Grace Design m108 vs RME Fireface UFXII vs Grace Design m801mk2

[EmilieM]

Hi everyone,

does anyone have experience with the Grace design m108 and the RME Fireface? How do they compare sound wise?
I am looking into getting one of the two, to get a very clear and authentic sound for voice, with four mic inputs.
Are the preamps of the Grace better than those of the RME?

Also, what about the Grace Design m801mk2? No audio interface in there, so how does it compare to the m108 and why is it so much more expensive?
Does an external mic pre like this one make a massive difference sound wise, compared to the sound of the RME interface for example?

[jnorman34]

One of my professional friends in Seattle uses the grace 108 and loves it. It is not quite as facile as an interface as the RME UFX. My preference is the RME, as it is an industry standard with rock solid drivers and near perfect customer support reputation. Both units have excellent preamps, and no I don’t think you can hear any significant difference between them.

[bjohn]

One drawback to the Grace m108 is that you have to use a dsub breakout cable to get analog outs for your monitors (although I think Grace sells an optional card that includes two analog outs for monitors). It has a great reputation, though, and I've long been tempted to get one myself. People who prefer colored preamps sometimes complain that it sounds cold and sterile, but those who strive for accuracy and clarity tend to praise it for those qualities.

[EmilieM]

Originally Posted by jnorman34

One of my professional friends in Seattle uses the grace 108 and loves it. It is not quite as facile as an interface as the RME UFX. My preference is the RME, as it is an industry standard with rock solid drivers and near perfect customer support reputation. Both units have excellent preamps, and no I don’t think you can hear any significant difference between them.

Awesome. So no difference in sound between the preamps, that helps! Thanks.

[EmilieM]

Originally Posted by bjohn

One drawback to the Grace m108 is that you have to use a dsub breakout cable to get analog outs for your monitors (although I think Grace sells an optional card that includes two analog outs for monitors). It has a great reputation, though, and I've long been tempted to get one myself. People who prefer colored preamps sometimes complain that it sounds cold and sterile, but those who strive for accuracy and clarity tend to praise it for those qualities.

I see, thanks for your input. And so the accuracy and the clarity would equal that of the RME... or would it be even better...?

[bjohn]

Originally Posted by EmilieM

I see, thanks for your input. And so the accuracy and the clarity would equal that of the RME... or would it be even better...?

As Jim said, at this level of excellence I don't think you'd be able to hear a difference between them but I haven't used them myself so I'm relying on what I've heard/read from others.

[EmilieM]

Originally Posted by bjohn

As Jim said, at this level of excellence I don't think you'd be able to hear a difference between them but I haven't used them myself so I'm relying on what I've heard/read from others.

I see, it makes sense.

[ggrey]

I have not used or heard either the Grace or the RME, but...Another point to consider is using either will limit you to one style/flavor of their mic pres. And of course there is nothing wrong with that choice.

I have used Neve, API, Focusrite, and currently have SSL, Great River and John Hardy mic pre amps and can state they all sound absolutely Fabulous! But with that being said every one of them provides different sonic character. And combining them using different microphones, will translate to an extremely wide pallet of voice and musical character. All of course is my 2 cents in my humble opinion.

Just something to consider before you drop quite a load of cash on either the Grace or the Fireface.

BTW I do currently use an older RME Multiface 8x8 interface and it too is fab!

[bjohn]

Another much less expensive but excellent alternative, if you are only recording spoken voice, would be the Sound Devices MixPre recorders, which can also be used as audio interfaces. The MixPre 6 has four XLR inputs with very nice preamps. The MixPre 10 has eight inputs and better options for external powering (it has a Hirose input), plus it has two mini-XLR outputs for monitors.

For spoken voice I doubt you'd hear much if any difference in sound quality between the Sound Devices units and the Grace or RME. If you were recording music it might be a different story.

Another advantage to the Sound Devices units is that they can be used as standalone recorders as well as audio interfaces, so you can record directly into the recorder without using a computer, making for a very portable solution if you need it.

I can't remember what you are using now for your voiceover work.

[EmilieM]

Originally Posted by bjohn

Another much less expensive but excellent alternative, if you are only recording spoken voice, would be the Sound Devices MixPre recorders, which can also be used as audio interfaces. The MixPre 6 has four XLR inputs with very nice preamps. The MixPre 10 has eight inputs and better options for external powering (it has a Hirose input), plus it has two mini-XLR outputs for monitors.

For spoken voice I doubt you'd hear much if any difference in sound quality between the Sound Devices units and the Grace or RME. If you were recording music it might be a different story.

Another advantage to the Sound Devices units is that they can be used as standalone recorders as well as audio interfaces, so you can record directly into the recorder without using a computer, making for a very portable solution if you need it.

I can't remember what you are using now for your voiceover work.

Oh wow, that looks really cool! I'll look into it. Great to be able to record outside with this.

I have been using a Townsend Labs Sphere 22 mic through an Apollo Solo.
It is a stereo mic, so I need two inputs to plug it in... I want to get more mics to play around with, hence me looking into more getting more mic inputs.
I also wanted to have access to a different sound via the interface -hence me looking into pres-, but now I have realised that sound wise, there is probably no noticeable differences between those interfaces -Apollo, RME and Grace-... so I think I am going to look into tube pres, to try and get a different sound, that would be more coloured and warm...

[bjohn]

Originally Posted by EmilieM

so I think I am going to look into tube pres, to try and get a different sound, that would be more coloured and warm...

That sounds good (literally!). Although they're really expensive, I'd suggest at least looking at the preamps from Thermionic Culture; I don't think you'd find much better when it comes to tube preamps. The Earlybird 4 has four inputs but at a steep price. The Rooster has two preamps and would be a more affordable option if you can get by with just two tube pres.

It's of course possible to emulate some of the tube preamp effect with software, but the real thing is on a different level.

At a much lower price point, a used Sound Devices 442 field mixer is an interesting option to consider: it has Lundahl transformers in its preamps which also provide a nice warm sound. Some people prefer tubes, others prefer transformers. I can't afford tubes so transformers are my choice. I have a 442 mixer here and enjoy using it; the nice thing is that each of the preamps has a dedicated output so you can use it just as a preamp and not a mixer.

[EmilieM]

Originally Posted by bjohn

That sounds good (literally!). Although they're really expensive, I'd suggest at least looking at the preamps from Thermionic Culture; I don't think you'd find much better when it comes to tube preamps. The Earlybird 4 has four inputs but at a steep price. The Rooster has two preamps and would be a more affordable option if you can get by with just two tube pres.

It's of course possible to emulate some of the tube preamp effect with software, but the real thing is on a different level.

At a much lower price point, a used Sound Devices 442 field mixer is an interesting option to consider: it has Lundahl transformers in its preamps which also provide a nice warm sound. Some people prefer tubes, others prefer transformers. I can't afford tubes so transformers are my choice. I have a 442 mixer here and enjoy using it; the nice thing is that each of the preamps has a dedicated output so you can use it just as a preamp and not a mixer.

Yes, that's my feeling! I'd love to progressively -very progressively- become as analog as possible.

I'm starting to make up my mind about getting an Apollo 4x -since there doesn't seem to be a really audible difference between the UAD, RME and Grace preamps-, to then be able to hook up different mics via a real preamp.

Looking into it, I found the Manley Force 4 channel preamp to be very attractive -I have the Vox Box plugin, which I use in unison and it seems to go with my voice very well- ... but I didn't know about the Thermionic Culture ones, nor about the 442 mixer. I have to look them up.
How do they all compare to each other sound wise and also from the point of view of quietness?

I was also looking at the Neve 88rlb in the 500 series -I have the plugin form as well and it sounds quite good on my voice-, and that would also create a different sound in my arsenal... but maybe not as different from the Apollo sound as the tube preamps would be...??

Anyway, just enquiring and fantasising at the moment... since it will probably take time before I can acquire any of these... mind you, miracles happen! -and working towards it-

[EmilieM]

Wow, yes it sounds like the Earlybird 4 plays in its own ball park... along with the Tube Tech MP2A... not realistic prices for my little studio yet unfortunately
But I am curious... any comparisons available between these products? Manley Force, Neve 88rlb, Earlybird 4, MP2A...?

And what does the Sound Devices 442 sound like?

[bjohn]

Originally Posted by EmilieM

Wow, yes it sounds like the Earlybird 4 plays in its own ball park... along with the Tube Tech MP2A... not realistic prices for my little studio yet unfortunately
But I am curious... any comparisons available between these products? Manley Force, Neve 88rlb, Earlybird 4, MP2A...?

And what does the Sound Devices 442 sound like?

I'm not sure you'll find a lot of comparisons that focus on spoken voice as opposed to music. Is there any way you could rent some of these preamps to try them? Some stores offer rentals and it's a relatively inexpensive way to experiment before you commit to a purchase.

The 442 has been used for a lot of spoken voice recording, but mostly on location (e.g., recording actors' dialogue) for cinema and broadcast.

I think what you'll find is that you need to experiment to find the optimal blend of microphone and preamp that suits your particular voice. Microphones (as you already know) probably make the biggest difference: I live with a traditional singer and when we were recording her last album we tested quite a few mics before settling on the one that seemed to suit her voice best (in her case a Gefell UMT 70s, but on another singer one of the other mics might have been better). I tried a few preamps as well before settling on the ones in the little Sonosax M2D2 (which only has two inputs); I didn't have the 442 at that time but I think it would have been a good contender.

[EmilieM]

Originally Posted by bjohn

I'm not sure you'll find a lot of comparisons that focus on spoken voice as opposed to music. Is there any way you could rent some of these preamps to try them? Some stores offer rentals and it's a relatively inexpensive way to experiment before you commit to a purchase.

The 442 has been used for a lot of spoken voice recording, but mostly on location (e.g., recording actors' dialogue) for cinema and broadcast.

I think what you'll find is that you need to experiment to find the optimal blend of microphone and preamp that suits your particular voice. Microphones (as you already know) probably make the biggest difference: I live with a traditional singer and when we were recording her last album we tested quite a few mics before settling on the one that seemed to suit her voice best (in her case a Gefell UMT 70s, but on another singer one of the other mics might have been better). I tried a few preamps as well before settling on the ones in the little Sonosax M2D2 (which only has two inputs); I didn't have the 442 at that time but I think it would have been a good contender.

That's a great idea! I didn't know you could rent equipment like this for trial. I'll enquire at the audio stores around, even though I have my doubts as to whether they do that here in India... but you never know!
Thanks for the input and suggestions bjohn, really helpful!

[skylar_battles]

Just released: https://www.rme-audio.de/fireface-ufx-3.html

[bjohn]

Originally Posted by EmilieM

I'll enquire at the audio stores around, even though I have my doubts as to whether they do that here in India... but you never know!

Ah, sorry, I thought you were in France!

[EmilieM]

Originally Posted by bjohn

Ah, sorry, I thought you were in France!

Haha, nope! But I will be in a three months so will try to test some of this gear when I'm there. Meanwhile, fantasising and working at making some cash for all this...!

[beingmf]

Originally Posted by EmilieM

Are the preamps of the Grace better than those of the RME?

I for one would never compare RME preamps to a unit like the Grace. Please define "better"!? To my ears RME preamps always sound a little vanilla, lifeless, anaemic ‒ a character that many people equal with "authentic" or "HiFi". Nothing you could NOT use for a professional recording though. The Grace OTOH is "clear", but also full sounding and has more "depth", no matter what signal/source you throw at it.
If the differences are subtle or not, is up to you (:

[EmilieM]

Originally Posted by beingmf

I for one would never compare RME preamps to a unit like the Grace. Please define "better"!? To my ears RME preamps always sound a little vanilla, lifeless, anaemic ‒ a character that many people equal with "authentic" or "HiFi". Nothing you could NOT use for a professional recording though. The Grace OTOH is "clear", but also full sounding and has more "depth", no matter what signal/source you throw at it.
If the differences are subtle or not, is up to you (:

I see. Yes, getting people's feedback in terms of how they perceive things -these preamps for that matter- is the point here.
Since I myself have never tested these preamps, unfortunately, I am enquiring about people's perceptions of how they think they compare: in terms of clarity -which indeed, does not mean deprived of vibrancy- and transparency to the source or what we would call natural-ness?-, since these qualities are what these preamps are known and praised for. And that again, doesn't mean without depth if depth at the source there is.

A loyal reproduction of a three dimensional sound, I should say. This was my enquiry, beingmf: which preamps deliver this the best.
Anyway, you did give me what I was asking for -even though the way I experience vanilla is anything but lifeless and anaemic-, so thank you.

[beingmf]

Originally Posted by EmilieM

Anyway, you did give me what I was asking for -even though the way I experience vanilla is anything but lifeless and anaemic-, so thank you.

Haha, indeed I looked it up in the Urban Dictionary before I posted if the term could be somewhat "difficult" They came up with "unexciting, normal, conventional, boring".

[EmilieM]

Originally Posted by beingmf

Haha, indeed I looked it up in the Urban Dictionary before I posted if the term could be somewhat "difficult" They came up with "unexciting, normal, conventional, boring".

Hahaha, that's funny! The urban dictionary has never tried my vanilla dessert -which blends marvellously well in my coconut/chocolate mix and adds an intense subtlety to it-. But of course, I use analog vanilla, the actual vanilla beans, vs some synthetic processed emulation...

Ok, well that says a lot about how you experience the RME preamps. I see. The Grace would then sound "better" to me, if more vibrant and deep -and therefore natural?-

[jnorman34]

There are some audio files here - https://georgievsound.com/gear-compa...oustic-guitar/
where you can listen to the differences between RME preamps vs grace lunatec v3 and prism Lyra. All three are what are considered “clean” preamps, designed to give you the closest possible rendition of what you put in. If you are looking to “color” your sound in some way, you should be considering preamps that are based around transformer or tube circuitry ( and get ready to throw down some serious money).

[beingmf]

Originally Posted by EmilieM

But of course, I use analog vanilla, the actual vanilla beans, vs some synthetic processed emulation...

Recently I also started to substitute vanilla with Tonka bean. Very nice if it fits

[EmilieM]

Originally Posted by jnorman34

There are some audio files here - https://georgievsound.com/gear-compa...oustic-guitar/
where you can listen to the differences between RME preamps vs grace lunatec v3 and prism Lyra. All three are what are considered “clean” preamps, designed to give you the closest possible rendition of what you put in. If you are looking to “color” your sound in some way, you should be considering preamps that are based around transformer or tube circuitry ( and get ready to throw down some serious money).

A million thanks, jnorman34, for sending out this comparison. Now I know that according to this shootout, I definitely prefer the Grace preamps. Fuller sound, more three dimensional and rich, musical than the RME. Looove the sound. The RME sounds much grittier, but a kind of dry grit, more like desertic and parched...
Based on this, I agree that the difference is huge in the subtle realm and I would definitely go for the Grace preamps for my clear sound, if I get that sound when I try it with my voice...

As for tube or valve preamps... has anyone come across comparisons between the Manley tubes -I'm eyeing the Manley Force preamp-, the Thermionic Culture Earlybird 4 and the TubeTech MP2A...? Which do cost an arm and a leg, but some people are obsessed with cars... me with equipment it turns out... 😅

[EmilieM]

Originally Posted by beingmf

Recently I also started to substitute vanilla with Tonka bean. Very nice if it fits

Hmm Tonka beans... that sounds very daring and punchy! May try and do a side by side comparison, thanks for the tip

[jnorman34]

Well, it’s a long shot, but see if you can find a copy of the 3D Audio “3D Pre CD” and maybe even the 3D Audio “3D Mic CD”. They are both extremely informative. The pre cd compares 34 different mic preamps, and both CDs are produced under well controlled studio conditions by an excellent engineer, Lynn Fuston.

[EmilieM]

Originally Posted by jnorman34

Well, it’s a long shot, but see if you can find a copy of the 3D Audio “3D Pre CD” and maybe even the 3D Audio “3D Mic CD”. They are both extremely informative. The pre cd compares 34 different mic preamps, and both CDs are produced under well controlled studio conditions by an excellent engineer, Lynn Fuston.

Thanks, interesting! It's a shame he didn't include the Thermionic Culture and the Tube-Tech in the comparisons...