Old 06-03-2008, 08:39 PM   #1
Lawrence
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Default Menu Organization Nitpick

The menu structure has been nagging me from day one and the more I use it (being a sit back and mouse kinda guy) the more illogical it seems. Nothing to do with functionality, but ergonomics and transferrence of thought patterns from other applications, not even daws.

Example: How do you call the transport menu when the transport is hidden? Those items scatter all over the place and some are nowhere else, and some shouldn't even be there. Say I put the big clock up in the corner and hide the transport during mixing for a tad more screen space. Some of the items from that menu scatter to various other menu headers.

There is no top-level Transport menu to bring those items together on the main window nor a main Media menu to bring all media related functions together in one single place with minimal nesting.

Some nested transport menu items are just plain illogical - Play, Record, Pause, Stop. Why would anyone right-click the transport and then click a link to another nested menu and then click that menu item to play or stop etc when they can just click the button on the transport bar they right-clicked on in the first place?

Some things that should be there are in another top-level application menu with no easily apparent (to me) relevance to their placement on another menu. On the left is a tightly grouped Transport menu with nothing else. On the right is a mixture of things that appear in various other places in the top level menus. I know where they are here but after using them there... often finding them in there scattered positions is more difficult.



Adding that menu *also* to a top-level window menu would be better I think as it would allow grouping them logically.

There's 2 transport functions in the View menu "Go to Cursor & Play Cursor" that don't exist in the transport menu.

You can navigate to markers from there but you can't create new ones, which is a transport function, managing markers. To create markers with the menu you go to a different place, the Insert menu... where you insert files, but not in the file menu.

The right-click media menu also feels scattered to me with things dealing with takes being in different places. Apply FX to Take (3 items which are take editing functions) are seperated from some other take editing functions in a nested menu that has take navigation functions (next / previous) grouped with take editing functions (delete, crop, duplicate) ... while there are other take editing functions dealing with applying individual take FX in higher level root menu popup media menu. At the least all those should be grouped logically in one single menu level.

And none of it's on (I don't think) the top level window menu. If everything dealing with Takes was *also* under one top-level menu and grouped logically by function, it would much easier to remember where they are at any given time when you have 45 other things going through your brain during a session.

Shouldn't there also be a "Takes" menu up top with all of that stuff grouped logically under one header?

It's a little confusing and hard to keep track of where things are for me in practice as it doesn't seem to follow any logical pattern.



There's lots of things like that in the menu structure which I find hard to grasp. "Insert Media" should be expanded (and maybe on the File menu since any media you insert is a file) but isn't. When I go to insert *any* media I already know what type I'm going to get, audio, midi or video. The lack of menu seperation of those media types means I have to filter them in the dialog when I go to insert.

So even if it stays on the INSERT menu give me 3 menu items so when I go looking for audio, I only see audio in the dialog. That menu is pretty short and can easily handle two items to seperate those classes. There's also plenty of top-level menu bar space for some of the stuff that's buried down in two levels of nested menus and then a popup dialog.

The only thing that would change is that new users would much more easily be able to navigate those menus.

Final Example: (possible 200th macro aside)

1. Right click media item.
2. Select Item Properties
3. Click "choose new file" button.
4. Open a window that shows every type of media file type Reaper can import as if you'd swap a video file with a midi file?
5. Change the filter to match the type of file you want and hide the rest.
6. Find and change the file.

Or maybe someday just go to the File menu and click "Choose New File" and have the default dialog filter match the selected file type? Should not anything dealing with files be there in the File menu? That would be the first place anyone would look.

End of nitpick... any errors above apologized for in advance. It's... unusual. I spend lots of time pausing looking around the menus trying to find something that should be logically close to something similar.

Please: Transport menu, Media menu, and Takes menu at the top level of the application window with everything relevant beneath them. Thanks.

Last edited by Lawrence; 06-04-2008 at 02:34 AM.
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Old 06-04-2008, 01:01 AM   #2
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tell you what i would like - autohiding of unused menu items, like you used to get on Office 97.

those menus are huge, man, so if options you hadn't used for a while just got hidden away it would mean you'd end up with a much shorter menu showing the commands you use frequently.
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Old 06-04-2008, 04:10 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hourglass View Post
tell you what i would like - autohiding of unused menu items, like you used to get on Office 97.

those menus are huge, man, so if options you hadn't used for a while just got hidden away it would mean you'd end up with a much shorter menu showing the commands you use frequently.
++1
++1
++1
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Old 06-04-2008, 06:45 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
Please: Transport menu, Media menu, and Takes menu at the top level of the application window with everything relevant beneath them. Thanks.
++1

Yep - I nagree with all of that and would like to add:

"Recent" menue as top level menue - just so much easier that way!


Cheers

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Old 06-04-2008, 06:48 AM   #5
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+1

There is definitely a "seek out and explore strange new menus" aspect to learning Reaper. Sure, you can get used to it eventually, but for less used commands a more logical presentation would reduce a lot of time spent searching.

Would also be nice if the "Insert Media File..." and "Insert New MIDI item" commands were added to the right-click menu when clicking on the timeline for a selected track (would probably have to be disabled if multiple tracks were selected)
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Old 06-04-2008, 08:32 AM   #6
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There is definitely a "seek out and explore strange new menus" aspect to learning Reaper. Sure, you can get used to it eventually, but for less used commands a more logical presentation would reduce a lot of time spent searching.
Yup........

Last edited by Lawrence; 06-04-2008 at 08:36 AM.
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Old 06-04-2008, 10:21 AM   #7
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Perhaps an xml format for the menu files so the user could arrange the menus in a fashion suitable to what they prefer? I did this with firefox and it makes all the difference in my browsing experience.
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Old 06-04-2008, 11:52 AM   #8
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++1 to hide what you do not use in the menus.
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Old 06-04-2008, 12:55 PM   #9
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Perhaps a user definable menu chaps? One you can add your favorites too? with separators to keep things organized.


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Old 06-04-2008, 01:18 PM   #10
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Maybe, care to elaborate a bit Alex, maybe even a small mock up?
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Old 06-04-2008, 02:31 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by labyrinth View Post
Maybe, care to elaborate a bit Alex, maybe even a small mock up?
I'm not Alex but...

http://movielibrary.lynda.com/html/p...80&redirect=no

Would not that be very useful in Reaper?

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Old 06-04-2008, 02:33 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post

Would not that be very useful in Reaper?
no, not really.






































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Old 06-04-2008, 02:47 PM   #13
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JBM you dog... how about this?

I can leave the defaults alone, create a new top-level menu (and/or new menu or new nest inside an existing menu), name it anything I want and build an entirely new menu list from the existing available menu items. MY NEW MENU below could list anything I want.

Obviously you can also remove anything you want from anywhere.



Corel Draw 8. Any menu item can be moved anywhere by drag and drop. You can arrange them any way you like... including the seperators. If I could do this in Reaper I would rearrange a lot of stuff.

You can also create new seperators to group things more in tune with how you think. Corel has LOTS of menus like Reaper ... they thought this through really well.

For the non-programmers out there the "&" marks the shortcut key letter so you can edit your ALT shortcuts by editing the menu text and moving the & behind another letter - ALT(x). Of course you can also change the actual text on the menu to make more sense if it doesn't.

This is what makes great software great, doing things that other apps don't do.. like Reaper's routing... this is exceptional.

Optionally in Reaper it would maybe store the custom setup in an xml and recall the default at any time?





Wouldn't you move menus around in Reaper if you could?

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Old 06-04-2008, 03:01 PM   #14
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to answer your question L-Dawg... Yes I would.

and ++1 to this bad boi!



.t


edit: and the what's new menu colorization in CS2 is kewl and worthy of snatching IMHO.
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Old 06-04-2008, 04:03 PM   #15
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edit: and the what's new menu colorization in CS2 is kewl and worthy of snatching IMHO.
That is very cool... the entire menu color thing.

But given a choice between the two if I could only have one ... (color and/or hide vs. move and/or edit and/or hide) I'd pick the latter any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

You wouldn't have to adapt to anyone else's logic when it comes to menu structure, you make it whatever you want... which removes the need for color. Again, as a (rudimentary) coder, placement of application menus comes down to two things...

1. Window's standards need to be followed for some things. File (and usually Edit) first and Help last on the top level for example.

2. Most of the rest (and almost everything inside the rest) is driven by the coders logical view of where they should go (and personal preference)... which is often a singular (or dual in this case) point of view based on how he or she thinks and works... or an assumption of how others will prefer to work.

Think about it logically from a "range of motion" point of view for a person using the mouse ...

You must pass over the toolbar with the mouse to get to the options menu so any toolbar option duplicated in the options menu should logically be located at the very bottom of the menu (if at all, you're already in range of the toolbar?), allowing the things that aren't as easily accessed in that area where you *must* be anyway faster access, closer to the top of the menu. I'd move them around that way. I'd be moving the mouse around much less.

Preferences is currently placed very logically at the bottom which drives the user to use the toolbar since you have to go past the preference button anyway to click Options and get to preferences on the menu with the mouse way back down the screen. It drives you to use the button. Logical if it absolutely has to be there I suppose but I'd remove it altogether. Why?

The mouse user *has* to visit that area to get a menu - he has no choice. Force users to use the preference button if using the mouse... you can't hide the toolbar so it's always there... so ? Unnecessary menu items, on that side of the screen anyway, unnecssary movement.

The ripple editing menu item is 1/2 inch from (and an extra click from) the tool button that does the same thing but "Scroll during Playback" is way down the menu. Not logical. Same with snapping, you pass over the snap button to get to the options menu to toggle snap on/off with the menu while stuff that's not on the toolbar requires traveling back down the menu to get to it with the mouse.

Either add some of that stuff to the toolbar or move them up the menu list for tighter physical grouping of more different functions?

If the user can't change it you have no choice but to adapt. Corel removed that obstacle completely and forever. Reaper should (imo) do similar. It would be no different from loading a custom keystroke file in practice. It might not make sense to anyone else, but it fits you perfectly.

Anything I chose to duplicate from the toolbar in menus would be way across the screen on one of the menus way on the right or right-middle, up near the top of a menu, over where the toolbar *isn't*... so when I'm working over *there* I can get it faster without sliding all the way over to the left to click an options menu with the mouse where the toolbar already is. Or a button near where a duplicate menu item is.

They offer no advantage and make no sense where they are now (they also disadvantage the other menu items below them) and serve absolutely no useful purpose. Moved farther over to the right under another menu up high like that they would suddenly become useful in both respects. See what I mean?

I think I've said more than enough about this... letting it go.

Last edited by Lawrence; 06-04-2008 at 06:55 PM.
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Old 06-05-2008, 06:58 AM   #16
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I would love to see a more Corel approach, so that things could be this adjustable. There are so many choices that it slows me down in editing. I mean you can only remember so many key commands to avoid using the menus entirely.
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Old 06-05-2008, 08:26 AM   #17
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tell you what i would like - autohiding of unused menu items, like you used to get on Office 97.
Hmm.

Good for some folks, but not for others.

Good for the experienced user, not so good for the learner.

A typical forum discussion:-

NOOB: Can someone please help me - I've looked everywhere but I can't find the option to de-scrunge my grunnocks.
REAPERDUDE: Um, have you ever done it before?
NOOB: Er .. no.
REAPERDUDE: Ah, well - there you go then. It's probably hidden.
NOOB: WTF?!

So maybe have an option for this option?
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Old 06-05-2008, 08:30 AM   #18
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Quote:
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those menus are huge, man, so if options you hadn't used for a while just got hidden away it would mean you'd end up with a much shorter menu showing the commands you use frequently.
let's quote my whole post, shall we?
and, "have you looked in all the menus?" would be no less facetious a reply to such a noob than "have you read the manual?"

but yes, optional. hell, everything that's ever suggested is requested as optional...
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Last edited by hourglass; 06-05-2008 at 08:32 AM. Reason: added clarity, if such a thing can be believed :O)
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Old 06-05-2008, 08:40 AM   #19
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OK.

It's a fair cop, hourglass!

Maybe I was being a tad silly there.
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Old 06-05-2008, 08:44 AM   #20
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don't apologise... i still feel bad for essentially hijacking Lawrence's thread.

maybe a nice mod could come along and separate them, since there does now appear to be two distinct trains of thought going on (when i first posted, i thought this was just a general "what should change about the menus" thing)...
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Old 06-05-2008, 10:38 AM   #21
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No hijack. I tried to think of a way to explain the problem without using so many words... but it's hard because it's a fluid process from a->b->c it's all relevant to the frustration.

It's hard to convey the problem in a few sentences.
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Old 06-06-2008, 02:31 AM   #22
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Quote:
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I would love to see a more Corel approach, so that things could be this adjustable. There are so many choices that it slows me down in editing. I mean you can only remember so many key commands to avoid using the menus entirely.
Labyrinth,
Lawrence showed the idea far better than i could. The facility to build a user menu would be ideal, not only for common options, but, for example, those who are more audio or midi centric, could set up the menu relevant to their workflow. Given the extremely open and malleable options already available in Reaper, i can see this a natural extension of that paradigm.

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