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Old 07-04-2022, 04:56 AM   #17721
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Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
Not sure I understand the problem here. Is this something that only affects OSC? Surely the hardware connections are the same on different pages, because you've set them the same?
It's more fundamental than that.

Right now you can have different Pages with different Midi ports for the same Surface, different IP addresses for the same OSC device, etc.

It's just fundamentally incorrect to rely on convention here.

The definition of the IO should be per surface, period.

The definition of the .mst files and Zone folder for a given Surface can and should be Page context specific.
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Old 07-04-2022, 05:05 AM   #17722
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Originally Posted by Puck View Post
However, the reason I stumbled upon this a few months back is:

I was trying to copy Eucon's Track list. So my intention was to flip to a second page with significantly more channels to have a bird's eye view of your tracks.
Interesting argument for allowing different channel counts and starting positions for the same Surface on different Pages
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Old 07-04-2022, 05:11 AM   #17723
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Hmmm...

You have 0 channels on both surfaces...
Interesting new tidbit:

Making the channel counts both 8 and 8 resulted in the same behavior.

However what I've noticed now is that the state of this bug is more severe. After testing with my files, going back into Reaper will silently crash until I restart my computer. I even tried deleting my CSI.ini file and still got the crash until I restarted. Crazy!

But I know we are talking about how to remedy the issue already
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Old 07-04-2022, 05:21 AM   #17724
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Originally Posted by Puck View Post
Interesting new tidbit:

Making the channel counts both 8 and 8 resulted in the same behavior.

However what I've noticed now is that the state of this bug is more severe. After testing with my files, going back into Reaper will silently crash until I restart my computer. I even tried deleting my CSI.ini file and still got the crash until I restarted. Crazy!

But I know we are talking about how to remedy the issue already
Thanks for testing !

Yup, we really have to solve this !
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Old 07-04-2022, 05:24 AM   #17725
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
It's more fundamental than that.

Right now you can have different Pages with different Midi ports for the same Surface, different IP addresses for the same OSC device, etc.

It's just fundamentally incorrect to rely on convention here.

The definition of the IO should be per surface, period.

The definition of the .mst files and Zone folder for a given Surface can and should be Page context specific.
I see It makes sense to me to separate the 'hardware' side of CSI (surfaces, ports etc) which are fixed in a true, physical sense, from the 'software' side of CSI (.mst, .ost and .zon) which can be altered by Pages.
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Old 07-04-2022, 05:25 AM   #17726
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OK, seems clear what we must do:

1) Midi ports, IP addresses and ports MUST be defined once only per Surface !

2) We are free to define .mst files and Zone Folders on a per Page basis.

3) We must decide whether to define channel count and starting position per Surface or per Page.
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Old 07-04-2022, 05:28 AM   #17727
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Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
I see It makes sense to me to separate the 'hardware' side of CSI (surfaces, ports etc) which are fixed in a true, physical sense, from the 'software' side of CSI (.mst, .ost and .zon) which can be altered by Pages.
Yes, exactly !

The only fluid part is channel count/starting position which could be in either, although by definition, that would require different .mst files
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Old 07-04-2022, 05:30 AM   #17728
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Yes, exactly !

The only fluid part is channel count/starting position which could be in either, although by definition, that would require different .mst files
Channel count and starting position are software, no?
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Old 07-04-2022, 05:35 AM   #17729
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Channel count and starting position are software, no?
Starting position is definitely software.

Channel count depends on if you are talking Midi (hardware) or OSC (software).

I mean, theoretically you could have an 8 channel midi device defined with less than 8 channels on a given Page, but who would want to waste hardware channels ?

But your point is well taken.
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Old 07-04-2022, 05:43 AM   #17730
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Thanks for the discussion, MixMonkey and Puck.

I think for max flexibility, we should allow channel count and starting position to be defined per Page.

After all, channel count relies on the correct accompanying .mst (or .ost) file and starting position is clearly software.

Suggest we add a third window on the far left of the Config panel for defining surface params.

So the workflow is, from left to right:

1) define Surface hardware -- midi ports, IP adresses and ports
2) define Page(s)
3) define Surfaces within Pages — channel count, starting position, .mst and zone Folder

What do you think folks ?
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Old 07-04-2022, 05:44 AM   #17731
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
I mean, theoretically you could have an 8 channel midi device defined with less than 8 channels on a given Page, but who would want to waste hardware channels ?
How about defining an eight channel surface with a single track volume fader (selected track) and seven sends (also selected track)?
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Old 07-04-2022, 05:45 AM   #17732
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Thanks for the discussion, MixMonkey and Puck.

I think for max flexibility, we should allow channel count and starting position to be defined per Page.

After all, channel count relies on the correct accompanying .mst file and starting position is clearly software.

Suggest we add a third window on the far left of the Config panel for defining surface params.

So the workflow is, from left to right:

1) define Surface hardware
2) define Page(s)
3) define Surfaces within Pages ó channel count, starting position, .mst and zone Folder

What do you think folks ?
Yep, works for me
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Old 07-04-2022, 05:47 AM   #17733
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How about defining an eight channel surface with a single track volume fader (selected track) and seven sends (also selected track)?
Good point.
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Old 07-04-2022, 06:35 AM   #17734
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Ok, we can clean up the Page syntax a bit since we are redoing CSI.ini

FollowTCP/FollowMCP - fine as is

SynchPages/NoSynchPages - suggest rename to SynchBanking/NoSynchBanking

ScrollLink/NoScrollLink -- suggest eliminating altogether.

We already have ToggleScrollLink and we can use OnInitialization to accomplish the same result.

Suggest the default is off,

Code:
OnInitialization ToggleScrollLink
turns it on.

Suggested CSI.ini file format:

Code:
Version 2.0

MidiSurface "XTouch Universal" 12 11 
OSCSurface "iPhone" 8000 9000 168.192.2.1

Page "HomePage" FollowMCP SynchBanking 
"XTouch Universal" 8 0 "XTouch.mst" "XTouch" 
"iPhone" 0 0 "iPhone.ost" "iPhone"
The dropdown for Midi Surfaces will only show .mst files and the dropdown for OSC Surfaces will only show .ost files.

Looks much cleaner to me.

Sound about right ?




[edit]Hmmm...

Wonder if we should make Actions for ToggleFollowMCP and ToggleSynchBanking, and just supply reasonable defaults a la ToggleScrollLink ?

This would make things even cleaner, not only in CSI.ini, but also Ux in the Config Panel:

Code:
Version 2.0

MidiSurface "XTouch Universal" 12 11 
OSCSurface "iPhone" 8000 9000 168.192.2.1

Page "HomePage" 
"XTouch Universal" 8 0 "XTouch.mst" "XTouch" 
"iPhone" 0 0 "iPhone.ost" "iPhone"
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Old 07-04-2022, 08:10 AM   #17735
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[edit]Hmmm...

Wonder if we should make Actions for ToggleFollowMCP and ToggleSynchBanking, and just supply reasonable defaults a la ToggleScrollLink ?
Wow! Missed a lot here this morning. Everything proposed sounds good to me.

Just for my own edification, is the difference between SynchBanking and ScrollLink that in SynchBanking, Reaper's MCP will follow the banking from CSI and in ScrollLink, CSI follows Reaper's selection? If yes, probably makes sense to add toggle actions and default ToggleFollowMCP, ToggleSynchBanking, and ToggleScrollLink to on. I'd think 80-90% of users would want those on by default and best if they never had to touch those actions at all.
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Old 07-04-2022, 08:46 AM   #17736
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Wow! Missed a lot here this morning. Everything proposed sounds good to me.

Just for my own edification, is the difference between SynchBanking and ScrollLink that in SynchBanking, Reaper's MCP will follow the banking from CSI and in ScrollLink, CSI follows Reaper's selection? If yes, probably makes sense to add toggle actions and default ToggleFollowMCP, ToggleSynchBanking, and ToggleScrollLink to on. I'd think 80-90% of users would want those on by default and best if they never had to touch those actions at all.
No, SynchBanking keeps all Pages that have SynchBanking, in Synch, bank-wise -- any Bank adjustment on any Page banks all Pages that have SynchBanking.

ScrollLink causes Reaper to follow CSI.

There is nothing (yet) to cause CSI to follow Reaper.
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Old 07-04-2022, 08:46 AM   #17737
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Ok, we can clean up the Page syntax a bit since we are redoing CSI.ini

FollowTCP/FollowMCP - fine as is
As long as we keep the reference to track visibility.

Quote:
SynchPages/NoSynchPages - suggest rename to SynchBanking/NoSynchBanking
I think SyncPageBanking/NoSyncPageBanking might be clearer.

Quote:
ScrollLink/NoScrollLink -- suggest eliminating altogether.

We already have ToggleScrollLink and we can use OnInitialization to accomplish the same result.

Suggest the default is off,

Code:
OnInitialization ToggleScrollLink
turns it on.
Agree. This is much less a prefs thing and much more an operational thing.

Quote:
Wonder if we should make Actions for ToggleFollowMCP and ToggleSynchBanking, and just supply reasonable defaults a la ToggleScrollLink ?
This would be fine. Maybe use ToggleFollowMCPVisibility and ToggleSyncPageBanking and default both to on?
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Old 07-04-2022, 08:53 AM   #17738
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
There is nothing (yet) to cause CSI to follow Reaper.
Except by track selection, with:
Code:
Scroll view when tracks activated
(right click master fader in MCP)
...for the MCP.

and:
Code:
Reaper 40913 // Track: Vertical scroll selected tracks into view
...for the TCP.
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Old 07-04-2022, 08:59 AM   #17739
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Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
Except by track selection, with:
Code:
Scroll view when tracks activated
(right click master fader in MCP)
...for the MCP.

and:
Code:
Reaper 40913 // Track: Vertical scroll selected tracks into view
...for the TCP.
Yes, I meant an explicit CSI Action
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Old 07-04-2022, 09:06 AM   #17740
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Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
As long as we keep the reference to track visibility.



I think SyncPageBanking/NoSyncPageBanking might be clearer.



Agree. This is much less a prefs thing and much more an operational thing.



This would be fine. Maybe use ToggleFollowMCPVisibility and ToggleSyncPageBanking and default both to on?
OK,

FollowTCP/FollowMCP - history - replaced by ToggleFollowMCPVisibility - defaults to on.

SynchPages/NoSynchPages - - history - replaced by ToggleSynchPageBanking - defaults to on.

ScrollLink/NoScrollLink - history - replaced by ToggleScrollLink - defaults to on with a 0 param.

If you supply a param it offsets the Scroll -- remember you had a use for this ?
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Old 07-04-2022, 09:12 AM   #17741
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Couple things:

Since (presumably) you’ll be in the gui section. There’s that pesky windows scaling bug that cuts off the buttons when I’m at more than 100% scaling. (I.e. by the buttons I mean the line of buttons that includes “Add Midi” and “Add OSC”)

Also…

I don’t think CSI is back to respecting track visibility yet. Admittedly I haven’t tested this in recent builds so potentially I'm mistaken.

Last edited by Puck; 07-04-2022 at 09:25 AM.
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Old 07-04-2022, 09:12 AM   #17742
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
OK,

FollowTCP/FollowMCP - history - replaced by ToggleFollowMCPVisibility - defaults to on.

SynchPages/NoSynchPages - - history - replaced by ToggleSynchPageBanking - defaults to on.

ScrollLink/NoScrollLink - history - replaced by ToggleScrollLink - defaults to on with a 0 param.

If you supply a param it offsets the Scroll -- remember you had a use for this ?
All sounds good I'm assuming that the toggle for follow MCP visibility is follow TCP visibility?

I use the ScrollLink offset to put the selected track in Reaper in front of me (in the middle) rather than on the far left.
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Old 07-04-2022, 09:39 AM   #17743
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I donít think CSI is back to respecting track visibility yet. Admittedly I havenít tested this in recent builds so potentially I'm mistaken.
There's definitely something hinky about it. What seems to happen is that if you hide some tracks in the MCP from the TCP in Reaper with the MCP hidden, the tracks won't disappear from the surface until the MCP is shown in Reaper. However, unhiding the tracks works just fine with the MCP hidden.

I get this a lot as I always hide MIDI tracks in the MCP and rarely have the MCP showing on the monitor.
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Old 07-04-2022, 09:57 AM   #17744
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Geoff, trying to work on the wiki before heading out today.

Has SelectedTrackFX been removed as an FX activation approach? I never actually used this method before, but my understanding was that in the past, you could use a SelectedTrackNavigator, then use either:

Code:
SomeButton     MapSelectedTrackFXToWidgets
Or...
Code:
OnTrackSelection     MapSelectedTrackFXToWidgets
...to activate the FX. This would've been for a "Console One" workflow where just selecting the track maps the FXParams to the appropriate widget on your surface.

Is this gone or is there a CSI 2.0 action that replaced MapSelectedTrackFXToWidgets? I tried GoSelectedTrack and that doesn't seem to do it and I don't see a Toggle action in the action list.
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Old 07-04-2022, 09:58 AM   #17745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck View Post
Since (presumably) youíll be in the gui section. Thereís that pesky windows scaling bug that cuts off the buttons when Iím at more than 100% scaling. (I.e. by the buttons I mean the line of buttons that includes ďAdd MidiĒ and ďAdd OSCĒ)
Pretty sure that one is the bug where Reaper dictates the Window size -- aka -- out of CSI's hands.

However with the GUI redesign, I'll try to make everything shorter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck View Post
I donít think CSI is back to respecting track visibility yet. Admittedly I havenít tested this in recent builds so potentially I'm mistaken.
Yeah, right you are, just tested this.

If you use Track Manager, you cannot control visibility based on the TCP, however you can control visibility based on the MCP, IF AND ONLY IF you have the Mixer visible, Uggghh.

The previous CSI version used to do a complete recalculation of every track on every update pass.

CSI cheated and used the following API values to determine visibility -- reasoning that if the track control panel was visible, the Track was

// B_SHOWINMIXER : bool * : track control panel visible in mixer (do not use on master track)
// B_SHOWINTCP : bool * : track control panel visible in arrange view (do not use on master track)

The much improved CSI design does not recalculate every Track 15 or so times a second (the update pass frequency).

The downside is, CSI is now at the mercy of the Reaper behaviour, presumably, with the Mixer visible, the Track Manager visibility changes trigger an update, with the Mixer hidden they do not. And there never seems to be an update triggered by TCP visibility changes.


The upshot of all of this is...

I think the best way to handle it is to eliminate the Follow TCP/MCP visibility function altogether and go with the TCP visibility, which seems to be the same as the overall Reaper Tracks.

The need for the visibility handling is lessened by the fact we have VCA spill and Folder Tracks, but I know there are going to be some unhappy folks, probably including you
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Old 07-04-2022, 09:59 AM   #17746
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
There is nothing (yet) to cause CSI to follow Reaper.
Unless you use a SelectedTrack workflow like I do with the X-Touch One. I think this is why I get confused by this functionality. Thanks for clarifying.
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Old 07-04-2022, 10:04 AM   #17747
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post

I think the best way to handle it is to eliminate the Follow TCP/MCP visibility function altogether and go with the TCP visibility, which seems to be the same as the overall Reaper Tracks.

The need for the visibility handling is lessened by the fact we have VCA spill and Folder Tracks, but I know there are going to be some unhappy folks, probably including you
I'd rather live with the current-state bug myself!

I use kind of a "Studio One" workflow where the MCP view is almost always docked at the bottom of my screen and seldom ever closed. And when it's not docked at the bottom, the Mixer will be docked at the left side of the screen with only the selected track's fader visible in Reaper (bless the Screensets feature for allowing all of this).

I tend to never hide tracks in the Arranger and set visibility as needed in the MCP - and never run into the issue with hidden channels not sync'ing. So in my workflow, it's a non-issue and worth keeping the buggy behavior in.
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Old 07-04-2022, 10:20 AM   #17748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funkybot View Post
I'd rather live with the current-state bug myself!
I would too
Quote:
Mixer will be docked at the left side of the screen with only the selected track's fader visible in Reaper (bless the Screensets feature for allowing all of this).
Once I realised what was going on, this is where I ended up.

I think it's very important to be able to hide tracks from the surface. The surface only really has any use for controlling audio, it makes no sense having MIDI tracks present, particularly if they're sharing a name with their audio equivalent (that's about everything in my Kontakt tracks)
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Old 07-04-2022, 10:29 AM   #17749
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funkybot View Post
Geoff, trying to work on the wiki before heading out today.

Has SelectedTrackFX been removed as an FX activation approach? I never actually used this method before, but my understanding was that in the past, you could use a SelectedTrackNavigator, then use either:

Code:
SomeButton     MapSelectedTrackFXToWidgets
Or...
Code:
OnTrackSelection     MapSelectedTrackFXToWidgets
...to activate the FX. This would've been for a "Console One" workflow where just selecting the track maps the FXParams to the appropriate widget on your surface.

Is this gone or is there a CSI 2.0 action that replaced MapSelectedTrackFXToWidgets? I tried GoSelectedTrack and that doesn't seem to do it and I don't see a Toggle action in the action list.
GoSelectedTrackFX is the magic ticket

It does a GoAssociatedZone "SelectedTrackFX" under the hood.
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Old 07-04-2022, 10:33 AM   #17750
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funkybot View Post
I'd rather live with the current-state bug myself!

I use kind of a "Studio One" workflow where the MCP view is almost always docked at the bottom of my screen and seldom ever closed. And when it's not docked at the bottom, the Mixer will be docked at the left side of the screen with only the selected track's fader visible in Reaper (bless the Screensets feature for allowing all of this).

I tend to never hide tracks in the Arranger and set visibility as needed in the MCP - and never run into the issue with hidden channels not sync'ing. So in my workflow, it's a non-issue and worth keeping the buggy behavior in.
OK, that makes it easy.

CSI will be hardwired to Follow MCP visibility.
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Old 07-04-2022, 10:34 AM   #17751
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post

I think the best way to handle it is to eliminate the Follow TCP/MCP visibility function altogether and go with the TCP visibility, which seems to be the same as the overall Reaper Tracks.

The need for the visibility handling is lessened by the fact we have VCA spill and Folder Tracks, but I know there are going to be some unhappy folks, probably including you
I think itís great to have CSI work the way it does now being more stable as a result. If going with TCP allows us to not have the mixer open to respect visibility, that would certainly solve my issue.

I donít use folders or VCAs, but I would adapt and start if we canít sort the visibility stuff out. VCA mode is pretty cool, I did some minor testing and I enjoyed how that worked, we just canít bank through any of it now. (Admittedly that made my head spin thinking about implementing bank within VCA mode)
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Old 07-04-2022, 10:36 AM   #17752
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I'd rather live with the current-state bug myself!

I use kind of a "Studio One" workflow where the MCP view is almost always docked at the bottom of my screen and seldom ever closed. And when it's not docked at the bottom, the Mixer will be docked at the left side of the screen with only the selected track's fader visible in Reaper (bless the Screensets feature for allowing all of this).

I tend to never hide tracks in the Arranger and set visibility as needed in the MCP - and never run into the issue with hidden channels not sync'ing. So in my workflow, it's a non-issue and worth keeping the buggy behavior in.
I can be swayed to use the inspector track mixer layout so that the mixer is always visible.

I donít love that because itís screen real estate I donít necessarily need to see but if that remedies the issue then itís worth it.
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Old 07-04-2022, 10:37 AM   #17753
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OK, that makes it easy.

CSI will be hardwired to Follow MCP visibility.
Does that mean that the mixer will still need to be visible for the visibility status of any track within it to be respected?
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Old 07-04-2022, 10:38 AM   #17754
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Originally Posted by Puck View Post
I think itís great to have CSI work the way it does now being more stable as a result. If going with TCP allows us to not have the mixer open to respect visibility, that would certainly solve my issue.
You must have cross posted, please see the one just a minute previous to your post

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I donít use folders or VCAs, but I would adapt and start if we canít sort the visibility stuff out. VCA mode is pretty cool, I did some minor testing and I enjoyed how that worked, we just canít bank through any of it now. (Admittedly that made my head spin thinking about implementing bank within VCA mode)
You can bank the children, but you can't bank the parents (yet)
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Old 07-04-2022, 10:40 AM   #17755
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Does that mean that the mixer will still need to be visible for the visibility status of any track within it to be respected?
I think so, according to my testing.

I know it needs to be visible to update in realtime, don't know about banking into an area where there are hidden tracks, perhaps try it and let me know
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Old 07-04-2022, 10:46 AM   #17756
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You must have cross posted, please see the one just a minute previous to your post



You can bank the children, but you can't bank the parents (yet)
Whatís the action for banking children?

That didnít seem to work when I tested.
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Old 07-04-2022, 10:50 AM   #17757
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Whatís the action for banking children?

That didnít seem to work when I tested.
You don't need one.

Whatever you have setup for banking Tracks banks VCA children in VCA mode.
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Old 07-04-2022, 10:56 AM   #17758
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Ok, I've created the wiki page on the different approaches for activating FX in CSI. Please see this page and provide any feedback (there's probably a million typos but I'll make 50 edits in the coming days to clean up any):

FX activation:
https://github.com/GeoffAWaddington/...SelectedTrack)

That page, combined with the FX and Instrument Mapping...
https://github.com/GeoffAWaddington/...rument-Mapping

...and also this FX Parameter Mapping Actions...
https://github.com/GeoffAWaddington/...apping-Actions

...should now cover every element of FX mapping/activation in only 3 [long ass] pages. My hope is this will be much easier to follow than the prior-state where this information was split across something like 9 pages.
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Old 07-04-2022, 11:16 AM   #17759
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Ok, I've created the wiki page on the different approaches for activating FX in CSI. Please see this page and provide any feedback (there's probably a million typos but I'll make 50 edits in the coming days to clean up any):

FX activation:
https://github.com/GeoffAWaddington/...SelectedTrack)

That page, combined with the FX and Instrument Mapping...
https://github.com/GeoffAWaddington/...rument-Mapping

...and also this FX Parameter Mapping Actions...
https://github.com/GeoffAWaddington/...apping-Actions

...should now cover every element of FX mapping/activation in only 3 [long ass] pages. My hope is this will be much easier to follow than the prior-state where this information was split across something like 9 pages.
That's really coming together nicely, much improved over the old endless pages approach !!
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Old 07-04-2022, 03:43 PM   #17760
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
I think so, according to my testing.
Not a problem, I've got used to that single channel mixer strip on the LHS of the main edit window.
Quote:
I know it needs to be visible to update in realtime, don't know about banking into an area where there are hidden tracks, perhaps try it and let me know
This seems to work fine also. Hid a bunch of tracks not currently within the scope of the surface banking, from the TCP in Reaper. Then banked the surface to the place where they should be and they were hidden.
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