE send per input, and you can cut out or boost the center channel with Center Trim. Which also seems kind of pointless when you can adjust the per channel output gain anyways.

That's the best answer I can give. Absolute speaker influence is super weird and I don't know in what scenario it would be useful. Relative gives a more realistic and natural response.
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