Old 03-04-2022, 12:11 PM   #121
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Live drums (anything multi-mic'd that requires grouping) for sure has its own quirks, but again - just need to use other DAWs for 5 minutes to get a feel for how to do this really well.
Reaper has its own solution for multi-mic tracks - the best by far IMHO: make a custom multichannel track and have all the mics "hard-grouped". All comping is done on that single track. This is brilliant! Separating the mics again - for mixing or tricky spot mic-only comping - is easy enough, and automatable.
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Old 03-04-2022, 12:12 PM   #122
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Definitely none of them is perfect but we're discussing and showing ideas to the devs in order to make Reaper's implementation better.
Having all this info could help them a lot to decide about the direction they will take from here, since i think it's one step before adding comp support to media lanes.
Agreed 100%, I've added my thoughts on here a bunch too.

Would love if this was though about and discussed carefully, it's so important to get this right.
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Old 03-04-2022, 12:18 PM   #123
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Reaper has its own solution for multi-mic tracks - the best by far IMHO: make a custom multichannel track and have all the mics "hard-grouped". All comping is done on that single track. This is brilliant! Separating the mics again for mixing is easy enough, and automatable.
Yup, there's So much good about the existing comping system!

..there's also so much bad about the existing comping system lol.

Honestly most of it can be kept as is! IMO the main issues are:

1. Splits as the take separators (horrifying implications)
2. Lack of a "comped top-track" (especially with stuff like VocAlign)
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Old 03-04-2022, 12:19 PM   #124
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Would love if this was though about and discussed carefully, it's so important to get this right.
Agreed, i wish if at least they were asking a few questions about the benefits from x or y feature, or what if this happens how it could work in conjunction with something else.. I think this could help us a lot too in order to give more detailed feedback
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Old 03-04-2022, 12:22 PM   #125
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Reaper has its own solution for multi-mic tracks - the best by far IMHO: make a custom multichannel track and have all the mics "hard-grouped"
I don't think it's a good solution. I do lots of choir recordings. Every singer miced. It happens quite often that I wanna use a single singer from a different take. Or when doing drum recordings where you wanna cut the Tom mice's and need to change the take after that. Just two examples.
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Old 03-04-2022, 12:26 PM   #126
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But what i don't like in PT is the way of comping. And all these extra steps/actions required to make your final comp. In Cubase is waaay faster and easier.
In fact you just need one action which is "copy to uppermost playlist". Nothing else needed. And there could be a toggle action with that mode activated when swiping for example, so it wouldn't be any different but with the benefit of having virtual item copies
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Old 03-04-2022, 01:40 PM   #127
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So what are we missing that we can't use the script that Embass made, on lanes?

EDIT: So we don't have actions to create empty lanes, do we?

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Old 03-05-2022, 03:36 AM   #128
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Reaper has its own solution for multi-mic tracks - the best by far IMHO: make a custom multichannel track and have all the mics "hard-grouped". All comping is done on that single track. This is brilliant! Separating the mics again - for mixing or tricky spot mic-only comping - is easy enough, and automatable.
This isn't a good solution as 'explode tracks' is a mess. So although initially comping of multichannel tracks is...ok (still worse than other DAWs IMO), if you then want to edit individual tracks (such as remove silence on tom tracks) then it is currently annoying/unpredictable/dangerous in my experience.
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Old 03-05-2022, 08:23 AM   #129
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@Zargon the Destroyer, @Gass n Klang

Hmm, on second thought, you both have a point.

Exploding channels into separate tracks and back into a multichannel track isn't as easy or painless as I made it out to be. I have limited experience with serious drum comping work. I tend to avoid that, scared as I am of room mics and cymbals glitching.
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Old 03-05-2022, 05:31 PM   #130
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Little new to this subsection of a subsection of the Reaper forums but I am just thrilled that there is work going into improving the current take system. I use a few different DAWs - primarily Reaper and PT, but also Logic, Cubase and on rare occasion Studio One. I get why people like the ease of the quick swipe style take system and there are many strengths to it, but playlists are really the only efficient way to go in some circumstances (drum comping for sure) and the way the current take system makes cuts across all takes whenever you do a punch in is just not ideal in any way, shape or form.

It seems like all the DAWs that have long had a take based system have come around to adopt some variation of PT's playlist system and I don't see why the same couldn't be done in Reaper as well.

My hope is that, rather than try and fuse the two approaches in the way that Logic and Cubase have, that Reaper's developers will just add a playlist like system as another optional way to work.

I would love to see the splitting behavior in the takes workflow be repaired/improved but if it doesn't bother the people who love that sort of system, seems like it would make more sense to leave that as is and just build a playlist workflow for people who prefer it.
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Old 03-10-2022, 01:15 AM   #131
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why does it look like this? (the items overlap each other)
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Old 03-10-2022, 01:26 AM   #132
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why does it look like this? (the items overlap each other)
Looks like you are using Free Item Positioning and not Fixed Item Lanes.
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Old 03-10-2022, 01:44 AM   #133
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Looks like you are using Free Item Positioning and not Fixed Item Lanes.
fixed is ticked.
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Old 03-10-2022, 03:40 AM   #134
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In that case, drag each item you want in a new lane onto the striped bar at the bottom.
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Old 03-10-2022, 05:15 AM   #135
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why does it look like this? (the items overlap each other)
Those items are in a single lane. They appear offset because "options/offset overlapping media items vertically" is enabled.
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Old 03-10-2022, 06:20 AM   #136
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fixed is ticked.
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Old 03-13-2022, 04:44 AM   #137
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In fact you just need one action which is "copy to uppermost playlist". Nothing else needed. And there could be a toggle action with that mode activated when swiping for example, so it wouldn't be any different but with the benefit of having virtual item copies
So could the first lane become the comp lane and the lane that's currently second become the first? And then with razor edit (or other ways) we could copy the lanes / items we want to the uppermost comp lane?
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Old 03-13-2022, 03:40 PM   #138
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So could the first lane become the comp lane and the lane that's currently second become the first? And then with razor edit (or other ways) we could copy the lanes / items we want to the uppermost comp lane?
I need to check the current behaviour again to be honest. Haven't had a look for a longer time. I'm hoping to find the time for that soon.
One more thing that bugs me: I think the "lane within a track" thing isn't really effective. If you record songs in parts there easily can be 30-50 takes throughout the song. You'll always be zooming in and out constantly. I don't understand why lanes aren't some kind of subtracts that can be folded and unfolded.
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Old 03-14-2022, 06:42 AM   #139
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Default Arrange area tabs or TCP buttons? Or both?

TL/DR: Tabs in the arrange view or buttons in the TCP? Much as I find tabs attractive, I think they're a sideshow as far as lane comping functions go*.

같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같 같같같같같같같같같같같같같
Each view has pros and cons - some would say why not have both. An issue with any of these is that of lane dragging/reordering, which might be more convenient with tabs (though not for the devs), but read on.

Tabs in the arrange view:
Pro: They are clear indicators, easy to access, and theme tolerant. L/H and R/H TCP display is unaffected.
Con: They don't get on with continuous scrolling; any more than a few context menu functions gets into submenu/modifier clutter.

Lane buttons in the TCP view:
Pro: Uniformity of UI - Lanes would be a button+context dialog like routing, automation, FX, etc. Easily accessible and expandable in a familiar way.
Con: Making space for lane buttons in every track uses space, even if no track has lanes. Will break some themes.

Tabs in the TCP view:
Pro: Hmmm.
Con: They compete for space with track icons (I've only started to use 1 or 2 icons after 12 years on Reaper, they work for scrolling large track lists), R/H TCP display doesn't work very well either.

*The best of both worlds would be a TCP button with a lane dialog, that used arrange view tabs as an indicator of the number of lanes, lane mute/solo status, etc. Possibly the drag/reorder function, too, but see below.
There's a nice mockup by Vagelis on the 6.51dev0311 forum of a track with a sort of 'comp lane' layout. Lanes in this track are like tracks in folders, and to me this is the way to go. These sub-lanes or whatever wouldn't (necessarily) need recording, metering, FX or routing functions; their sole purpose would be to send comp sections to the master lane. In these comp tracks' TCP section you could have the tab functions described above (yes, as well as tabs, IYL)
This would mean you could select sections of different lanes, set them to 'Comp' or whatever and they would play through your 'comp lane' without having to do anything else.

Got to be a better name than 'comp lane' though.

Thx for reading.
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Old 03-14-2022, 09:08 AM   #140
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Con: any more than a few context menu functions gets into submenu/modifier clutter.
Are you sur?

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Old 03-14-2022, 09:14 AM   #141
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Are you sur?

For me looks very clean and compact.
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Old 03-14-2022, 05:50 PM   #142
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Are those composite tabs or something? Not context menus,for sure.
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Old 03-14-2022, 08:14 PM   #143
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Are you sur?

there will be, probably, more buttons than that
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Old 03-15-2022, 03:16 AM   #144
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I would love to always record on the top lane and if overwriting an item that item would move down to a free or new lane. That would be fantastic
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Old 03-16-2022, 08:38 AM   #145
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there will be, probably, more buttons than that
But we can add lot of buttons, too...

It will never be over the items. So, it will more space for more buttons outstide the TCP than inside.
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Old 03-21-2022, 10:56 AM   #146
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I'm loving what I'm seeing so far. I hope these suggestions/FRs might fit well/easily:
  • Option to show only [play only] lane
  • Actions: Fixed Lane: Change [play only] lane to next/previous lane
  • Target lane for recording (and/or pasting) My preference would be to combine Takes with Fixed Lanes, where new recordings create new takes in target lane (thus facilitating a workflow similar to yet more powerful than ProTools playlists).
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Old 03-21-2022, 11:21 AM   #147
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I'm loving what I'm seeing so far. I hope these suggestions/FRs might fit well/easily:
  • Option to show only [play only] lane
  • Actions: Fixed Lane: Change [play only] lane to next/previous lane
  • Target lane for recording (and/or pasting) My preference would be to combine Takes with Fixed Lanes, where new recordings create new takes in target lane (thus facilitating a workflow similar to yet more powerful than ProTools playlists).
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Old 03-24-2022, 01:50 PM   #148
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is there an average amount of time between pre-release and release? Wondering if we're looking at weeks or months before some version of Track Lanes becomes available. I know that nothing can be said with any certainty though.
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Old 04-19-2022, 07:53 PM   #149
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I'm loving what I'm seeing so far. I hope these suggestions/FRs might fit well/easily:
  • Option to show only [play only] lane
  • Actions: Fixed Lane: Change [play only] lane to next/previous lane
  • Target lane for recording (and/or pasting) My preference would be to combine Takes with Fixed Lanes, where new recordings create new takes in target lane (thus facilitating a workflow similar to yet more powerful than ProTools playlists).
These features + the ability to reorder the track lanes would IMHO make this feature "complete" enough to use for production workflows.
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Old 05-10-2022, 06:37 PM   #150
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I think it would be nice to have actions:
move/copy an element to a line, which creates a new line inside the track.
move/copy an element to a line, which creates a new line on the selected track.
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Old 05-11-2022, 04:44 PM   #151
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Default some thoughts on media item fixed lanes

Hi, I'm very interested in the media item fixed lanes feature being developed. The main idea, as far as I can tell, is to provide an alternative to the takes system. There's an option to record to fixed lanes rather than takes, which presumably means that alternatives to other things associated with the takes system may be coming, e.g. swipe comping via razor edits rather than the usual way of comping takes.

Is that what this is all about? Or is this feature being developed for some other purpose I'm missing?

If that is the idea - and I don't want to discourage the work being done on this - I wonder whether an opportunity is being missed.

Something like the above would certainly be very welcome as far it goes. It would allow the swipe comping workflow a lot of people seem to like in some other DAWs but it would be useful to have the more general ability to have different 'item sets' associated with one track (including the option of no items), to view these item sets all at once or one at a time, to duplicate and move item sets around, to rename and add notes to different, and to switch between them quickly and easily. I at least would find it very useful for all sorts of reasons, especially to do with composition and making arrangement decisions.

Currently, I'm using a mixture of SWS Resources and BirdBird's excellent Track Versions script to meet my track versioning needs but it would be great to have a native solution that fits with Reaper's philosophy but goes beyond the comping use case.

Personally, I'd prefer a function like swipe comping to be brought in through a variation on razor editing (e.g. 'Swazor editing' that fires razor-selected material up to a selected track upon release of the mouse button) rather than through a fixed lane system that may not help with other scenarios where you want different item sets associated with one track.

Would be interested in others' thoughts on fixed lanes for comping versus a more flexible track versioning system.
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Old 05-12-2022, 01:08 AM   #152
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Hi, I'm very interested in the media item fixed lanes feature being developed. The main idea, as far as I can tell, is to provide an alternative to the takes system. There's an option to record to fixed lanes rather than takes, which presumably means that alternatives to other things associated with the takes system may be coming, e.g. swipe comping via razor edits rather than the usual way of comping takes.

Is that what this is all about? Or is this feature being developed for some other purpose I'm missing?

If that is the idea - and I don't want to discourage the work being done on this - I wonder whether an opportunity is being missed.

Something like the above would certainly be very welcome as far it goes. It would allow the swipe comping workflow a lot of people seem to like in some other DAWs but it would be useful to have the more general ability to have different 'item sets' associated with one track (including the option of no items), to view these item sets all at once or one at a time, to duplicate and move item sets around, to rename and add notes to different, and to switch between them quickly and easily. I at least would find it very useful for all sorts of reasons, especially to do with composition and making arrangement decisions.

Currently, I'm using a mixture of SWS Resources and BirdBird's excellent Track Versions script to meet my track versioning needs but it would be great to have a native solution that fits with Reaper's philosophy but goes beyond the comping use case.

Personally, I'd prefer a function like swipe comping to be brought in through a variation on razor editing (e.g. 'Swazor editing' that fires razor-selected material up to a selected track upon release of the mouse button) rather than through a fixed lane system that may not help with other scenarios where you want different item sets associated with one track.

Would be interested in others' thoughts on fixed lanes for comping versus a more flexible track versioning system.
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=263660
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Old 05-12-2022, 01:42 AM   #153
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Well made Sexan! My pain point #1 is the comping system and this one seems to make it go 80% of the way. But IMO a solution (even this) would hopefully be natively integrated, so such an important feature doesn't rely on a 3rd party's time to maintain it.
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Old 05-12-2022, 01:58 AM   #154
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Well made Sexan! My pain point #1 is the comping system and this one seems to make it go 80% of the way. But IMO a solution (even this) would hopefully be natively integrated, so such an important feature doesn't rely on a 3rd party's time to maintain it.
I hope that too . Some third party implemenations give devs ideas. Thats why in some cases we do it in scripts for everyone to get bigger picture
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Old 05-12-2022, 11:06 AM   #155
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This is all incredible work you guys, and being super respectful towards the time put into it when adding opinions here so please know that!

Our current Takes system of comping, despite splits being an absolute nightmare, is super fast once you know how to avoid making a total mess.

I fear that these lane implementations will be slower and more complex than the current Takes system, meanwhile this is an opportunity to use all the things that the Reaper Takes system did do amazingly (and sometimes better than all other DAWs) while correcting all the things that make it inferior.

What takes currently do well for comping:

1. once the take boundaries are set, you can fly through the takes with single clicks/keystrokes. No soloing lanes, no unnecessary GUIs or interactions - just bam bam bam, listen to all 30 versions of a phrase so quickly.


What sucks:

1. Splits. Here are 4 takes.


Wat.

2. No independence of lanes. If you manipulate a take you are affecting the entire container. Nudging, stretching, etc are all "destructive actions" that can be impossible to revert. The original takes should remain untouched!

3. Adding media from other sections of the project "into the container" is absolute lunacy and almost impossible. Example - you want to combine the 1st Chorus takes with the 2nd Chorus takes and comp from ALL of them - you have to create a new track, move the 2nd chorus stuff underneath the 1st chorus stuff, ensure the splits kind of line up, use the Implode action which almost never work properly, and if this spans multiple splits the Imploded takes actually can go out of "lane-sync" across the split boundary.




4. Related to above - if you want to take a single phrase/word from another section of the song and paste it, you are essentially DELETING everything that was there before! With lanes you'd just add it to new lanes at that location and promote them - everything stays intact.

5. ARA stuff absolutely doesn't play well with any of this. Melodyne loves "top lane comp" DAWs and dies very quickly when it has to keep track of every split and every take. VocAlign loves "top lane comp" DAWs because it expects similarly sized items, which in Reaper requires rendering the track which basically ruins the ability to make any changes easily!

etc, etc, etc.
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Old 05-12-2022, 11:22 AM   #156
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Lanes addresses almost all of the above, if done a certain way.

1. Swipe-comping (like the scripts!) to promote as active
2. Once active, retain the ability to "cycle through" all the options within that boundary with a keystroke. Change those boundaries with a swipe!
3. a quick "solo lane" if you want to audition a specific lane/section without messing with the active comp
4. the active comp be separately editable from the takes, as in No Splits happen to the takes during the comping process!
5. the active comp be The Only Thing sent to Melodyne. Currently Everything In The Lanes is sent!
6. Versioning
7. Everything be collapsable! Just like takes currently work...the bounds of the collapsed container be defined by the left edge of the earliest-in-time take and the right edge of the furthest-in-time take - just like every other DAW.
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Old 05-12-2022, 01:56 PM   #157
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This still feels like the best model so far (way to go BirdBird).

Solo Markers defining the audible comp, just like Logic. Quick swipe, bam that's what gets promoted as audible. Takes stay perfect, save multiple options for comps, move stuff in and out of the lanes easily, it's just clean and simple.

If we had the above, and the ability to "cycle" the lanes between the Solo Marker boundaries, we'd essentially have all the benefits of Reaper Take comping with all the benefits of lanes, and no splits!
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Old 05-12-2022, 02:46 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by ferropop View Post


This still feels like the best model so far (way to go BirdBird).

Solo Markers defining the audible comp, just like Logic. Quick swipe, bam that's what gets promoted as audible. Takes stay perfect, save multiple options for comps, move stuff in and out of the lanes easily, it's just clean and simple.

If we had the above, and the ability to "cycle" the lanes between the Solo Marker boundaries, we'd essentially have all the benefits of Reaper Take comping with all the benefits of lanes, and no splits!
I would disagree. How do you have multiple comps here? How do you edit them?
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Old 05-12-2022, 03:02 PM   #159
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I would disagree. How do you have multiple comps here? How do you edit them?
Sexan I just mean as the selection process for what is audible. This would still require a "top track" which would hold the multiple comps.

Basically saying this is a much better system than the current splits for take bounds, and superior to using Razor Edits because you can visually see the guides across all takes for the bounds, again without using splits.

But yes, this isn't a complete solution - just for the "selecting what you want to be audible" part of comping.
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Last edited by ferropop; 05-12-2022 at 08:56 PM.
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Old 05-12-2022, 03:09 PM   #160
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Sexan I just mean as the selection process for what is audible. This would still require a "top track" which would hold the multiple comps.

Basically saying this is a much better system than the current splits for take bounds, and superior to using Razor Edits because you can visually see the guides across all takes for the bounds, again without using splits.

But yes, this isn't a complete solution - just for the "selecting what you want to be audible" process.
Oh, sorry I've misunderstood
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