Old 12-15-2014, 07:35 AM   #1
chas51
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Default Reverb insert wet/dry vs send

I have long wondered about this.
I am going to start using the JSFX AB Level Matching plug-in, and it has reignited my interest in this:
it can really be summed up in this statement, that I just read at another forum, when trying to figure this out:
"I think what causes confusion here is that a reverb could also be used as an insert, as the effect itself usually has a variable wet and dry setting."

here's the scenario: you have a very simple recording project.
1 track that has 1 microphone recorded of a singer accompanying himself on acoustic guitar.
what is the difference whether you insert a Reverb, Delay, or such FX, or if you make another track, put a Reverb or Delay on it, and send Track 1 to it?

in the first case, using FX as an Insert, the wet/dry knob gives you control.
in the second case, using channel fader and/or the wet/dry knob gives you control.
I realize there is also the matter pre and/or post fader with this stuff.
anyway, this is what I want to get a better understanding of.
any thoughts greatly appreciated.
thanks alot,
Chas
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Old 12-15-2014, 08:05 AM   #2
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It depends on your workflow. For a single source needing reverb, and that reverb sounding good, then as an insert will do fine.

I place my reverbs on another track because with hardware, that was the way to work -this allows running several channels through it, EQ-ing of the reverb, and allows gain-staging tricks like running the send hot and then reducing the gain of the return -as many of the affordable FX boxes weren't that quiet.

In your DAW, using the buss approach allows for EQ-ing the send, the reverb itself, and of course the application of dynamics.

In large mixes, this also allows for clearer control too. Now all we need is VCAs so we can group and automate without destroying that balance


>

Last edited by planetnine; 12-15-2014 at 08:47 AM.
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Old 12-15-2014, 08:13 AM   #3
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If you use a send, it's easier (and less taxing on the computer) to send all the instruments to the same reverb so they sound like they are in the same room together. And you'll typically only have a few different reverbs going within a mix (usually less than 4 in my experience), so why use the extra processing power to put the verb on each track? (This isn't a big deal with only two tracks like in your example, but it can be a big help with more involved mixes).
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Old 12-15-2014, 08:49 AM   #4
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awesome you guys.
thank you very much for your excellent super helpful replies.
so then, simply stated:
the sound should be the same.
that is to say, in a very simple setup, like mine, there should be no difference sound-wise, between whether I use Reverb as a send or an insert.
if I am wrong, please tell me.

next problem........hahahhaha
I have every way I know, and I cannot get TBPro AB Level Matching plugin to be seen by Reaper.
I don't know how many of the unzipped files I need to move.
I have tried several ways.
Reaper never sees any of it.
I have emailed support.
in the meantime, does anyone know where to put what files?
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Old 12-15-2014, 09:32 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planetnine View Post
It depends on your workflow. For a single source needing reverb, and that reverb sounding good, then as an insert will do fine.

I place my reverbs on another track because with hardware, that was the way to work -this allows running several channels through it, EQ-ing of the reverb, and allows gain-stagung tricks like running the send hot and then reducing the gain of the return -as many of the affordable FX boxes weren't that quiet.

In your DAW, using the buss approach allows for EQ-ing the send, the reverb itself, and of course the application of dynamics.

In large mixes, this also allows for clearer control too. Now all we need is VCAs so we can group and automate without seatrying that balance


>
+1

I would use an insert only if I'm sure that I have only a single track that will need that fx.
Actually, my projects open with 5 or 6 basic reverbs (some are the presets that I tweaked and some I made from scratch), a mono and a stereo (thru) delay (I start with those two and add more if needed - I rarely use predelay on reverb plugs because I found this way to be much more flexible and ReaDelay is really transparent and perfect for the job) and a couple of regular delays (pretty basic but ready to be tweaked). So, I immediately have something to work with and later I decide if I want to keep those and tweak them or use some others. I have also EQs, comps and gates already set up where I think I might need them ... So, this is just the way I do it and not some kind of a rule or something (there are probably people who will think this is absolutely wrong, but it works for me ).

Cheers,
Alex
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Old 12-15-2014, 09:59 AM   #6
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I like sends because it gives you WAY more control over how you can process the verb.

EQ pre and/or post reverb, Modulation FX, Saturation, delays, pitch shifting, etc. You really cant do this with the reverb in line with the direct singal. You need a parallel processing chain aka a send.
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Old 12-15-2014, 10:14 AM   #7
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thanks guys. awesome.
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Old 12-15-2014, 11:55 AM   #8
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as mentioned before, workflow can have a big impact on your choice, here. what's been described so far has been oriented to music production. i'll just mention that the approach i take is quite different as i do a lot of film work and anyone doing film should probably know some of this experience.

i put reverb on the items directly. it's been said that having a single reverb applied to a track or buss can add unity to a mix. it's also been said that only a few reverbs are used in most cases. for film, this is not always the case. a film could have a great many locations, requiring reverb to match. dialog and fx might have been recorded very cleanly and might need to be integrated into these different locations. this alone could account for quite a few different reverbs. in addition, there could be creative use as in things like characters' interior thoughts. different characters might want different reverbs. different moods might want different reverbs. romance might be very different from a nightmare sequence. then, there's the issue of matching dialog replacement. that can, as well, use a very subtle reverb to blend and sound more natural.

eq'ing the reverb has been mentioned as a benefit for the single or few reverbs at the track or buss level. since i work with items, i looked for a reverb with eq built in. i settled on epicverb but found it to have problems in my large, 64bit workflow. i wound up moving the current project to voxengo's old skool verb which comes 64bit. it doesn't sound as good to me but i've not had the crashing or sluggishness i had with epicverb. reaverb has no built-in eq.

just thought i should mention these things for anyone working in other workflows like, say, radio production/drama and film/video.

thanks,
BabaG
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Old 12-15-2014, 01:11 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chas51 View Post
awesome you guys.
thank you very much for your excellent super helpful replies.
so then, simply stated:
the sound should be the same.
that is to say, in a very simple setup, like mine, there should be no difference sound-wise, between whether I use Reverb as a send or an insert.
if I am wrong, please tell me.
There is no "right" or "wrong" way to do this. If it sounds good, it is good. But typically, you'll only need around three reverbs in a mix (and I'm talking about music, not film soundtracks, because musicians don't normally change locations in the middle of a performance, though modern productions aren't all that realistic, either ). So what you'll typically see would be something like:
  • A short, small room reverb. This type of verb doesn't really extend a tail after the instrument so much as it adds a little "air" to a track and thickens it up a bit. This isn't needed in cases where you track the instruments such that you capture a bit of the room they're in, but it helps a lot with soft synths, DI bass tracks, dry samples, electric guitars recorded direct and sent through an amp sim, etc.
  • A larger room or hall reverb, often timed to be in sync with the song's tempo. This is the main reverb, the one that normally adds the tail after the instrument and what we think of as the reverb on the song.
  • A special reverb, maybe a plate or large hall, that often goes through some type of modulation effect (flanging, phasing, etc.). This is often used to set the lead vocal apart from the rest of the mix in slick, modern rock/pop/modern country/R&B/electronic/etc. type prodcutions, but would probably be overkill in a stripped down vocal/acoustic guitar type of mix. When used, the mixer will sometimes put other lead instruments through this verb, too like a guitar/sax/keyboard solo.

From there, a lot of guys will have several delays set up too, and often they will create another send from the delay into the main reverb so as to avoid setting up more reverbs and cluttering the mix too much.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chas51 View Post
next problem........hahahhaha
I have every way I know, and I cannot get TBPro AB Level Matching plugin to be seen by Reaper.
I don't know how many of the unzipped files I need to move.
I have tried several ways.
Reaper never sees any of it.
I have emailed support.
in the meantime, does anyone know where to put what files?
I'm not familiar with this one. Are you talking about this?
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Old 12-15-2014, 02:45 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babag View Post
as mentioned before, workflow can have a big impact on your choice, here. what's been described so far has been oriented to music production. i'll just mention that the approach i take is quite different as i do a lot of film work and anyone doing film should probably know some of this experience.

i put reverb on the items directly. it's been said that having a single reverb applied to a track or buss can add unity to a mix. it's also been said that only a few reverbs are used in most cases. for film, this is not always the case. a film could have a great many locations, requiring reverb to match. dialog and fx might have been recorded very cleanly and might need to be integrated into these different locations. this alone could account for quite a few different reverbs. in addition, there could be creative use as in things like characters' interior thoughts. different characters might want different reverbs. different moods might want different reverbs. romance might be very different from a nightmare sequence. then, there's the issue of matching dialog replacement. that can, as well, use a very subtle reverb to blend and sound more natural.

eq'ing the reverb has been mentioned as a benefit for the single or few reverbs at the track or buss level. since i work with items, i looked for a reverb with eq built in. i settled on epicverb but found it to have problems in my large, 64bit workflow. i wound up moving the current project to voxengo's old skool verb which comes 64bit. it doesn't sound as good to me but i've not had the crashing or sluggishness i had with epicverb. reaverb has no built-in eq.

just thought i should mention these things for anyone working in other workflows like, say, radio production/drama and film/video.

thanks,
BabaG
thank you for your super excellent reply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drtedtan View Post
There is no "right" or "wrong" way to do this. If it sounds good, it is good. But typically, you'll only need around three reverbs in a mix (and I'm talking about music, not film soundtracks, because musicians don't normally change locations in the middle of a performance, though modern productions aren't all that realistic, either ). So what you'll typically see would be something like:
  • A short, small room reverb. This type of verb doesn't really extend a tail after the instrument so much as it adds a little "air" to a track and thickens it up a bit. This isn't needed in cases where you track the instruments such that you capture a bit of the room they're in, but it helps a lot with soft synths, DI bass tracks, dry samples, electric guitars recorded direct and sent through an amp sim, etc.
  • A larger room or hall reverb, often timed to be in sync with the song's tempo. This is the main reverb, the one that normally adds the tail after the instrument and what we think of as the reverb on the song.
  • A special reverb, maybe a plate or large hall, that often goes through some type of modulation effect (flanging, phasing, etc.). This is often used to set the lead vocal apart from the rest of the mix in slick, modern rock/pop/modern country/R&B/electronic/etc. type prodcutions, but would probably be overkill in a stripped down vocal/acoustic guitar type of mix. When used, the mixer will sometimes put other lead instruments through this verb, too like a guitar/sax/keyboard solo.

From there, a lot of guys will have several delays set up too, and often they will create another send from the delay into the main reverb so as to avoid setting up more reverbs and cluttering the mix too much.

thank you so much for that.
you are super generous and kind.

I'm not familiar with this one. Are you talking about this?

got it fixed. support helped me jump through hoops. one thing I had to do was locate AppData folder. that required going in to a tab and clicking show hidden folders. its a circus for me sometimes.
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Old 12-16-2014, 06:50 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by planetnine View Post

In your DAW, using the buss approach allows for EQ-ing the send, the reverb itself, and of course the application of dynamics.
How do you EQ the send in Reaper? Aside from setting up a separate send to another track that sends to the reverb, I haven't been able to figure out how to do this.

Thanks
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Old 12-16-2014, 09:36 AM   #12
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How do you EQ the send in Reaper? Aside from setting up a separate send to another track that sends to the reverb, I haven't been able to figure out how to do this.

Thanks
Unless I'm mistaken (and i hope I am) there is no way to "EQ the send". Yoyu can only put EQ on the track that hosts the aux FX. This of course will effect everything that is sent to the aux channel.

if there is a way to put FX on the send itself I'd love to know about it.
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Old 12-16-2014, 10:28 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magicbuss View Post
Unless I'm mistaken (and i hope I am) there is no way to "EQ the send". Yoyu can only put EQ on the track that hosts the aux FX. This of course will effect everything that is sent to the aux channel.

if there is a way to put FX on the send itself I'd love to know about it.
Send to a track with the desired fx on it [edit: and the master send disabled], then send from that track to the reverb?

Or am I misunderstanding you?
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Old 12-16-2014, 12:39 PM   #14
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Send to a track with the desired fx on it [edit: and the master send disabled], then send from that track to the reverb?

Or am I misunderstanding you?
OK, yeah thats a bit kludgv but it will work. I believe some daws allow you to insert FX directly on the send. That would be easier.
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Old 12-16-2014, 02:06 PM   #15
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Using a multi-channel reverb bus you can send each track to different channels, i.e.

1/2 Vocal
3/4 Backing vocal
5/6 Sax
7/8 Trombone
9/10 Trumpet

And then you can put EQs on each channel via the plugin pins.

Finally, the reverb goes after all the EQs and your pin window for the reverb looks like this:

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Old 12-16-2014, 03:19 PM   #16
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OK, yeah thats a bit kludgv but it will work. I believe some daws allow you to insert FX directly on the send. That would be easier.
Kludgy? KLUDGY??

*stomps off muttering*

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Old 12-17-2014, 11:57 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Fergler View Post
Using a multi-channel reverb bus you can send each track to different channels, i.e.

1/2 Vocal
3/4 Backing vocal
5/6 Sax
7/8 Trombone
9/10 Trumpet

And then you can put EQs on each channel via the plugin pins.

Finally, the reverb goes after all the EQs and your pin window for the reverb looks like this:

Very slick. I'll have to give this one a try. With high track and FX counts, using a number of different sends is very taxing on the system. Hopefully this will be a more elegant solution...

Thanks Ferg
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Old 12-17-2014, 03:33 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergler View Post
And then you can put EQs on each channel via the plugin pins.
OK, it's THAT kind of day. MONSTER headache going on. I'm just not able to get a visual of what you mean. Can you give a few more details on how to put EQ's on each channel via the plugin pins?
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Old 12-17-2014, 04:25 PM   #19
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Using Fergler's setup:

On your reverb bus, click the I/O button, go to Track Channels, and change it to 10. Go to the FX window on the reverb bus, and add 5 EQs followed by 1 reverb. Now go to the 1st EQ, and click the routing button (it should say "2in 2out" or something similar). You should see a similar plugin pin window as was posted by Fergler, but with only the 1 and 2 pins selected. Leave this one alone. Go to the next EQ and click on the routing button. Unselect 1 and 2 and select 3 and 4 (the same way that 1 and 2 were selected on the previous EQ). Do the same thing for the next EQ, but make it 5 and 6, then 7 and 8 for the next EQ, and finally 9 and 10 for the last one.

Go to the reverb routing button, and make it look like the one in Fergler's post. You now have 5 EQs that are all on different channels which can have sends from any number of other tracks, but which all output to the reverb.

Go to the vocal track (1/2). Click on the I/O button and add a new send to the reverb bus.

Go to the backing vocal track (3/4). Click on the I/O button and add a new send to the reverb bus. Under the send volume fader set the routing so that it says "Audio 1/2 => 3/4". The send is now going to the 2nd EQ in the reverb bus.

Do the same thing for the remaining tracks, routing them to 5/6, 7/8, 9/10 respectively. Each of the 5 tracks is now sending only to 1 of the EQs in the reverb bus, so each track can have its own pre-reverb EQ.

This is a great trick, and you could use it for more than just EQs. You could set different predelays for different tracks for example, or compress the send first, or whatever.

Hope that clears up how to implement this little trick.
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Old 12-17-2014, 04:55 PM   #20
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Very good, moribund! Thanks for that explanation. Now it makes sense to my flu-ridden mind. Much appreciated!
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Old 12-17-2014, 06:56 PM   #21
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hey Jeff, thank you for asking that question.
hope you're feeling better. I am, finally. felt flu-ey for a week.

moribund and Fergler, man.......super cool posts. thank you guys for the super awesome info.
moribund, thats freakin amazing.
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Old 12-17-2014, 10:49 PM   #22
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It's a very under appreciated part of Reaper that's for sure. But it could be better: http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=1326 Vote!
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Old 12-18-2014, 04:29 AM   #23
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right on!
I just voted yes.
thank you again.
I remember being fascinated by this feature in the past.
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Old 01-23-2015, 03:30 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moribund View Post
Using Fergler's setup:

On your reverb bus, click the I/O button, go to Track Channels, and change it to 10. Go to the FX window on the reverb bus, and add 5 EQs followed by 1 reverb. Now go to the 1st EQ, and click the routing button (it should say "2in 2out" or something similar). You should see a similar plugin pin window as was posted by Fergler, but with only the 1 and 2 pins selected. Leave this one alone. Go to the next EQ and click on the routing button. Unselect 1 and 2 and select 3 and 4 (the same way that 1 and 2 were selected on the previous EQ). Do the same thing for the next EQ, but make it 5 and 6, then 7 and 8 for the next EQ, and finally 9 and 10 for the last one.

Go to the reverb routing button, and make it look like the one in Fergler's post. You now have 5 EQs that are all on different channels which can have sends from any number of other tracks, but which all output to the reverb.

Go to the vocal track (1/2). Click on the I/O button and add a new send to the reverb bus.

Go to the backing vocal track (3/4). Click on the I/O button and add a new send to the reverb bus. Under the send volume fader set the routing so that it says "Audio 1/2 => 3/4". The send is now going to the 2nd EQ in the reverb bus.

Do the same thing for the remaining tracks, routing them to 5/6, 7/8, 9/10 respectively. Each of the 5 tracks is now sending only to 1 of the EQs in the reverb bus, so each track can have its own pre-reverb EQ.

This is a great trick, and you could use it for more than just EQs. You could set different predelays for different tracks for example, or compress the send first, or whatever.

Hope that clears up how to implement this little trick.
Finally got around to trying this but not having any luck. The first EQ in line gives no output at all. The 2nd EQ works until I enable the 3rd EQ. At that point the 2nd quits working. And so on down the line. I followed the above instructions to the letter but end up like this.

What I was attempting to do is disable all EQ's but one so I could work on just that instrument. The track I am sending to EQ 1 (input on 1/2) is never heard. The 2nd EQ (input on 3/4) works until I enable the 3rd EQ (input on 5/6).

Suggestions?
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Old 01-23-2015, 03:55 PM   #25
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wow man.
yeah, this looks really cool.
I'll have to try it first chance I get.
hoping we get some replies here Jeff.
I don't know why its not working for you yet.

this looks like a crucial step:

"Go to the vocal track (1/2). Click on the I/O button and add a new send to the reverb bus.

Go to the backing vocal track (3/4). Click on the I/O button and add a new send to the reverb bus. Under the send volume fader set the routing so that it says "Audio 1/2 => 3/4". The send is now going to the 2nd EQ in the reverb bus."
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Old 01-23-2015, 03:57 PM   #26
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A similar approach (which I use) would be:

Track
> set an insert EQ's output to 3/4 > rename it "send EQ"
> now switch the actual send panel to 3/4 --> 1/2
> to the reverb "track"

Since the EQ sends to 3/4 only, the original audio is not affected.

In the same fashion you can handle all pre-reverb-only FX on their source tracks. As a result the receive track is way easier to overlook.

(this is not limited to EQ of course. Predelay comes to mind as well)
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Old 01-23-2015, 06:46 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Jeffsounds View Post
OK, it's THAT kind of day. MONSTER headache going on. I'm just not able to get a visual of what you mean. Can you give a few more details on how to put EQ's on each channel via the plugin pins?


...careful, they'll sue you for trademark infringement!



>
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Old 01-23-2015, 11:55 PM   #28
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...careful, they'll sue you for trademark infringement! >
haha! Let 'em come!

Man, that was one horrible day that turned into almost a month of fighting that flu!
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