Old 03-16-2019, 08:01 AM   #1
Edgemeal
Human being with feelings
 
Edgemeal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: ASU`ogacihC
Posts: 1,062
Default v5.973+dev0316 - March 16 2019

v5.973+dev0316 - March 16 2019
+ Tempo envelope: do not create unnecessary tempo markers when pasting tempo envelope points [t=215995]
+ VCAs: allow chaining of VCA groups [t=218066]

Full changelog / Latest pre-releases
Edgemeal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2019, 12:04 PM   #2
Robert Randolph
Human being with feelings
 
Robert Randolph's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Posts: 785
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgemeal View Post
v5.973+dev0316 - March 16 2019
+ VCAs: allow chaining of VCA groups [t=218066]
Thank you!
__________________
http://www.admiralbumblebee.com
Audio/DAW stuff, Woodworking, Programming and more...
Robert Randolph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2019, 01:05 PM   #3
BirdBird
Human being with feelings
 
BirdBird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 6
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgemeal View Post
v5.973+dev0316 - March 16 2019
+ VCAs: allow chaining of VCA groups [t=218066]
This was an amazing thing to witness. Thanks!
BirdBird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2019, 01:12 PM   #4
Justin
Administrator
 
Justin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 11,863
Default

Hmm in hindsight the way it handles chained VCAs when there are pre-FX VCAs involved isn't ideal -- fixing this for the next build (the pre-FX VCA bit will only be used at the last moment, ignored for chaining purposes).
Justin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2019, 05:15 AM   #5
ovnis
Human being with feelings
 
ovnis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,254
Default

The issue with AI transition at 0 ms remains. There is a random glitch sound before the start of the AI. We can see some audio after the AI and before the end of the AI. The AI automates only the track volume. Not the synth plug.

video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSw0...ature=youtu.be



The project : https://stash.reaper.fm/v/35838/bug2.rpp





.

Last edited by ovnis; 03-17-2019 at 01:01 PM.
ovnis is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2019, 06:12 AM   #6
schwa
Administrator
 
schwa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 9,844
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ovnis View Post
The issue with AI transition at 0 ms remains.
That project has a short automation item transition time defined. If I set the transition time to zero, I don't hear the transition sound any more.
schwa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2019, 07:02 AM   #7
ovnis
Human being with feelings
 
ovnis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,254
Default

Quote:
That project has a short automation item transition time defined. If I set the transition time to zero, I don't hear the transition sound any more.
Are you sure ? I have checked the transition AI and it is set to 0 ms.

The issue happens randomly only with some VST (U-he synths or Novation V-Station, for exemple).

Edit : same issue with reaper5973+dev0316.


Last edited by ovnis; 03-17-2019 at 08:43 AM.
ovnis is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2019, 08:28 AM   #8
schwa
Administrator
 
schwa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 9,844
Default

Sorry, my mistake, the transition time is set to zero. However, I don't have your plugins, and I can't reproduce the issue with the plugins I have. Any particular u-he synth I should try?
schwa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2019, 08:41 AM   #9
ovnis
Human being with feelings
 
ovnis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,254
Default

Hello,

You can download Tyell-n6. It's a free u-he synth.

The download page :

https://www.amazona.de/freeware-synth-tyrell-n6-v3-03/

Last edited by ovnis; 03-17-2019 at 08:49 AM.
ovnis is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2019, 08:51 AM   #10
schwa
Administrator
 
schwa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 9,844
Default

What audio sample rate and buffer size are you using?
schwa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2019, 08:53 AM   #11
ovnis
Human being with feelings
 
ovnis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,254
Default

44100 128
ovnis is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2019, 10:30 AM   #12
schwa
Administrator
 
schwa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 9,844
Default

OK, well that was a whack-a-mole situation. There is a one-sample bug in the current automation item transition code, but the bigger issue is that u-he Tyrell synth by design returns audio a few samples prior to receiving MIDI notes! So any automation that affects the output starting at the exact time position of the first MIDI note will miss the first few samples of audio.
schwa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2019, 01:30 PM   #13
Valle
Human being with feelings
 
Valle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 559
Default

After latest Waves update REAPER (v5.973+dev0316) crashes (see pic) when trying to load VST3 CLA MixHub. Other plugins, even Waves, seem OK, though. It's just CLA MixHub.

Most likely a Waves issue. Although, it may be worth mentioning that this does not happen in the official REAPER release (v5.973).

__________________
.
Valenzia Vision
Valle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2019, 02:38 PM   #14
fladd
Human being with feelings
 
fladd's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 929
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
OK, well that was a whack-a-mole situation. There is a one-sample bug in the current automation item transition code, but the bigger issue is that u-he Tyrell synth by design returns audio a few samples prior to receiving MIDI notes! So any automation that affects the output starting at the exact time position of the first MIDI note will miss the first few samples of audio.
How can a plugin return audio before it gets the midi note that tells it what audio to return?
__________________
www.fladd.de/sound
fladd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2019, 02:44 PM   #15
schwa
Administrator
 
schwa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 9,844
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fladd View Post
How can a plugin return audio before it gets the midi note that tells it what audio to return?
Through the magic of PDC.
schwa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2019, 02:45 PM   #16
nofish
Human being with feelings
 
nofish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: home is where the heart is
Posts: 8,460
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fladd View Post
How can a plugin return audio before it gets the midi note that tells it what audio to return?
It reports a few samples delay to the host.

edit:
schwa beat me.
nofish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2019, 04:21 PM   #17
ovnis
Human being with feelings
 
ovnis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,254
Default

I have disabled the Tyrell PDC (in the I/O in the plug-in pin connector) and the issue remains.
ovnis is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2019, 06:11 PM   #18
schwa
Administrator
 
schwa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 9,844
Default

The plugin behavior actually does not seem to depend on PDC. For example, if the synth is given a 128-sample buffer with a MIDI note-on occurring at sample 62, the plugin returns a block of audio that has non-silence beginning at sample 49. This behavior depends on where the buffer block falls relative to the MIDI events, therefore it differs depending on exactly what timeline position playback is started, and the buffer size.

Code:
eventlist.Get())->events[0]
0x000001484a27a378
    type: 1
    byteSize: 24
    deltaFrames: 62   // note-on at frame 62
    flags: 0
    data: 0x000001484a27a388 ""
outbufs[0].channelBuffers32[0][48]
0.000000000           // silence through frame 48
outbufs[0].channelBuffers32[0][49]
-1.31550546e-13       // nonzero audio output starting at frame 49

In any case, there is a 1-sample bug in the automation item transition calculation, which we'll fix, but this plugin just happens to be not appropriate for testing the automation behavior because of its own quirks.

Last edited by schwa; 03-17-2019 at 06:35 PM.
schwa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2019, 06:33 PM   #19
ovnis
Human being with feelings
 
ovnis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,254
Default

Thx for the explanation. I have contacted u-he.

https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewt...45821#p7345821

Last edited by ovnis; 03-17-2019 at 06:57 PM.
ovnis is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2019, 06:39 PM   #20
schwa
Administrator
 
schwa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 9,844
Default

The plugin does report PDC, so the behavior is by design. The only reason for a synth to report PDC is so it can do exactly this, return audio prior to the MIDI data. This isn't a bug in the plugin, it's just unusual.
schwa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2019, 10:50 PM   #21
EvilDragon
Human being with feelings
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 22,551
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
OK, well that was a whack-a-mole situation. There is a one-sample bug in the current automation item transition code, but the bigger issue is that u-he Tyrell synth by design returns audio a few samples prior to receiving MIDI notes! So any automation that affects the output starting at the exact time position of the first MIDI note will miss the first few samples of audio.
u-he plugins internally process things in 16 samples buffers. Might be related, just FYI.
EvilDragon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2019, 04:52 AM   #22
ovnis
Human being with feelings
 
ovnis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,254
Default

Urs :

Quote:
Well, I'm not sure how other developers handle this, but typically digital synths run modulations at control rate. That is, they update them (envelopes, LFOs etc.) every 16 samples or so. Some even do chunks of 64 or more (I guess that's what Reaktor's "800Hz" setting is for instance). Anyhow, we do a control rate of 16 samples for all MIDI events.

Now, with that in mind, the control rate sets the granularity at which events occur, such as note ons and stuff.

With a control rate of 16 for events, the best timing is achieved by distributing those events to +/- 8 samples of where they occur. It is IMHO the best way to deal with the issue of control rate vs. sample rate. It's still an order of magnitude more accurate than MIDI ever was.

#-------

That said, I have sometimes thought about adding per-voice delays such that each voice could have it's output shifted into sync of the control rate with the MIDI notes. But this of course then only works for the Note Ons and not for the Note Offs, which would then possibly jitter even more. Not sure if that's of any benefit.

Our latest efforts go into reducing the control rate for events to 4 samples. This is also the control rate at which we process internal modulators other than MIDI. This is what we've done in Repro for instance, which should process with an accuracy of +/- 2 samples.

Quote:
That's not the reason for the PDC. The actual reason for the PDC is that we internally process everything in chunks that are a multiple of 16 samples. This lets us reduce CPU by a large factor.

PDC is not necessary if the DAW also uses buffers which are a multiple of 16 samples length, such as 64, 256 or 512. In that case, in our most recent synths PDC can be switched off (not in Tyrell N6 though).
ovnis is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2019, 05:12 AM   #23
schwa
Administrator
 
schwa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 9,844
Default

That's all fine, but the bottom line is, those plugins can return audio prior to the MIDI note-on, so they are not the best test case for automation items that are intended to affect the audio starting on the same sample as the MIDI note-on.
schwa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2019, 10:36 AM   #24
ovnis
Human being with feelings
 
ovnis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,254
Default

My question about the issue :

Quote:
And it will change or ... ?
Answer (u-he) :

Quote:
Never say never, but certainly not this decade.
ovnis is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2019, 10:42 AM   #25
emwhy
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 113
Default

Well, the decade only has 7 months left in it!
emwhy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2019, 10:44 AM   #26
schwa
Administrator
 
schwa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 9,844
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by emwhy View Post
Well, the decade only has 7 months left in it!
:thinkingface:
schwa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2019, 10:47 AM   #27
ovnis
Human being with feelings
 
ovnis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,254
Default

For me it probably means "Never, I don't give a shit about this issue". I hope I'm wrong...

Time adjustement delay will be probably my new friend...
ovnis is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2019, 10:50 AM   #28
poplomop
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 151
Default

Wait how is it 2019 already.
poplomop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2019, 10:55 AM   #29
EvilDragon
Human being with feelings
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 22,551
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ovnis View Post
For me it probably means "Never, I don't give a shit about this issue".
That's not really how Urs thinks But that it does seem like a low priority issue, it does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ovnis View Post
Time adjustement delay will be probably my new friend...
Yes that is probably a good idea.

Also do note that Tyrell plugin is only updated when amazona.de website requests it from what I understand (pretty much), since it was done on their request in the first place. So it's even less priority for u-he overall.
EvilDragon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2019, 11:10 AM   #30
ovnis
Human being with feelings
 
ovnis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,254
Default

Quote:
Also do note that Tyrell plugin is only updated when amazona.de website requests it from what I understand (pretty much), since it was done on their request in the first place. So it's even less priority for u-he overall.
There is the same issue with Diva or Zebra.
ovnis is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2019, 02:48 PM   #31
TonE
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Reaper HAS send control via midi !!!
Posts: 1,692
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BirdBird View Post
This was an amazing thing to witness. Thanks!
Will this end all VCA discussions or just start their next level, whatever that might be, one has to search in DP 10 probably? Or SSL?

What about Super8s, the stereo version of Super8? Master devs? How many minutes would it take? Thanks in advance.

PHP Code:
Super8   Super8s
Super16  Super16s 
TonE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2019, 04:48 PM   #32
ovnis
Human being with feelings
 
ovnis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,254
Default

URS message :
Quote:
When will it not be an issue? 4 samples? 2? 1? 0?

If it's 0, are you willing to sacrifice 20%-40% CPU so you can draw sample accurate automation of the audio lane? Then, I'll ask, why, if you need sample accurate automation, don't you do it where then samples actually are?
ovnis is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2019, 09:56 PM   #33
TonE
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Reaper HAS send control via midi !!!
Posts: 1,692
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonE View Post
Will this end all VCA discussions or just start their next level, whatever that might be, one has to search in DP 10 probably? Or SSL?

What about Super8s, the stereo version of Super8? Master devs? How many minutes would it take? Thanks in advance.

PHP Code:
Super8   Super8s
Super16  Super16s 
You could call it Super8 Mk II, like Elektron, if you want. I like Super8s more, s like stereo.
TonE is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:15 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.