Old 10-30-2018, 06:41 PM   #1
clepsydrae
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Default Mid/Side Pin Routing

I'd love the ability to route mid and side of incoming and outgoing channels in the pin routing!

Note the "M/S" button that enables/disables the mid side channels, so users wouldn't have to be bothered with them if they aren't interested.

This would save a lot of clutter in the plugin chains.

When I first came to Reaper one of the first things I noticed was the "mix" knob on every plugin, so you could mix wet/dry if the plugin developer didn't provide for it, and I thought "duh, every DAW should have that, and no developer should have to bother; reaper is awesome". Seems like M/S splitting falls into the same category: simple* to implement and saves a lot of friction.

Am I the only one? :-)



* I know, I know. Simple from the end user perspective, at least. :-)

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Old 10-30-2018, 10:18 PM   #2
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As you easily can use a simple (JSFX) plugin to convert L/R to M/S, there is no need for this to be implemented in the DAW itself, bloating same.

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Old 10-30-2018, 10:25 PM   #3
clepsydrae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
As you easily can use a simple (JSFX) plugin to convert L/R to M/S, there is no need for this to be implemented in the DAW itself.
Avoiding use of the 2 necessary JSFX's is the reason for the FR! :-)

Also, if you want to route mid and side somewhere unusual, and in addition to the normal L/R, you have to add extra JSFX, do pin routing on those, etc. Imagine if you want to extract M/S from a stereo stream, route normal L/R into a compressor and mid to the sidechain of the compressor; you have to add two extra JSFX with pin routing on both (unless there's a way I'm not seeing). With this you have one effect slot, and a couple clicks to get it done.

Note that you can use a couple JSFX's and pin routing to do a dry/wet mix for a plugin, too, but it's great to just have the knob and not have to mess with all of that.

Seems to me that M/S processing is gaining in popularity (maybe wishful thinking) and at least mastering engineers would likely appreciate this?
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Old 10-30-2018, 10:44 PM   #4
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I guess it will born different issues with how to represent it in GUI (could be a real mess for end user!).

Quote:
extract M/S from a stereo stream, route normal L/R into a compressor and mid to the sidechain of the compressor
I don`t there is a need here to specific pin routing. You can actually surround any focused plugin to process M/S instead L/R processing by something like this lua code (kanaka decode is installed with REAPER usually):

Code:
function main()
  retval, tracknumber, itemnumber, fxnumber = reaper.GetFocusedFX()
  if retval < 1 then return end
  tr = reaper.CSurf_TrackFromID( tracknumber, false )
  enc_id = reaper.TrackFX_AddByName( tr, 'JS:Tools/KanakaMSEncoder1', false, 1 ) 
  dec_id = reaper.TrackFX_AddByName( tr, 'JS:Tools/KanakaMS5', false, 1 )
  reaper.TrackFX_CopyToTrack( tr, enc_id, tr, fxnumber, true )
  if  fxnumber+2 ~= dec_id then reaper.TrackFX_CopyToTrack( tr, dec_id, tr, fxnumber+2, true ) end
end

reaper.Undo_BeginBlock()
main()
reaper.Undo_EndBlock( 'MS surround focused FX', 0 )
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Old 10-30-2018, 10:48 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpl View Post
I guess it will born different issues with how to represent it in GUI (could be a real mess for end user!).
Did you not like how it looked in the image I posted above?

Quote:
You can actually surround any focused plugin to process M/S instead L/R processing by something like this lua code
Thanks! That could be handy.

I still think that the flexibility of MS through pin routing would be neat. But looks like I'm 0 for 2 so far in terms of forum agreement.
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Old 10-30-2018, 10:56 PM   #6
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Quote:
Did you not like how it looked in the image I posted above?
So user opens pin routing and see plugin has M/S inputs? The frustration coming at least from here. That`s wrong, the channels coming into plugin, there couldn`t be a MidSide input. Only plugin decide what to do with channels. You can say it can be a check or something "Process plugin with MS", but this makes useless actual plugin window that check placed on. It also seems a mess if user click (acidentally or by design) MidSide checks AND regular LR input, so the pins you suggested requires to behave as a toggle, which makes pin API more complex as it is (belive me it is pretty hard to understand even from scripter side).

From my point of view, I`ll better request to optionally hide plugins from FX chain/mixer (like tracks in arrange), but have something like FX manager to be able to show them again. Worse as a concept, but way easier to implement.
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Old 10-30-2018, 11:07 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by mpl View Post
So user opens pin routing and see plugin has M/S inputs?
No -- they see pin routing as normal. If they click the "M/S" button it enables the "virtual" M/S channels so they can convert the normal L/R channels to mid/side before they go in to the plugin.

But I realize there is a mistake in my image: the output channels should be 1 and 2 as normal (i.e. just the output of the plugin, whatever it was going in, whether mid/side or normal) and the "virtual" outputs are the conversion from mid/side back to L/R. So they should probably be labeled something like:

VST Out 1
VST Out 2
VST Out 1+2
VST Out 1-2

[image now updated]

The overall flexibility is that they have both normal and mid/side versions of the channels coming in and out and can route them as they see fit.
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Old 10-31-2018, 09:15 AM   #8
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I'm sure I'm missing the obvious but wouldn't it be simpler to just click the M/S button and the incoming channels are now M/S without pin changes? Essentially, that's just putting an encoder in front when enabled but I assume at some point it needs to exit as stereo?

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Old 10-31-2018, 09:37 AM   #9
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If you don't want to use the pins the free voxengo msed is fantastic
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Old 10-31-2018, 10:06 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
I'm sure I'm missing the obvious but wouldn't it be simpler to just click the M/S button and the incoming channels are now M/S without pin changes? Essentially, that's just putting an encoder in front when enabled but I assume at some point it needs to exit as stereo?
It would be simpler, yeah, and would be handy too, but it loses the ability to route both regular and M/S around in novel ways. E.g. my example above of wanting the regular stereo pair and M/S channels available to one plugin. That now requires extra plugin slots and pin routing to achieve. But yeah, I'd be happy to have what you describe as well: for any stereo pair of pins on the way in, click a tiny button to convert them to M/S, and for any pair on the way out, click to do 1+2 and 1-2 to convert back to regular.

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Old 10-31-2018, 10:16 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clepsydrae View Post
route normal L/R into a compressor and mid to the sidechain of the compressor
Mid being L+R, you just assign both of channels 1/2 to both of the sidechain inputs. The input pins act as a very efficient mixer. Side is the "hard part".

All it really takes for both encode and decode is the ability to invert the channels. THAT would get my vote. THEN you could have a script that sets a given set of channels to "M/S" mode at input or output or both. BUT you could also do other things which might could be useful sometimes.
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Old 12-15-2018, 12:23 PM   #12
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I made a feature request for the thing I mentioned above (individual channel inversion at routing pins), and included the idea of having buttons to quickly set it up for M/S encode and decode.
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Old 12-15-2018, 01:18 PM   #13
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+1 to that idea too, but it wouldn't work well for M/S, because mid isn't L+R it's (L+R)/2, otherwise you get a doubling of signal strength when you encode/decode.

Man, I love this FR. Wish I wasn't alone on it. :-)
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Old 12-15-2018, 02:57 PM   #14
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-1 to cluttering the main program by stuff that is seldom used and easily can be done by a free (JSFX) plugin.

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Old 12-16-2018, 05:52 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
-1 to cluttering the main program by stuff that is seldom used and easily can be done by a free (JSFX) plugin.
Then don't press the M/S button. The original FR states that the M/S channels appear only when M/S mode is enabled.

What "we" (can't speak of everyone) need is a better UI for channel routing within a track. IMHO adding a M/S encoder/decorder plugin would be a breeze. But of course this has been asked for many times and we can only hope.

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Old 12-16-2018, 10:01 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masi View Post
What "we" (can't speak of everyone) need is a better UI for channel routing within a track.
There was that pre-release a while back that demo'd a new UI for intra-track routing, right? (I didn't dream that, right?) I've had my fingers crossed that maybe some of that work is being used for a new pin routing interface and it'll all be in v6, but maybe that's wishful thinking. Unless the mob clamoring for pin/side routing is just late to this thread, it looks like it'll have to happen without much community begging if it happens at all.
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Old 12-16-2018, 03:34 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masi View Post
What "we" (can't speak of everyone) need is a better UI for channel routing within a track.
As you state: "better" is always depending on the point of view.

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Old 12-17-2018, 03:10 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
-1 to cluttering the main program by stuff that is seldom used and easily can be done by a free (JSFX) plugin.

-Michael
Come on, Michael. One checkbox is "cluttering"?

I don't really know how much M/S is used, but I do see it every now and then. Only one of my four preamps has an M/S switch, but if that's a reference, it's 25%.

I'm sure there are other features in Reaper that are even less used. Should we drop all of those?
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Old 12-17-2018, 08:40 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyrano View Post
Come on, Michael. One checkbox is "cluttering"?
Not really, but with more than just two channels, things are prone to get complicated.

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Old 12-17-2018, 09:09 AM   #20
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M/S uses only two channels and usually, there's only one M/S setup in use...

That's why hardware with more than one M/S channel is rare. If it even exists at all. I've never seen a preamp with more than one M/S pair.

So I see no reason to have it on all channels. It could be an option in the mixer display too, if it would be too much for the routing window.
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Old 12-17-2018, 11:54 AM   #21
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Hi, I'm all for some M/S action - don't know how it's best implemented but Daves suggestion seems smart

Perhaps an option to do it with each plugin, with controls for (solo, M/S and off/'mute') alongside with the existing "mix" knob on every plugin. Off/mute is what we already have, the solo would route audio directly from the track to only that pluging, and M/S would shuffle thru mid-side-both.

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Old 12-17-2018, 03:07 PM   #22
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hmm- it simply won't properly work with reaper's current routing 'flaw...
can nobody see this still? ... any advancing users noticed it at all?


why are people so blinded....



any1?
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