Go Back   Cockos Incorporated Forums > REAPER Forums > REAPER for Spatial Audio

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-05-2023, 06:12 AM   #1
BPBaker
Human being with feelings
 
BPBaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 209
Default Weirdness using Izotope Stratus/Symphony 3D in Reaper?

I used to be able to manually set Stratus and Symphony 3D to a 7.1.4 configuration when used on a 12 channel track. But as of a few months ago, these plugins only give me the option to select 7.0.6 when set to 12 channels. And previous projects that had been configured for 7.1.4 now load as 7.0.6.

I'm not entirely sure if this is due to a change in Reaper's VST3 approach in recent builds, or if this happened when I updated to Stratus/Symphony3D 3.1.0.

Can any Stratus/Symphony users confirm this issue?
BPBaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2023, 12:01 PM   #2
ScuzzyEye
Human being with feelings
 
ScuzzyEye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 451
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BPBaker View Post
Can any Stratus/Symphony users confirm this issue?
I'll check this evening. Luckily enough I made a list of all support channel arrangements a few versions of Reaper ago. I made the list by changing the VST bus size, and noting what configurations were available from mono up to 22.2. (My plan was to make Ambisonic (en-/de-)coders for all of the supported formats so I could use Stratus and Symphony, or others, in Ambisonic mixes--didn't finish that project yet, but I have the list.)
ScuzzyEye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2023, 02:30 PM   #3
ScuzzyEye
Human being with feelings
 
ScuzzyEye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 451
Default

OK, so I've checked. The user guide lists:
  • Auro 11.1
  • 7.1.4
  • 10.2
as the available modes when the plug-in is set to 12 channels. And you're right, it doesn't actually present any of those when the VST3 bus size is set 12. In fact, it goes into the 13 channel mode, and only offers 7.0.6.

But also when I made my list a couple months ago, using Reaper 6.76, I didn't include 7.1.4, I do have 7.1.6 for 14 channels. I see in the 6.76 release notes, "VST3: support 7.1.4, 9.1.4, and 9.1.6 speaker layouts (for FabFilter etc)", so I wonder...

I'll grab version 6.75 and do a portable install of it, and see if it has a 7.1.4 mode for Symphony 3D. (It takes a while to scan all my plug-ins with a fresh install, so stay tuned.)
ScuzzyEye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2023, 02:51 PM   #4
ScuzzyEye
Human being with feelings
 
ScuzzyEye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 451
Default

Your hunch was right. All the channels configurations are available in 6.75.

And gone in 6.76.
Attached Images
File Type: png 6.75 Channel Options.png (61.1 KB, 124 views)

Last edited by ScuzzyEye; 05-05-2023 at 02:54 PM. Reason: Tested in 6.76 also.
ScuzzyEye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2023, 06:29 PM   #5
drichard
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 584
Default

I'm seeing the same thing here with Symphony 3D. Bringing up the info screen, the I/O shows 12->13, so somehow it thinks there are 13 output channels. Mine shows 3.1 release, Sept 1, 2022.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BPBaker View Post
I used to be able to manually set Stratus and Symphony 3D to a 7.1.4 configuration when used on a 12 channel track. But as of a few months ago, these plugins only give me the option to select 7.0.6 when set to 12 channels. And previous projects that had been configured for 7.1.4 now load as 7.0.6.

I'm not entirely sure if this is due to a change in Reaper's VST3 approach in recent builds, or if this happened when I updated to Stratus/Symphony3D 3.1.0.

Can any Stratus/Symphony users confirm this issue?
drichard is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2023, 06:41 PM   #6
drichard
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 584
Default

Where are you getting the download for older versions? I bought Symphony 3D through Plugin Boutique and they only show the current version for download.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScuzzyEye View Post
OK, so I've checked. The user guide lists:
  • Auro 11.1
  • 7.1.4
  • 10.2
as the available modes when the plug-in is set to 12 channels. And you're right, it doesn't actually present any of those when the VST3 bus size is set 12. In fact, it goes into the 13 channel mode, and only offers 7.0.6.

But also when I made my list a couple months ago, using Reaper 6.76, I didn't include 7.1.4, I do have 7.1.6 for 14 channels. I see in the 6.76 release notes, "VST3: support 7.1.4, 9.1.4, and 9.1.6 speaker layouts (for FabFilter etc)", so I wonder...

I'll grab version 6.75 and do a portable install of it, and see if it has a 7.1.4 mode for Symphony 3D. (It takes a while to scan all my plug-ins with a fresh install, so stay tuned.)
drichard is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2023, 08:03 PM   #7
ScuzzyEye
Human being with feelings
 
ScuzzyEye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 451
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by drichard View Post
Where are you getting the download for older versions? I bought Symphony 3D through Plugin Boutique and they only show the current version for download.
I meant older versions of Reaper. You can find all previous releases and the patch notes here: https://www.reaper.fm/download-old.php
Versions 6.75 and before work correctly with the current versions of Exponential's 3D reverbs. I also posted a bug report for Reaper here: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=278962 Hard to say who's right in this, I do know that VST3 channel stuff is really messy, and making one plug-in happy can easily mess up another.
ScuzzyEye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2023, 04:12 AM   #8
drichard
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 584
Default

Thanks! I should have been reading the thread more carefully. I have reverted back to v6.75 for the time being. Hopefully this bug will be fixed soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScuzzyEye View Post
I meant older versions of Reaper. You can find all previous releases and the patch notes here: https://www.reaper.fm/download-old.php
Versions 6.75 and before work correctly with the current versions of Exponential's 3D reverbs. I also posted a bug report for Reaper here: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=278962 Hard to say who's right in this, I do know that VST3 channel stuff is really messy, and making one plug-in happy can easily mess up another.
drichard is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2023, 09:49 AM   #9
ScuzzyEye
Human being with feelings
 
ScuzzyEye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 451
Default

In the conversation with schwa about my bug report here, I'm pretty sure Reaper isn't doing anything incorrectly. So I have filed a bug report with iZotope. I'm wishing us all luck.

(It's also be nice if they added a 7.1.2 mode as an Atmos bed with height, but I'm not pushing my luck. I'll sum the front and rear of the .4 if they get that working again.)
ScuzzyEye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2023, 11:03 AM   #10
drichard
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 584
Default

Problem is that there may not be a lot of development happening at Exponential Audio. Since Izotope bought Exponential development seems to have slowed. But maybe this will be a high enough priority for it to get fixed.

While Reaper may theoretically not be doing anything incorrectly, something changed in how Symphony 3D reacts to it, and the change was in Reaper. As someone here said, it might be that fixing one plugin broke another.

App development in the past has examples where adhering to the specs broke plugins. A few years back Avid released a new version of Pro Tools that broke a large number of AAX plugins, despite that they claimed they were simply adhering to the AAX spec a bit more closely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScuzzyEye View Post
In the conversation with schwa about my bug report here, I'm pretty sure Reaper isn't doing anything incorrectly. So I have filed a bug report with iZotope. I'm wishing us all luck.

(It's also be nice if they added a 7.1.2 mode as an Atmos bed with height, but I'm not pushing my luck. I'll sum the front and rear of the .4 if they get that working again.)
drichard is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2023, 01:46 PM   #11
ScuzzyEye
Human being with feelings
 
ScuzzyEye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 451
Default

That's my worry too. Seems like all development at iZotope has slowed in the last couple years. They brought out that one Neoverb after acquiring Exponential, and it doesn't support multi-channel. Then they dropped all the Exponential line except the two 3D reverbs (granted they were updated to load all the other model's patches minus Excalibur).

Maybe some non-intrusive change can be made on the Reaper side. I know the Reaper devs aren't fans of plug-in specific work-arounds. But maybe some compatibility option can be added to not report some (or maybe all) speaker arrangements and rely only on channel counts.
ScuzzyEye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2023, 10:43 AM   #12
BPBaker
Human being with feelings
 
BPBaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 209
Default

Thanks for your confirmation, detective work, and proactive bug reports, ScuzzyEye. I'm doing the same with Izotope Customer Support and will direct them to these threads.

There also are so many minor things that could make Stratus/Symphony -- great sounding verbs -- easier to use (e.g. being able to set SMPTE/ITU channel order defaults. I always have re-pin the plugin for SMPTE order via Reaper.) I wish the developers put more attention to these things...
BPBaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2023, 11:32 AM   #13
ScuzzyEye
Human being with feelings
 
ScuzzyEye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 451
Default

Agreed. I've been using them transcoding to/from Ambisonics/22.2, and they are the most realistic/creative 3D reverbs I have. Some of the "ping-pong" type delays in Stratus are incredible. I was planning on using them in the channel mode closest to the Atmos bed format, so bug really got my attention.
ScuzzyEye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2023, 06:29 PM   #14
ScuzzyEye
Human being with feelings
 
ScuzzyEye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 451
Default

Did you get a response to your bug report with iZotope? I've gotten two, first was the usual, "uninstall and reinstall", I humored them, and actually found that the version on my Mac was out of date (both my Windows machines were good though), but of course that didn't change anything with the one particular channel mode, and I informed them of that. Got a follow up today, with them saying that, yes, they had confirmed it is a bug, and will be fixed, but not likely to be soon. They actually gave me a Reaper project file that had two Stratus3D instances on different sends. One configured for 7.1 and the other Quad. The idea being to route the height channels to the Quad and the lower channels to the 7.1. Interesting, but won't have the same effect as a single reverb operating in 7.1.4, because there is cross-talk between all the channels of the reverb, and that won't happen between the individual sends.
ScuzzyEye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2023, 07:28 PM   #15
drichard
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 584
Default

Does 7.1.2 (10 channels) work? If so, that might be a satisfactory workaround since it corresponds to the bed channels. I'm working in 6.75 right now so it is working, and today I'm too busy / lazy to reinstall a newer version to check what happens with 10 channels, but it might be worth a try.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScuzzyEye View Post
Did you get a response to your bug report with iZotope? I've gotten two, first was the usual, "uninstall and reinstall", I humored them, and actually found that the version on my Mac was out of date (both my Windows machines were good though), but of course that didn't change anything with the one particular channel mode, and I informed them of that. Got a follow up today, with them saying that, yes, they had confirmed it is a bug, and will be fixed, but not likely to be soon. They actually gave me a Reaper project file that had two Stratus3D instances on different sends. One configured for 7.1 and the other Quad. The idea being to route the height channels to the Quad and the lower channels to the 7.1. Interesting, but won't have the same effect as a single reverb operating in 7.1.4, because there is cross-talk between all the channels of the reverb, and that won't happen between the individual sends.
drichard is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2023, 07:29 PM   #16
drichard
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 584
Default

I forgot to thank you for following up on this. Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScuzzyEye View Post
Did you get a response to your bug report with iZotope? I've gotten two, first was the usual, "uninstall and reinstall", I humored them, and actually found that the version on my Mac was out of date (both my Windows machines were good though), but of course that didn't change anything with the one particular channel mode, and I informed them of that. Got a follow up today, with them saying that, yes, they had confirmed it is a bug, and will be fixed, but not likely to be soon. They actually gave me a Reaper project file that had two Stratus3D instances on different sends. One configured for 7.1 and the other Quad. The idea being to route the height channels to the Quad and the lower channels to the 7.1. Interesting, but won't have the same effect as a single reverb operating in 7.1.4, because there is cross-talk between all the channels of the reverb, and that won't happen between the individual sends.
drichard is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2023, 08:51 PM   #17
ScuzzyEye
Human being with feelings
 
ScuzzyEye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 451
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by drichard View Post
Does 7.1.2 (10 channels) work? If so, that might be a satisfactory workaround since it corresponds to the bed channels. I'm working in 6.75 right now so it is working, and today I'm too busy / lazy to reinstall a newer version to check what happens with 10 channels, but it might be worth a try.
So this is weird. I was looking at the 7.1.4 because of the list I was making based on both the documentation and actually setting every channel combination in the reverb, it was closest to 7.1.2, which is what I wanted for mixing straight to an Atmos bed. There is an "Atmos bed" listed in the docs, but when you set the reverb to 10 channels, the menu says, "Atmos 9.1 Bed", and "Auro 9.1", I made notes of those, and moved on. I didn't look closely at the "room" graphic until now. The Atmos 9.1, would more commonly be described as indeed 7.1.2 (yay!), and the Auro 5.1.4.

So, there's no longer a 7.1.4 mode, which I was going to mix into 7.1.2 by summing the heights, but amazingly, the mode I've been skipping 9.1 is actually 7.1.2. I'm glad I looked at this one more time.

Doesn't solve the OP's problem, but solves mine? 🤷
ScuzzyEye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2023, 12:57 AM   #18
drichard
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 584
Default

Very interesting. I have a 7.1.4 monitoring setup here, and so I've been mixing in that format. Using the Fiedler Beam panner, it defaults to putting 7.1 in the bed, ignores channels 9-10, and uses the first four object channels (11-14) for the height channels. But if I set up a 10 channel reverb I would be using the full 7.1.2 bed for reverb.

I'm still fairly new at Atmos and still developing my workflow. Using 10 channels might be a compromise and workable solution for me as well. I really hate not being able to use the most recent versions of Reaper, and I do want to be able to use this reverb.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ScuzzyEye View Post
So this is weird. I was looking at the 7.1.4 because of the list I was making based on both the documentation and actually setting every channel combination in the reverb, it was closest to 7.1.2, which is what I wanted for mixing straight to an Atmos bed. There is an "Atmos bed" listed in the docs, but when you set the reverb to 10 channels, the menu says, "Atmos 9.1 Bed", and "Auro 9.1", I made notes of those, and moved on. I didn't look closely at the "room" graphic until now. The Atmos 9.1, would more commonly be described as indeed 7.1.2 (yay!), and the Auro 5.1.4.

So, there's no longer a 7.1.4 mode, which I was going to mix into 7.1.2 by summing the heights, but amazingly, the mode I've been skipping 9.1 is actually 7.1.2. I'm glad I looked at this one more time.

Doesn't solve the OP's problem, but solves mine? 🤷
drichard is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2023, 06:12 AM   #19
BPBaker
Human being with feelings
 
BPBaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 209
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScuzzyEye View Post
Did you get a response to your bug report with iZotope?
Yes, with the same exact responses as you did. The two-instance option feels like a pretty impractical workaround IMO.

For now, I'm upping the track bus size to 14 channels to use the 7.1.6 layout in Stratus, then ignoring the middle two ceiling channels. (Though when using Stratus in an ambisonic context, it occurs to me I could instead just map all 7.1.6 channel positions and encode into HOA.)
BPBaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2023, 06:24 AM   #20
schwa
Administrator
 
schwa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 15,746
Default

For completeness, as discussed in this other thread on the subject, the underlying issue appears to be that these plugins interpret 7.1.4 as a 13-channel layout.

Prior to version 6.76, REAPER would not query the plugin about 7.1.4 specifically. The channel setup negotiation between the host and the plugin appears to go like this:

REAPER 6.75:

REAPER: do you support 11.1 speaker layout?
Plugin: yes, I do.
REAPER: ok, let's agree to that layout.
Plugin: ok, that layout has 12 speakers, so the user can choose a 12 speaker layout from a list that includes 7.1.4, etc.

REAPER 6.76:

REAPER: do you support 7.1.4 speaker layout?
Plugin: yes, I do.
REAPER: ok, let's agree to that layout.
Plugin: ok, that layout has 13 speakers, so the user can choose a 13 speaker layout from a list that includes 7.0.6, etc. The list does not include 7.1.4.
schwa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2023, 06:51 AM   #21
BPBaker
Human being with feelings
 
BPBaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 209
Default

Thanks, Schwa! Seems like Izotope recognizes the problem is on their end--here's hoping it doesn't take too long for them to issue an update.

(And I'm appreciative, as always, of your willingness to engage with users at this level of detail. Would that other developers could be as responsive!)

Last edited by BPBaker; 05-10-2023 at 07:35 AM.
BPBaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2023, 08:12 AM   #22
drichard
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 584
Default

Thank you for the clarification. Pity they don't have it right on their end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
For completeness, as discussed in this other thread on the subject, the underlying issue appears to be that these plugins interpret 7.1.4 as a 13-channel layout.

Prior to version 6.76, REAPER would not query the plugin about 7.1.4 specifically. The channel setup negotiation between the host and the plugin appears to go like this:

REAPER 6.75:

REAPER: do you support 11.1 speaker layout?
Plugin: yes, I do.
REAPER: ok, let's agree to that layout.
Plugin: ok, that layout has 12 speakers, so the user can choose a 12 speaker layout from a list that includes 7.1.4, etc.

REAPER 6.76:

REAPER: do you support 7.1.4 speaker layout?
Plugin: yes, I do.
REAPER: ok, let's agree to that layout.
Plugin: ok, that layout has 13 speakers, so the user can choose a 13 speaker layout from a list that includes 7.0.6, etc. The list does not include 7.1.4.
drichard is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2023, 08:41 AM   #23
ScuzzyEye
Human being with feelings
 
ScuzzyEye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 451
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
For completeness, as discussed in this other thread on the subject, the underlying issue appears to be that these plugins interpret 7.1.4 as a 13-channel layout.
Sorry, I didn't abandon that thread because was unhappy with your answer. I didn't follow up there anymore, as soon as it was clear that Reaper was right, as to not disturb you any more. But yes, those details were very helpful in making it clear to iZotope what was going on. I pretty much quoted that "conversation" to them in my follow up, and they came back with, yep, that's a bug.
ScuzzyEye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2023, 10:45 AM   #24
BPBaker
Human being with feelings
 
BPBaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 209
Default

I just had another email exchange with Izotope Support, who offered this from a surround guide put together by the original Exponential developer.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/anxcrs9yyj...83%29.pdf?dl=0

On page 57 RE configuring in Reaper, it says:

Quote:
There is insufficient support in the Reaper environment to provide all plugin formats or to provide them as conveniently as with other DAWs. Because multichannel in Reaper is built up from groups of stereo channels, only formats with even channel counts are available. The formats shown in the table below are supported. Whenever a plugin is instantiated, it will appear as a default format. The desired format must be selected from the Format Selector popup window in the center-left portion of the plugin window.

In addition, there is a fixed signal routing that must be used in the Reaper environment. It is up to the user to configure routing to and from the track holding the plugin. It is unlikely that this routing can always be achieved inline, so use of an aux track is recommended. This routing is listed here (L=Left, R=Right, C=Center, LFE=LFE, LR=Left Rear, RR=Right Rear, CR=Center Rear, LS=Left Side, RS=Right Side, LC=Left Center, RC=Right Center).
The first paragraph, from my understanding and based on what Schwa said, seems like outdated info.

I've also suggested that they allow for different SMPTE/ITU channel orders as a preference in the plugin itself, as other plugins (including some from Izotope) do.

Last edited by BPBaker; 05-10-2023 at 11:16 AM.
BPBaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2023, 10:49 AM   #25
BPBaker
Human being with feelings
 
BPBaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 209
Default

On a related note, I'm also frustrated to discover Izotope's Neutron 4 doesn't work in surround in Reaper at all, despite working in up to 7.1 on other DAWS. When I asked Izotope Support about that, they only said it "wasn't officially supported" without offering any further detail.

I'm wondering if that, too, is based on an outdated understanding of Reaper's VST3 capability?
BPBaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2023, 10:52 AM   #26
schwa
Administrator
 
schwa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 15,746
Default

The first paragraph there is fair, basically. REAPER does not know or care about the difference between an 11.1 track and a 7.1.4 track, all REAPER knows is that the track has 12 channels and the user can assign whatever meaning they want to each channel. So if REAPER negotiates a 12-channel format with the plugin, it's good behavior for the plugin to then offer a choice of exactly which 12-channel layout is preferred.
schwa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2023, 11:00 AM   #27
fakemaxwell
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 586
Default

Yeah this is unfortunately probably not going to be fixed by Izotope. For whatever reason they've given up on developing the Exponential reverbs after using them for Dialogue Match (works sort of okay) and Neoverb (terrible).

The reverbs sound great but they quickly become less useful as issues like this pile up. Seems like a waste.
fakemaxwell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2023, 11:14 AM   #28
BPBaker
Human being with feelings
 
BPBaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 209
Default

Ah, okay, thanks for clarifying - when you mentioned that REAPER now "queries" the plugin to negotiate the format, I misunderstood that as meaning REAPER offered the plugin something more specific than stereo pairs (i.e. a "true" multichannel bus, whatever that might mean). Having the plugin give a list with multiple formats for the appropriate channel count is what makes the most sense to me (so long as their list actually includes the correct layouts)!

While we're on this subject, any thoughts as to why Neutron 4 wouldn't show up as a multichannel plugin in Reaper when using VST3/8 channels?
BPBaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2023, 01:16 PM   #29
ScuzzyEye
Human being with feelings
 
ScuzzyEye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 451
Default

And to be clear about Reaper's capabilities wrt channel counts. While it's true that tracks can only have even numbers of channels, with VST3 plug-ins, the VST3 bus size can be any number even or odd. The Exponential Audio reverbs recognize this too. If you set a track to 8 channels, and a VST bus size of 7, you get the 7-channel modes like 7.0 and 6.1. (You can also set the track to 14 channels, and the bus to 13, and see the 7.0.6 just like you do when it misinterprets 7.1.4 as being 13 channels wide.)

That's why I was asking in the bug report thread, if it is possible (i.e. valid as a VST3 host) to implement a plug-in compatibility flag where Reaper doesn't attempt to negotiate any speaker arrangements, and simply tells the the plug-in the bus size. I can't recall off the top of my head when it was, but I'm pretty sure I've seen some other plug-in make odd assumptions about the what that channels are going to be used for. Probably because they accepted one speaker arrangement, and didn't present any alternatives to the user. (I also wonder if that would change the behavior of Neutron 4.)
ScuzzyEye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2023, 08:37 AM   #30
BPBaker
Human being with feelings
 
BPBaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 209
Default

This is how Izotope responded when I asked about Nuetron 4 not being supported for surround in REAPER:

Quote:
Neutron 4 doesn't support surround in Reaper due to how they handle surround audio protocols. They don't go about it like other DAWs, I'm afraid. It has to do with how multichannel in Reaper is built up from groups of stereo channels so only formats with even channel counts are available.

If we supported surround in Reaper, then our side chain features in Neutron wouldn't work.

So our teams had to make a decision to support surround or support side chain. Since side chain is a more widely used feature in the product we went with that.

If you wish to use Neutron in surround mode you'll need to use another host other than Reaper.
FWIW Being able to do odd VST3 bus sizes, as ScuzzyEye mentioned, is what made me think Izotope may be working with outdated information WRT REAPER's multichannel capability (at least via VST3).

It seems like it shouldn't be an "either/or" with sidechain and surround. (Other plugins can handle both...) Perhaps users might need to be more conscious about how to pin out the sidechain under certain circumstances, but that seems like par for the course when working with surround/spatial plugins.

Perhaps this seems too complicated and their design philosophy prioritizes non-advanced users, but I wish they gave us an advanced option to manually configure the channel format for whatever the plugin can support, like Stratus.
BPBaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2023, 11:06 AM   #31
benmiller
Human being with feelings
 
benmiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 324
Default

just noticed the same thing about not beeing able to get 7.1.4 in stratus...
anyworkaround ? appart from irgnoring 2 overhead channels?
as for odd numbers for the vst bus in reaper, i see odd numbers up to 10 and then it continues with always bigger jumps (12, 14, 16, 20 etc..) so i what izotope is saying is not partly true.
benmiller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2023, 05:28 PM   #32
potscrubber
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 19
Default

Sadly not addressed in Izotope Latest Update: : 3.2.0
Released: : September 20, 2023
https://www.izotope.com/en/products/downloads.html

Workarounds for now (and maybe till the sun runs out of hydrogen):
1) choose VST3 bus size 14 (7.1.6) and re-pin plug outputs 13/14 to Track Channel 11/12
2) host in 12ch Plogue Bidule VST plugin with Stratus/Symphony instantiated as 12 in / 12 out. 7.1.4 is select-able then so I guess Bidule queries the plugin for 11.1 as per Schwa's not on methods past & present.
potscrubber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2023, 01:18 PM   #33
BPBaker
Human being with feelings
 
BPBaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 209
Default

What a bummer, Izotope. Really, all they need to do is create an extra option to manually set the channel count. It could be hidden in the settings where it wouldn't bother anyone.

If only other audio developers were as thoughtful about flexibility as Reaper's devs...
BPBaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2023, 03:58 PM   #34
ScuzzyEye
Human being with feelings
 
ScuzzyEye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 451
Default

I've pretty much stopped reaching for Stratus and Symphony for Atmos beds at this point. I have a lot of other choices now that all work correctly.

All of these, when put on a 10-channel track in Reaper, automatically go into 7.1.2 mode:
Acon Digital Verberate Immersive, Eventide Blackhole Immersive, FLUX:: IRCAM Tools - Verb, FabFilter Pro-R2. Fiedler Audio Spacelab Interstellar does default to stereo, but it's just a few clicks to change it to 7.1.2.
ScuzzyEye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2023, 01:44 PM   #35
fotisandstuff
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Greece
Posts: 44
Default

This is indeed a bummer. Thanks for the heads up, everyone!
fotisandstuff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2023, 07:59 AM   #36
Softsynth
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 8,696
Default

I don't think there have been any serious updates for the Michael Carnes iZotope/Exponential Audio reverbs since 2019 has there?
Maybe some maintenance for those 3D reverbs Op System compatibility?

Mr Carnes retired in 2020. Perhaps he carried out all the proper work on those plugins and iZotope had already decided to not bother investing in further development or support when they sold off the stereo reverbs for next to nothing through Plugin Boutique?
I think they still have the comedy high original prices on iZotope website though.

For iZotope the surround reverbs have significantly less affordable competition so perhaps iZotope (and the investment company that bought them, Native Instruments and Plugin Alliance) enjoyed recuperating some of their Exp.Audio investment with those?

I don't suppose Neoverb is going to be made into a "3d" version either, unless they get into peddling video editing suites.
Softsynth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2024, 05:38 AM   #37
Kostas Stylianou
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 2
Default

In the plugin's routing, you can select any VST bus size you want in order to get the plugin's channels to work correctly. This has solved any problem I had with these kinds of plugins.
Kostas Stylianou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2024, 09:25 AM   #38
ScuzzyEye
Human being with feelings
 
ScuzzyEye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 451
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kostas Stylianou View Post
In the plugin's routing, you can select any VST bus size you want in order to get the plugin's channels to work correctly. This has solved any problem I had with these kinds of plugins.
That usually does solve it, but not so with these Exponential Audio reverbs. There are some channel configurations that the reverbs supposedly support that no bus size setting in Reaper will trigger.
ScuzzyEye is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:15 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.