Old 12-24-2010, 02:24 PM   #1
reapersequencer
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Default Is there a not so complicated way to LOOP?

Seriously, want to £oop my drum tracks so that they time perfectly; let's say I compose a drum be@t within a bar, I want to loop it and have the timng perfect.
I normally play out my drum parts for the entire intended duration of the song I am composing.
This takes time and sometimes the timing is off.
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Old 12-24-2010, 02:49 PM   #2
Jason Brian Merrill
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play the beat to a metronome
trim the edges of the item, perfectly to the beat
glue
drag out.
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Old 12-24-2010, 02:51 PM   #3
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-- Record your beat
-- Split the recorded clip on the hits into approx beats (or approx bars)
-- find the best clip, crop it if necessary
-- stretch it to fit the beats or bars
-- Render it to create a new clip
-- right-click >> item settings, set "Loop (section of) item source"
-- drag the right-hand edge of the clip to loop it throughout your song

[that's the same as what JBM said]
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Old 12-24-2010, 03:24 PM   #4
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... and make sure Project Timebase is set to Beats, position, length, rate ...
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Old 12-24-2010, 04:16 PM   #5
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hm, i dunno..


i wouldnt call this _perfect_, timing wise:



(note: its only 30 seconds and it already drifts a lot. its not even a 3:30 mins song.. its 128bpm.)

and stretching a beat that needs only a few ms (or less) correction? im not sure that either.. i'd copy-paste the beat at every Bar, or wherever needed.


my 2 bits.
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Old 12-24-2010, 04:52 PM   #6
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I have had odd trouble with this same thing at times. I cannot reproduce it 100 percent though (yet)

I will work with it tonight though
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Old 12-24-2010, 05:20 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisharbin View Post
I have had odd trouble with this same thing at times. I cannot reproduce it 100 percent though (yet)

I will work with it tonight though
this depends on tempo, samplerate, if you have snap to samplerate (in v4), and maybe some rounding..

its complicated and never gonna be _perfect_ imo.
this kind of LOOP, that is.
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Old 12-24-2010, 05:23 PM   #8
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Seems there are lots of ways

I usually go for:

Record with metronome or backing track >
Select a bar or two of your best bits (making sure snap is on)>
Trim the selected area you want >
Glue the selected item

You will be able to drag the item out and you will get perfect replicas in perfect time, as long as you like

You cold even "slip edit" the part you played if it were not perfect to begin with > Then Glue

That's the same as JBM isn't it? oh well, don't mind me


I don't think I have ever stretched anything to fit
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Old 12-24-2010, 06:05 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedwood View Post

You will be able to drag the item out and you will get perfect replicas in perfect time, as long as you like
erm.. i linked an example of those "perfect replicas" in post #5..
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Old 12-24-2010, 06:21 PM   #10
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I've been playing around with this (check my specs in sig) and have been able to loop to perfection without incident.

I wonder if any of this comes into play.

-the original clip is not a perfect loop
-^^ Snap is off making the clip just a bit shy or off.
-the original was "dragged" to the perfect size instead of sliced off to perfect size. If I'm not careful this happen to me all the time and of course that leads to a "wtf"?? moment.....which I usually figure out is my own fault.

Any possibility I'm even remotely on the right track??
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Old 12-24-2010, 06:37 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisharbin View Post
I've been playing around with this (check my specs in sig) and have been able to loop to perfection without incident.

I wonder if any of this comes into play.

-the original clip is not a perfect loop
-^^ Snap is off making the clip just a bit shy or off.
-the original was "dragged" to the perfect size instead of sliced off to perfect size. If I'm not careful this happen to me all the time and of course that leads to a "wtf"?? moment.....which I usually figure out is my own fault.

Any possibility I'm even remotely on the right track??
its not a pilot error. its a fact that this happens, and will happen in some cases. especially in v4, especially if you use snap to samplerate.

if you SEE 'perfect' loop in Reaper it doesnt necessarily mean it IS perfect. Grids arent perfect, they are all subsample accurate, etc.


note: Reaper even moves item content when pressing UNDO - its not a "perfect" timing DAW yet.
more about this here:
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...201#post633201
and here:
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=70335
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Old 12-24-2010, 06:41 PM   #12
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Well, I know I've run into this problem before.

What is this reaper 4 you speak of?? :heheheheehe:
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Old 12-24-2010, 06:46 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beatbybit View Post
its not a pilot error. its a fact that this happens, and will happen in some cases. especially in v4, especially if you use snap to samplerate.

if you SEE 'perfect' loop in Reaper it doesnt necessarily mean it IS perfect. Grids arent perfect, they are all subsample accurate, etc.


note: Reaper even moves item content when pressing UNDO - its not a "perfect" timing DAW yet.
more about this here:
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...201#post633201
and here:
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=70335
Well I don't know about audio since I don't really do audio loops for any length of time, but I just checked with a one bar midi loops the full length of a song and it was perfect.

That's how I do my drums - midi first then render them as audio (sometimes but not always), so they would come out the same, they don't always line up perfectly because of minor midi latency or something, but if you slip them in line they are in line consistently all they way through
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Last edited by Tedwood; 12-24-2010 at 06:53 PM.
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Old 12-24-2010, 07:01 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedwood View Post
Well I don't know about audio since I don't really do audio loops for any length of time, but I just checked with a one bar midi loops the full length of a song and it was perfect.

That's how I do my drums - midi first then render them as audio (sometimes but not always), so they would come out the same, they don't always line up perfectly because of minor midi latency or something, but if you slip them in line they are in line consistently all they way through
well, the OP didnt mention if he does it in MIDI or Audio - and youre right, MIDI may be more accurate on looping. (i dont use em)

as we see, Audio is a diff. story
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Old 12-24-2010, 07:46 PM   #15
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One thing to be careful of when looping audio items is to make sure there is a zero crossing at the loop points (which would be at the beginning and then end of the primary loop. The problem with just trimming and gluing is that gluing does not render the fades at the start and the end of the loop. Then when you drag the loop out, you also drag the end fade. So without a zero crossing you get a small pop at loop transition. One thing you can do to create a zero crossing is to render the item with fades intact. I usually do this by the "Apply track FX to items as new take" action.

Would be nice though to have some option to render the item fades with just gluing.

Regards,

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Old 12-25-2010, 04:01 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beatbybit View Post
hm, i dunno..


i wouldnt call this _perfect_, timing wise:



(note: its only 30 seconds and it already drifts a lot. its not even a 3:30 mins song.. its 128bpm.)

and stretching a beat that needs only a few ms (or less) correction? im not sure that either.. i'd copy-paste the beat at every Bar, or wherever needed.


my 2 bits.
i come across this quite a bit - usually with audio rather than midi iirc.
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Old 12-25-2010, 06:12 AM   #17
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This is all over the place and dependant on tempo and grid settings.

Safest way is to copy loops at the start of a bar and forget looping.
Loop section of item source sometimes works. ? I think , anyway I dont loop if i can avoid it.
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Old 12-25-2010, 06:43 AM   #18
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OK, I feel like I'm missing something here. Maybe its because I used V4 Alpha? Took a click, played to it for a few bars. Split out a couple of bars I wanted to keep; glued them then dragged them out and looped for 1000 measures or so (33 minutes) and it appears to be exactly right all the way down the length of the test? What am I missing?



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Old 12-25-2010, 06:46 AM   #19
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Maybe you should try the same thing at 130 Bpm ?
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Old 12-25-2010, 06:48 AM   #20
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ah, even divisions... checking
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Old 12-25-2010, 07:02 AM   #21
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OK... Looks like its about ~1 sample off per second in that test. Thanks for the clarification.

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Old 12-25-2010, 07:10 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
OK, I feel like I'm missing something here. Maybe its because I used V4 Alpha? Took a click, played to it for a few bars. Split out a couple of bars I wanted to keep; glued them then dragged them out and looped for 1000 measures or so (33 minutes) and it appears to be exactly right all the way down the length of the test? What am I missing?


Karbo
try with Snap to Samplerate ON, try to make a Loop that PERFECTLY fits your BPM (which isnt sample accurate yet) - for eg. 128 bpm
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Old 12-25-2010, 09:07 AM   #23
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just make sure you are trimming it to the beat - and that its edges are at the right place, the tooltip will let you know. havent had a problem with this.

anyway, this guys question was about how to loop...
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Old 12-25-2010, 09:58 AM   #24
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find the first beat and cut it at that spot. then find some number of bars later where you like your beat, and slice again. i have a macro where alt + space loops and plays loop, so you can do this to audition your loop to make sure it sounds good. then, you use the tempo feature, for me T does this. you press T or whatever button you choose to use, and then the tempo thingy comes up and asks you how many bars your loop is, and then based on that, changes your project to the tempo that fits your loop perfectly. glue that loop at any point in the process once you've decided it's correct, and then you can click and drag that and it will always snap and will always stay in time as long as it was in time to begin with.

you might find you will need to use a click track again if some parts were not exactly right. me, i usually do this to decide what tempo to make a track. i'll play a few loops at the tempo i like, and then do this to create the project at proper tempo, and then record with a click track to make it properly tight.

often in reaper, you can think of how you'd like something to work, and you can make it work that way.

i think this is the quickest and easiest way to do it.

but i didn't get where you were taking your loops from and stuff, and at what point you wanted to loop it. for me with looped based music the drums is usually the first thing i do.

what i don't know how you can do in reaper, is choos a loop and have it tempo match by stretching without changing pitch, which might be what you want.

ideally you could have your loop, and then click and drag it until it snaps to where you want it, and that's it, just glue and you're done. there might be a way to get it working this way.
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Old 12-25-2010, 10:03 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DBMusic View Post
One thing to be careful of when looping audio items is to make sure there is a zero crossing at the loop points (which would be at the beginning and then end of the primary loop. The problem with just trimming and gluing is that gluing does not render the fades at the start and the end of the loop. Then when you drag the loop out, you also drag the end fade. So without a zero crossing you get a small pop at loop transition. One thing you can do to create a zero crossing is to render the item with fades intact. I usually do this by the "Apply track FX to items as new take" action.

Would be nice though to have some option to render the item fades with just gluing.

Regards,

DB
or what else would be nice is the action to slice at nearest zero crossing. there is one for nearest previous and nearest following, but none for closest period whether it be forward or backward.

but for me, i find crossfades actually do a good job of making this unnecessary for the most part. worst comes to worst just add a crossfade, but that said, i'd still rather have my slice tool always slice at nearest zero crossing, this can only be an improvement really. i can't think of a time where i wouldn't want that.
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Old 12-25-2010, 11:13 AM   #26
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so what about this: [and sorry but I'm talking about the V4 functions here]

get your loop in whatever... reaper or other app... of course it does have to be cut at zero crossings... [when I need to be perfect with this I do it in Audition, which is my external wav editor for reaper]

Now save that wav to a folder on your hd, however you do that...
Then open it in the Media Explorer with Tempo Match set to ON and import it into the project that you really want [see, tempo for that project can be diff than where you first made the loop].. you should get a loop matched to the project tempo and it should be able to be dragged out to however long you want it.
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Old 12-25-2010, 12:56 PM   #27
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split at zero crossing is not necessary at all, and sorta hard to find on some stereo material. i use 1ms def. fade i/o at every splits - i dont have to worry about clicks.

if we're talking about Audio looping (which im not sure, maybe the OP is about simple MIDI), the "Paste Repeat" action does the job well
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Old 12-25-2010, 08:43 PM   #28
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Sonar has a 'bounce to clip' that does basically what Glue does...only it renders the fades. Very useful for audio looping.

Regards,

DB
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