Old 06-01-2017, 03:47 PM   #121
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Yeah, but bump that CPU to an 8 core, RAM to 64 GB and the SSD to even half a TB, and you're looking at what, $5000 ? $6000 ? The base model is always the one with less margin, although you can still get significantly better spec for the same money, but when you start upping the specs the price goes bananas.
And you can't upgrade it after buying it, so you need to aim high.
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Old 06-01-2017, 03:51 PM   #122
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I like using my 20 years old programs on Windows. OSX makes similar stuff impossible since they like to break stuff way too often. So no.


Also, no need to run AV on Windows if you have half of good brain when you surf the Internet. Built-in Defender is plenty enough.
You saved me writing same thing.

The only thing I would really like from Mac is the look of the fonts. I'm not keen on Microsoft Cleartype. Hoping one day Microsoft will give an option to have similar image quality.

Other than that. Differences, pfff, meh.......

Apple are letting their desktops slide, they protest this isn't happening:
https://www.extremetech.com/computin...desktops-macos
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Old 06-01-2017, 03:55 PM   #123
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I've thought about it and Windows is still great. And yes, I'm talking about W10.
Every os has it's pros and cons. For myself, the lack of control over which updates I want to apply on my machine, the general shady behavior by Microsoft after win 7 (and probably before that, should I look back), the privacy issues, etc. are too much to swallow. And of course, quite a number of users have had some very bad technical experiences with windows 10, which only adds to the pile of, nope. Maybe 10 does function well for a majority (and maybe not - hard to tell, given the marketing machine pushing windows 10), but on levels of user control, user privacy, and general ethics, windows 10 does not work for many of us.
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Old 06-01-2017, 04:10 PM   #124
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Dell doesn't sell a desktop in that range until you get into their business oriented PowerEdge line. Comparable speced PowerEdge T430 is $3k.
Oh, and I checked: PowerEdge T430 with a newer model ten core Xeon (compared to the entry level Mac Pro six-core), 64 GB of RAM, and so on. Still under $3k. Of course, as a server build it's not that directly comparable, but you brought it up . Here in the EU, I'd recommend checking out something like Schenker. The Cad Station, for example.

On the laptop front, same thing, like their customizable 15" models. The Compact 15" with an i7 CPU, 32 GB RAM, a terabyte of SSD, GTX 1060 GPU with 6 GB video RAM, and so on. Barely over 2000 euros [or well under, if not paying VAT]. Bump the display resolution skyhigh (3820 x 2160) or maybe the RAM to 64 GB, and it's still in the same price category as the low level 15" Macbook Pros.

Used quite a bit in game development and the like over here.

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Old 06-01-2017, 05:01 PM   #125
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Windows 10 is the 2nd Microsoft OS I'm skipping and I will slowly migrate to OS-X for audio. It is just not worth my time to deal with that MS POS. Microsoft is officially dead for me. Except the good old XP and 7, that is. For now.

In the mean time I'm using Linux for daily tasks and very clean Windows 7 and XP without Internet connection. I use two computers with two Windows/Debian Linux dual boots so I can use Internet on both. Sailing smoothly and feels very liberating! For 4 years now. I need not worry about Microsoft any more. Just sitting comfortably on the side with a big grin on my face while the cats and dogs are playing [praying?]. It kinda fun.

As an added huge bonus, with both OS-X and Linux you don't need to have antivirus installed.

Really, get a grip guys. Getting rid of Windows will save you a ton of time and nerves. Just move on already! d= =b Or stay with an older version for as long as it serves you well. There is absolutely nothing [aside Thunderbolt, but OS-X has great support for TB if you need it] special in W10 that is of any use for audio. Think about it.

Cheers!
Good for you. I have two computers, an old Gateway with Windows 7, on which I used to do my music, and the new one mentioned above, on which I now do my music. The new one is almost never online, and off by default, so very little chance of infection. Which allows me to use MSE as AV, which is nice as there is no power drain. On the Gateway, I also have three different Linux distros. That is what I go online with. so very safe there also. I'm settling in with Ubuntu Mate as my favorite distro. I'm also hoping I can do my music on Linux someday, but since I do classical, I need a lot of Windows VST's, which may not be workable. So I'll keep using W7 Pro on my music rig, even past the EOL in 2020 if necessary. W7 was MS's last decent OS.
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Old 06-01-2017, 05:09 PM   #126
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Really, get a grip guys. Getting rid of Windows will save you a ton of time and nerves.
What's important here is each person needs to use the product that works for them (that means there needs to be more than one product). The experience you explain is extremely foreign to me for example, it simply doesn't nor ever has been remotely like your experience oddly enough.

I do certainly applaud, support and suggest that you use what works - it's the place every person wants to be, working. Everyone is different in what works for them, frustrates them and how they interpret and handle pretty much everything in life. Find yours, live it, love it.
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Old 06-01-2017, 08:28 PM   #127
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I hope nobody thinks I hate XP and W7! But when I read my post - yes it certainly can make you think that. Actually, my favourite OS for audio is XP as it is so easy and fast to use. It just stays out of the way and I really appreciate that from an OS.

7 is alright but it can be a bit annoying at times and you already have to disable so many things that I spend 20 minutes installing the OS and then several hours tweaking it. For 10 it would probably take me whole day. LOL

What I forgot to mention is that that updating and having newer OS is rather unnecessary for musicians and artists, and gamers too, since there are no real performance gains, on the contrary. So annoyance and learning the new GUI + more tweaking + lower performance [I mean real-time performance] = using good old XP and 7 for me.

Simple. why bother? Only if suddenly the software I use stopped working on these and that won't happen since I use lots of older software and I'm more hardware centred anyway!

Regarding OS-X it is the only OS I would use *after* Windows, but hopefully Linux for audio. We'll see what happens. I am only interested in what's working with my a bit older hardware samplers and interfaces, and I need to use some software that dates to 2001, too!

The "liberation part" is mostly about how easy it is to use Linux for daily tasks and XP/7 for audio without Internet. No worries of any kind, no upgrading/patching Windows, only Linux and it does it very gracefully, as opposed to W10.

Majority of my clients are thinking of going to OS-X [some Hackintosh route, some Apple route, some both], but still generally using W7x64 dual-boot or Internet OS within VM. I know 1 guy that uses W10 for audio and it's only because he uses an UA Thunderbolt audio interface.

I absolutely agree that one should use what works best for you. There's nothing wrong with it. But some people think there are is no choice! So it is very important to tell them that there are choices that can make their lives easier and their data safer!

Cheers!
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Old 06-02-2017, 12:02 AM   #128
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I know 1 guy that uses W10 for audio and it's only because he uses an UA Thunderbolt audio interface.
Now you know another one: I'm using RME UFX+ over Thunderbolt on W10. Why? Because it's awesome and supports more channels over TB than USB3. And why again? Because I dislike macOS with a passion - and simply don't gel with it on any level, as well as Apple's planned obsolence schemes.
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Old 06-02-2017, 03:27 AM   #129
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What I forgot to mention is that that updating and having newer OS is rather unnecessary for musicians and artists, and gamers too, since there are no real performance gains, on the contrary. So annoyance and learning the new GUI + more tweaking + lower performance [I mean real-time performance] = using good old XP and 7 for me.
Nobody to my knowledge has demonstrated that Win 7 has better low latency performance than Win 10. This is since the release of Win 10, which has since had an additional couple of rounds of optimisations.

It's funny mentioning performance and then going on about OSX though. Thanks for that. Read this to have a chuckle at OSX (which is always good)...

http://www.dawbench.com/win7-v-osx-1.htm

And also note from this that Windows 7 has better low latency performance than Windows XP, even though the artificial DPC readouts would tell you otherwise if you didn't take into account differences in how they are calculated and the myriad of other optimisations that can happen from version to version.

I'd love to see Win 10 vs Win 7 in this benchmark, but what is clear is that feelings about what is or isn't better are irrelevant.
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Old 06-02-2017, 03:41 AM   #130
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I'd love to see Win 10 vs Win 7 in this benchmark, but what is clear is that feelings about what is or isn't better are irrelevant.
Well said.

Me, I'm running a rock solid i7-3770K Windows 7 Pro 64bit system over here with RME HDSPe AIO. The latency and performance are frankly superb. And it doesn't flake out on you at all, ever, even when system uptime is in weeks or months. Currently "only" nine days uptime, it seems. Hah. It's a dedicated audio system with carefully selected parts, of course.

When working on a large commission, I just keep the projects open at all times. Doesn't crash, doesn't do anything unexpected, just works. I'm not exaggerating here, this is how I work and if this setup had any problems, I'd change it and tell others about it :P

Haven't made up my mind how I'm going to proceed when eventually purchasing a new system, at some point in the future, but luckily I don't feel any need to do so at the moment.
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Old 06-02-2017, 08:23 AM   #131
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Have to say the combination of Win7 and RME was golden for me for the most part.

But then, having already done early betas on 7, I just naturally did the same with 8 8.1 and eventually 10. All been pretty seamless for me.
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Old 06-02-2017, 08:28 AM   #132
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Well said.

Me, I'm running a rock solid i7-3770K Windows 7 Pro 64bit system over here with RME HDSPe AIO. The latency and performance are frankly superb. And it doesn't flake out on you at all, ever, even when system uptime is in weeks or months. Currently "only" nine days uptime, it seems. Hah. It's a dedicated audio system with carefully selected parts, of course.

When working on a large commission, I just keep the projects open at all times. Doesn't crash, doesn't do anything unexpected, just works. I'm not exaggerating here, this is how I work and if this setup had any problems, I'd change it and tell others about it :P

Haven't made up my mind how I'm going to proceed when eventually purchasing a new system, at some point in the future, but luckily I don't feel any need to do so at the moment.
Darn rational thinking !! When income, customer satisfaction on the line, making 'arbitrary' change doesn't make much sense.

OTH, some have the comfort of not 'depending' on DAW for sustenance and can enjoy working with newest releases. How in the heck will Win10 grow and improve if serious, capable Users fail to get involved and provide useful input to MS ???

Over time, many will switch and enjoy, with little (if any) regard for those who contributed early-on.
So be it; onward and upward !!

Win10 Pro works quite well here and pros outweigh cons for daily needs/wants.

Applaud you talented people who produce incredible results, no matter your choice of tools.
Down the road, Win10 will mature and be there when the time is right !
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Old 06-06-2017, 04:46 PM   #133
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What I find seriously annoying about W10 is that it can change your default file associations just like that. Html, pdf, mp3, it can happen to anything. And yes, I know about 'StopResettingMyApps', but even that is not 100% M$-proof.. And, it doesn't fix problems with pdf and mp3 either..
Just my 2 cents..
There might be rationale behind that. But is switched back with a few touches, clicks or keys.

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All the corporate customers ...
Been on Creators Update for a week. Did a wrong registry tweak and explorer.exe process started hanging. Did a system restore to the state directly after the update - everything works fine! Case in point: don't do unnecessary registry tweaks, just let the OS work as designed. And lo and behold - it works as designed! Stable, no crashes, and boots every time!
That! Don't do *any* registry tweaks, stick with defaults. Only change something after you experienced a problem.

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Thanks, Sostenuto. At least one person realizes I'm not trying to attack the OP.

Unfortunately, these threads quickly degenerate into anti-Microsoft and/or anti-Windows rants that don't help anyone and actually make matters much worse for less experienced users.
...
That said, my own little rant is not directed at the OP. I have no evidence he has done any of what I mention - he just seems to me like he is a victim of all the misinformation and anti-Microsoft bs polluting the web. This thread is a perfect example: very little help or information and lots of anti-Win vitriol.
Thank you!

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I am the OP and I don't not agree with you... ... However, I personally resent M$ for taking away some very simple, basic options... example: you want a desktop with a solid background... ANY you want to set the color from 'more colors' options... geeez M$
There is more but I'll leave it there for today
Writing 'M$' is so 2007. And you're proving the point of this being another pile of a lot of disinformation no good to anybody including yourself apparently.

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Originally Posted by BM1000 View Post
Just to drop my two cents on Win 10 Pro.

... and the only annoying bit was when Windows asked whether I would like to try Edge, obviously not. ...
Accept a system as it was designed. Maybe there is a *reason* behind offering you a fast, secure and specially designed windows browser?

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This is not a new criticism, BUT why do many here believe this is done? Surely they are not stupid or ignorant. You do not believe this and neither do I .

What could possibly be their motive ... and what, specifically are the "unwanted and crappy features" .... MS is surely trying make their product appealing to the widest range of 'global' consumers. If we assume MS is successful, how do we define any blocks of content ... so objectionable ..... that it can be defined and removed ?

One cannot deal rationally _ with other than rational _ issues. There often seems to be an assumption that MS is behaving irrationally. I do not believe this, so am forced to try to sort their rational behavior and move forward from there ....
Thank you!

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Agree, BM1000. Microsoft is the opposite of Reaper. It is as you point out a monopoly. Monopolies are always arrogant and often unethical. Remember the railroads? Not very nice. Reaper just wants to be one of many DAWS. They don't want to rule the world, force others out of existence, then jack up the price, etc. They are living proof that a company can exist as a profit-making enterprise, and still be ethical, friendly and respectful of their consumers, even when other companies are becoming bloated, buggy, overpriced cash cows.
And some more disinformation (and so 2007)

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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
What's important here is each person needs to use the product that works for them (that means there needs to be more than one product). The experience you explain is extremely foreign to me for example, it simply doesn't nor ever has been remotely like your experience oddly enough.

I do certainly applaud, support and suggest that you use what works - it's the place every person wants to be, working. Everyone is different in what works for them, frustrates them and how they interpret and handle pretty much everything in life. Find yours, live it, love it.
Thank you too!

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Originally Posted by snooks View Post
Nobody to my knowledge has demonstrated that Win 7 has better low latency performance than Win 10. This is since the release of Win 10, which has since had an additional couple of rounds of optimisations.

It's funny mentioning performance and then going on about OSX though. Thanks for that. Read this to have a chuckle at OSX (which is always good)...

http://www.dawbench.com/win7-v-osx-1.htm

And also note from this that Windows 7 has better low latency performance than Windows XP, even though the artificial DPC readouts would tell you otherwise if you didn't take into account differences in how they are calculated and the myriad of other optimisations that can happen from version to version.

I'd love to see Win 10 vs Win 7 in this benchmark, but what is clear is that feelings about what is or isn't better are irrelevant.
And thank you!

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Originally Posted by sostenuto View Post
Darn rational thinking !! When income, customer satisfaction on the line, making 'arbitrary' change doesn't make much sense.

OTH, some have the comfort of not 'depending' on DAW for sustenance and can enjoy working with newest releases. How in the heck will Win10 grow and improve if serious, capable Users fail to get involved and provide useful input to MS ???

Over time, many will switch and enjoy, with little (if any) regard for those who contributed early-on.
So be it; onward and upward !!

Win10 Pro works quite well here and pros outweigh cons for daily needs/wants.

Applaud you talented people who produce incredible results, no matter your choice of tools.
Down the road, Win10 will mature and be there when the time is right !
Thank you, feedback hub is excellent to help this OS getting better and better. A lot of (popular) requests are honored and bug are fixed. Bashing is so counter productive. Feedback is what developers need and the door is wide open @ microsoft
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Old 06-07-2017, 03:34 AM   #134
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I like using my 20 years old programs on Windows (some stuff like old hardware synth editors for things like my Kawai K5000R, for example). OSX makes similar stuff impossible (or at least, more complicated because you have to virtualize - and even that's not possible for OS9 apps any longer, for example) since they like to break stuff way too often. So no.
The only thing that makes it a bit harder to run old stuff, is the fact that Apple is on it's second OS, running on the 3rd hardware platform.

The advantage these days is you can easily run most Linux software, something that should work with Win10 too now.

Quote:
Also, no need to run AV on Windows if you have your wits together when you surf the Internet (and never use other people's USB sticks - use Dropbox or somesuch instead to transfer data from somebody). Built-in Defender is plenty enough.
Euhmmm... Just at the point in time where I'm trying to convince some OSX users to maybe run AV, you state that AV isn't a need on Windows? But then you run Defender...

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I've thought about it and Windows is still great. And yes, I'm talking about W10.
It all depends on your needs and what you want to do.

Anyhow. It seems MS might be preparing a "Windows 10 for workstations"...

According to The Verge:

https://www.theverge.com/2017/6/5/15...d-pcs-features

Maybe that will be a good thing for DAW users?
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Old 06-07-2017, 03:54 AM   #135
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Euhmmm... Just at the point in time where I'm trying to convince some OSX users to maybe run AV, you state that AV isn't a need on Windows? But then you run Defender...
I run Defender just because it's there from the get go and it costs me nothing - plus it's really low on resource usage. I used NOD32 before. Never a problem.

I could even disable Defender and still be perfectly safe, because I know how to browse Internet safely and don't plug anyone's USB sticks into my computer.
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Old 06-07-2017, 04:10 AM   #136
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I run Defender just because it's there from the get go and it costs me nothing - plus it's really low on resource usage. I used NOD32 before. Never a problem.

I could even disable Defender and still be perfectly safe, because I know how to browse Internet safely and don't plug anyone's USB sticks into my computer.
And I guess you (like me) do not click on clickbait celebrity gossip pages, or torrent site stolen software as those are a source of viruses.
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Old 06-07-2017, 04:21 AM   #137
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That's true.

Although, I feel torrents get a too bad rap, honestly. They can be immensely useful! And private trackers do exist which have nothing to do with virus infestations whatsoever...
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Old 06-07-2017, 04:29 AM   #138
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That's true.

Although, I feel torrents get a too bad rap, honestly. They can be immensely useful! And private trackers do exist which have nothing to do with virus infestations whatsoever...
True but you obviously know what you are doing. a lot of people don't, in which case general advice is better to stay away.

Generally if it looks too good to be true.....
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Old 06-07-2017, 07:12 AM   #139
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I run Defender just because it's there from the get go and it costs me nothing - plus it's really low on resource usage. I used NOD32 before. Never a problem.

I could even disable Defender and still be perfectly safe, because I know how to browse Internet safely and don't plug anyone's USB sticks into my computer.
You've just been lucky.

Even hovering a link in your browser could install malware these days.

It depends on your bank account if you're an attractive target, though. There's a malware campaign goin' on that's so stealthy it took researchers over a year to notice it. And it's on OSX and Linux too. If you've not been hit yet, your turn might come or you're not interesting to the malware authors. They seem mainly interested in aerospace and pharma. Even banks are not interesting, apparently.

Needless to say there's not one AV solution that stops the infection.
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Old 06-07-2017, 07:19 AM   #140
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That's true.

Although, I feel torrents get a too bad rap, honestly. They can be immensely useful! And private trackers do exist which have nothing to do with virus infestations whatsoever...
You betcha!

I try to collect malware from torrents. Guided by the feeling "to good to be true".

There's not that much around that's infected. Sure, if you want the latest OSX beta BEFORE Apple released it, you can be certain it's trojaned. But even that is rare these days. Used to be different five or ten years ago.

Or rather, I tried. These days, it's next to impossible to find the latest and greatest malware on the net. It simply isn't "on the net" anymore. It's in a mail, or even in subtitles of that video you're watching...

The difference is: the attacks are targeted. Not really a virus, as the spreading is guided by some command and control mechanism somewhere.
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