Old 01-22-2015, 02:04 PM   #41
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Well it's already been requested so I guess we'll see. You're folder idea does indeed work, it's all about work flow and choice. We have a lot more power now in the digital realm than we did with fixed boards.

This is all just trying to understand things and I think in a sense having been away from things for a while has left me a tad confused about how things used to work, how things can work, and how they do work. I think in some areas Reaper affords me the ability to see things I simply did out of muscle memory in the past and the flexibility and control inserts more concepts to deal with.
Wonderful! Exactly how I felt when I began to hate Logic. It took me some time to fall in love with Reaper - nowadays I go berserk if I watch somebody editing stuff in Logic. It's so effin' slow, and illogical
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Old 01-22-2015, 02:24 PM   #42
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I fell in love with Reaper super fast. Every day I learn new things and almost everything I used to have in Samplitude it has and does better. It also does/has shit I dreamed about that Samp didn't have. There are a few small missing things but over all Reaper is easily the most customizable work flow friendly DAW I've ever used.

In a way I'm glad I'm confused about some things because it means I've forgotten some of the terrible crap too heh. I am curious about this though. I almost wonder if maybe things like compression where post fader in Samp which is where I'm getting confused about my levels. Things like EQ and compression were built into the board and I don't think I ever used a 3rd party compressor/limiter to have to think about how signal was affected because of it's placement in the chain. Samplitudes mixer simply places various main stays in the chain. Which was how "real" boards where. There was no question if your channel strip had an EQ, every channel...HAD an EQ, send, pan, sub grouping, aux, insert...in Reaper what am I compressing when I throw something in the FX chain, base signal or post fader? You can kinda see in a way it doesn't matter, but the old me remembers very explicit pre post sections for effects.

I just need to realize there is different approach here in how I set up certain things. Make the default track FX chain always start with a volume and meter so I can see the initial recorded signal so I know what numbers I can shoot for when adding compression and control to things.
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Old 01-22-2015, 02:45 PM   #43
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Make the default track FX chain always start with a volume and meter so I can see the initial recorded signal so I know what numbers I can shoot for when adding compression and control to things.
Just recently a similar question came up - and I suggested that instead of a "gain" plugin in slot 1 I'd rather instantiate every new track with the "Volume (pre-FX)" envelope visible. Super convenient as you can immediately see the resulting waveform when you trim or automate it.
(Bind it to a shortcut and you're even faster than clicking the plugin)
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Old 01-22-2015, 02:55 PM   #44
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You mentioned 2 things that throw me off: 1) that you were using a VU meter (they have different response than peak meters) and 2) you were comparing the track meter to the master meter.

I threw in a single track looping on one word and I made sure that my master meter was set to "Peak". Note that you can set it to only display RMS or have RMS and Peak at the same time, there are 2 numbered readings in that case.

The plugin, track, and master are all reading the same here.

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Old 01-22-2015, 02:58 PM   #45
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I put in a feature request for something similar but for the over all mix so you can visually asses the project as a whole and see where things need some trimming. I also noted that would be nice on a track by track basis as well for situations when a 60+ track project might be too much to render a rough wave outline of the entire track. Basically like a live version of freeze all and insert into a new project to stream line mastering.
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Old 01-22-2015, 03:05 PM   #46
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You mentioned 2 things that throw me off: 1) that you were using a VU meter (they have different response than peak meters) and 2) you were comparing the track meter to the master meter.

I threw in a single track looping on one word and I made sure that my master meter was set to "Peak". Note that you can set it to only display RMS or have RMS and Peak at the same time, there are 2 numbered readings in that case.

The plugin, track, and master are all reading the same here.

[/img]
Could you pls tell where to find master vu Settings, Manual doesn´t find anything about Master VU Settings !?
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Old 01-22-2015, 03:06 PM   #47
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right click it Set for peak, rms or both
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Old 01-22-2015, 03:07 PM   #48
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Wow - multichannel peak metering in the master channel? Wasn't aware of that!
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Old 01-22-2015, 03:09 PM   #49
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right click it Set for peak, rms or both
Thanks, that way I tried it first, but now I ve found out that it only works in Mixer view with bigger sliders !

what does Display Offset mean, I have 14 dB ?
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Old 01-22-2015, 03:21 PM   #50
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djjedidiah Well VU Meter is simply the name of the JS plugin. It's not emulating a real VU style meter. There are a few that are classic VU style needles but this is just volume in, volume out.

As for comparing to the main I'm not sure in what content you mean because so many situational examples have been tossed out. I'm also very tired but I've had a number of times where things don't line up here. I'm not saying things are fucked per-say just I think there is a misunderstanding about how/where things are taking place. I saw many posts about these same issues.
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Old 01-22-2015, 03:34 PM   #51
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I don't understand how having a track prefader meter will help you between plugins of your effects chain. Most plugins that process based on the input level have input metering. And, a lot of plugins have output metering as well. Almost all have an output that's adjustable. Actually, I cannot think of a single plugin that I use where you cannot adjust the output. And, I think most of the Melda plugins have AGC (Automatic Gain Compensation) which is being implemented on a lot of plugins nowadays. Besides, if you want to know at any time what your track's signal level is you can always turn the fader up to 0.00 dB. You can probably even Cntrl+Z that fader adjustment if you don't want to write it down or remember the previous fader setting.

I only used Cubase before Reaper for many years. If there was track prefader metering then I was unaware of that feature. The track meters in Reaper perform exactly the way I expected coming from Cubase.

Yes, you can exceed 0dB output in any of your plugins without clipping the track. And you can exceed 0dB in a bunch of tracks without clipping the Mains. It's only when you turn up the main fader and it clips the 0dBFS AND you render it that it will truly clip.

I mean the metering between plugins is no different than it was with hardware. If your created an effects chain with gear then the signal never went back to the board for metering in between (I've never had the pleasure of using a board with per-track meters). You had to rely on the gear meters, if there were any, and your ears if there were not. You can, and probably should, always check the levels coming out of each plugin using the bypass and your ears to make sure the input & output level stays "perceptively" the same regardless of what the meters indicate. So, you can verify the quality of the processing without being swayed by the "Louder is better" effect. This is especially true for dynamics processing.

Or, again, while setting up your effect chain settings you can leave the track fader at 0.00 dB. Then you can meter the output of each plugin with all subsequent plugins in bypass. Nest the track in a folder if you have to. But, I would think that is easier/faster than adding a meter plugin in between each effect in the chain.

Pre/post fader settings in my mind always had to do with Send effects, not inserts.

The clip indicator is nice, but only really crucial when recording and rendering. I don't think I've heard any plugin clip from the input being overloaded. Aren't they all running at 32 bit floating point which doesn't really clip?
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Old 01-22-2015, 03:41 PM   #52
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Oh, I forgot to mention. GVST's GComp has a display that shows your compression's effect on the waveform in realtime. Pretty cool! It has the output waveform (black) overlayed onto the input waveform (Gray).
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Old 01-22-2015, 03:52 PM   #53
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I don't think I've heard any plugin clip from the input being overloaded. Aren't they all running at 32 bit floating point which doesn't really clip?
If you should stumble upon Nebula ... never in your life you'll forget that nasty sound clipping the input!
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Old 01-22-2015, 03:58 PM   #54
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I mean the metering between plugins is no different than it was with hardware. If your created an effects chain with gear then the signal never went back to the board for metering in between (I've never had the pleasure of using a board with per-track meters). You had to rely on the gear meters, if there were any, and your ears if there were not. You can, and probably should, always check the levels coming out of each plugin using the bypass and your ears to make sure the input & output level stays "perceptively" the same regardless of what the meters indicate.
Exactly! I even have a console with both pre- and post-fader inserts, but there's no switch for respective metering. The meter bridge will* display the channel's output, post-fader (or, if I would re-patch 24 jumpers: pre-fader).
Never felt the need to monitor either-or.


* "would" - if I'd fix it
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Old 01-22-2015, 04:01 PM   #55
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Some of the things I use don't show in and out levels and I can't judge in some cases based on the meter. Indeed I could return the fader to it's notch but then you have to remember where it was in the mix. Given how many distractions I deal with that could mean re assessing where things sit in the mix more than I care to do.

Most boards I used didn't have metering either. You got a clip LED and GTFO

I found most outboard also lacked meters with the exception of compressors and limiters which were a mix of VU and LED arrays. This indeed left you guessing with your ears or "knowing" from time and experience if you got to use the same stuff over any period of time. However in the digital realm we shouldn't have to guess and many plugins don't have in and out monitoring. Sadly most seem more focused on fancy knobs and various retro non-sense than practicality. If I wanted big knobs (insert Beavis and Butthead joke here) and VU meters I'd still be working with reel to reel.

Sure you can leave your channel in it's notch (I won't say 0 because it's not 0 in Reaper) but as I've said then if you have to rethink/do things you have to bring it up to 0 again and throw your mix off while you redo things rather than just click a button to toggle the signal display.

32bit will clip iirc only 64bit has enough headroom that it becomes a theoretical joke. I've seen some discussions about this in my reading before I made this post as well and how 64bit precision is possibly responsible for Reaper showing different meter levels on a given piece of source material than other DAW's.

Earlier I had a EZ drummer track that right off the bat was red lining in the signal and while yes it didn't sound distorted etc being able to see the base output would have been nice. I had to throw the volume JS to get it under control so it wasn't trying to bull doze anything that came after it. While we could discuss the idea that if there is no audible distortion who cares 24 years of Pavlovian conditioning has told me RED CLIP == BAD!

The GComp features you mention sounds most useful. I do some times miss the grid view so I can see where the bulk of my track sits and how far out my peaks are. - Grabbed GComp, I like the visual display for sure, similar to what I've had in the past but brings up another issue for me. So many VST's are old and have TINY UI because they were designed back when we ran 800x600 resolutions haha. My god why doesn't anyone make a practical scalable UI for these things!?
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Old 01-22-2015, 04:14 PM   #56
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I've tested Reaper's metering and found it to be accurate to within +/-.5dB in all cases. And most of the .5 discrepancy comes from averaging of the dials and digital readouts being compared, not Reaper's lack of accuracy

Meanwhile, be aware that plugins are all over the chart as to how they meter, many calling -18dBfs as -0dB on their meters.

Also, know that Reaper's Master track meter is a different creature than the track meters, and I don't mean in how it might be set to 300ms where tracks might be set otherwise (can't remember at the moment).

I ought to add that I do use my ears (of course!), but I'm very visual when it comes to doing a lot in recording/mixing and I follow my levels intensely, especially at first and very last. I have had no issues metering, getting levels in Reaper, once I understood what and which levels they were chasing.

I guess what I'm really trying to point out here is that it's just not as simple as it's being made out to be here -- not here or on any DAW or VST.

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Old 01-22-2015, 04:41 PM   #57
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Many true points. Not all plugins are created equal and there are so many things that can happen. I feel like the conversation has kind of swayed back and forth between two sides and possibly overly the whole of the situation.

Initially there was discrepancies with levels. With various different levels showing in different areas of the chain. I also had some strange issues where a signal would be peaking below 0 but I'd get red clip indicators and the peak numeric would be over 0. I had a few screen shots of this early on.

From there perception of where the FX and fader were in the order of things wasn't clear. Though on some level ReaComp and ReaXcomp were the two things that threw up the most confusion. Almost as if they were some how activating post fader but controlling pre fader along with the clipping lights happening when signal wasn't strong enough to clip.

As as a whole it's a bit of a moot point because it's simply my perception that needs to adjust as I get more comfortable with various things and perhaps need to take in there may be issues with some of the Rea plugins rather than issues with Reapers core.

Things like the meter flutter and odd clip without clipping oddities seem to have vanished now that I'm using the Eareckon plugins.
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Old 01-22-2015, 06:05 PM   #58
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Some of the things I use don't show in and out levels and I can't judge in some cases based on the meter. Indeed I could return the fader to it's notch but then you have to remember where it was in the mix. Given how many distractions I deal with that could mean re assessing where things sit in the mix more than I care to do.

So many VST's are old and have TINY UI because they were designed back when we ran 800x600 resolutions haha. My god why doesn't anyone make a practical scalable UI for these things!?
That's why I recommended using a folder. You can set the track at notch for signal level metering and the parent folder for actual level and post fader metering.
Most free plugins don't get updated very often.
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I've tested Reaper's metering and found it to be accurate to within +/-.5dB in all cases.
This has been my experience as well.
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Initially there was discrepancies with levels. With various different levels showing in different areas of the chain. I also had some strange issues where a signal would be peaking below 0 but I'd get red clip indicators and the peak numeric would be over 0. I had a few screen shots of this early on.

From there perception of where the FX and fader were in the order of things wasn't clear. Though on some level ReaComp and ReaXcomp were the two things that threw up the most confusion. Almost as if they were some how activating post fader but controlling pre fader along with the clipping lights happening when signal wasn't strong enough to clip.

As as a whole it's a bit of a moot point because it's simply my perception that needs to adjust as I get more comfortable with various things and perhaps need to take in there may be issues with some of the Rea plugins rather than issues with Reapers core.

Things like the meter flutter and odd clip without clipping oddities seem to have vanished now that I'm using the Eareckon plugins.
I don't recall experiencing any of these issues, but I will keep a lookout for them in the future.
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Old 01-23-2015, 02:58 AM   #59
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I'm not saying the metering is wrong in an absolute sense but that it seems wrong because things are going strange in the signal chain the board meter doesn't reflect what I'm seeing in the chain. I'd really like to be able to "audition" the signal before attenuation. This was not an uncommon feature on boards much akin to switching input/playback routing on the fly. Normally this function switched the metering and audio source based on routing. Similar to the function DJ's use to cue up a track without sending to the mains.

If you view my screen shots you can see things like ReaComp showing input for threshold, output below 0 but then an over 0 indication. http://m0dw3rks.com/trans/Reaper_meter2.png You can see the brick wall is holding signal but then how the fuck am I +0.1? The forums are littered with posts about things like this where there is a 1 to 3db phantom difference in various situations. You could say as long as you don't hear overload pay it no mind but when I see things like this it makes me think something is wrong and I want to understand what is going on and correct it.

This was also the case where mains into ReaXcomp would show signal well into the red coming in and going out but then my main fader shows I'm -6. It bothers me the mains don't show they are attenuating an over loaded signal from the mix as a whole and there are visual warnings for things that may not be happening.
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Old 01-23-2015, 06:31 AM   #60
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I'm not saying the metering is wrong in an absolute sense but that it seems wrong because things are going strange in the signal chain the board meter doesn't reflect what I'm seeing in the chain. I'd really like to be able to "audition" the signal before attenuation. This was not an uncommon feature on boards much akin to switching input/playback routing on the fly. Normally this function switched the metering and audio source based on routing. Similar to the function DJ's use to cue up a track without sending to the mains.
I am not saying that the metering is 100% accurate either. Only that in my experience I haven't run into any issues that would make me question the accuracy of the meters. You haven't commented on the work-around that I suggested for using a folder track in conjunction with the actual track for pre-post metering. You wouldn't have to switch back and forth. Both meters would be up all the time unless you collapse the folder. You can duplicate the track. Make one the folder. Remove items/automation/FX from folder. Drop duplicate into folder (which is at the current fader level) and set the duplicate fader to 0.00 dB. Folder=Post attenuation metering. Child=Pre-fader (attenuation) metering. No settings have been lost or need to be remembered or written down.
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If you view my screen shots you can see things like ReaComp showing input for threshold, output below 0 but then an over 0 indication. http://m0dw3rks.com/trans/Reaper_meter2.png You can see the brick wall is holding signal but then how the fuck am I +0.1? The forums are littered with posts about things like this where there is a 1 to 3db phantom difference in various situations. You could say as long as you don't hear overload pay it no mind but when I see things like this it makes me think something is wrong and I want to understand what is going on and correct it.

This was also the case where mains into ReaXcomp would show signal well into the red coming in and going out but then my main fader shows I'm -6. It bothers me the mains don't show they are attenuating an over loaded signal from the mix as a whole and there are visual warnings for things that may not be happening.
I don't mean to disregard the clip indicator. That would annoy me as well. Honestly, I have never tried to use ReaComp as a limiter at infinity:1. Unfortunately, your screen shot does not tell me when the clip occurred. Only that there has been an above 0 dB event and that the indicator has not been cleared yet. Maybe you should try using a small amount of Pre-comp (look ahead). Perhaps the initial transient is somehow making it through due to system latency or something. When I get the chance I will attempt to recreate what you are experiencing.
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Old 01-23-2015, 07:14 AM   #61
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Actually I have commented on using folders as sub groups for this earlier in the conversation. Others have suggested it and I had been using it for other reasons before I even made the initial post. I don't have an issue with it per say. Normally I might say it's messy but I can change the fader type/theme so clean up some of the cruft of sub channels. The discussions in this thread come down to I need to take many things into consideration and create more templates for projects to anticipate all these issues.

In a way I have to wonder if this isn't the case too much info. I fired up Samplitude yesterday (I keep my last install in a VM for pulling up old projects) and while thins work as expected none of my plugs show the effect meter wise on the in and out signal to "warn" me of red lining. So without the audible cue it goes unheeded. In Reaper things do show you so when your input and output on the compressor still show red on both sides but your board meter shows no problem I get squirmy.

As for my screen shot the clip wasn't "before" the settings. Meaning I didn't play the track, have it peak, adjust ReaComp to brick wall then take the screen shot. Also you may notice that there is no momentary peak indicator. The meter will always hold the top peak for a moment but you can see in the screen shot there is no difference between the peak and the current signal because the brick wall is squashing and holding dead firm. So in a sense it's doing it's job. However I'm not saying I want brick wall my tracks into oblivion, just that is the signal is held at -10db where and why do I have phantom overages?
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