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Old 03-19-2017, 02:31 PM   #1
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Default "Panning half left": What exactly does that mean?

I'm reading someone's description of recording techniques he used in the 1950's, and he says he panned one mono signal "half left". I want to emulate what he did, but he doesn't specify the pan-law in his system, so the term "half left" is ambiguous to me. Easy for me to turn Reaper's panning control halfway between center and far-left, but what pan-law should I use to emulate this guy's description?
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Old 03-19-2017, 02:42 PM   #2
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Hard to say without knowing what he was mixing on.
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Old 03-19-2017, 03:26 PM   #3
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Hard to say without knowing what he was mixing on.
I don't know, but he was engineering for Decca in the 1950's.
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Old 03-19-2017, 03:58 PM   #4
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Well, you could do the experiment, have a signal panned 50%L and switch the pan laws. I bet you don't much change in the right/left ratio.
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Old 03-19-2017, 04:04 PM   #5
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Don't get too hang up on this. Pan half left, then set your master to mono, set panned tracks level, and then set master back to stereo.
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Old 03-19-2017, 04:19 PM   #6
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Well, you could do the experiment, have a signal panned 50%L and switch the pan laws. I bet you don't much change in the right/left ratio.
Good point. Pan Law maybe will affect the overall loudness, but not the L/R ratio? (I'm speculating since I haven't mastered what "Pan Law" means.)

I'm still unsure what amplitude-ratio or power-ratio between L and R corresponds to the term "half left", but I'll investigate by setting Reaper's pan to 50%L and watching the meters.

Thanks.
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Old 03-19-2017, 04:20 PM   #7
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Don't get too hang up on this. Pan half left, then set your master to mono, set panned tracks level, and then set master back to stereo.
Thank you.
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Old 03-19-2017, 05:18 PM   #8
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Here are the results of some experiments (all with "Gain compensation" switched off):

Code:
Source: -6 dB, centered

Pan 100%L
Pan-Law  0: Output (Left -6, Right silence)
Pan-Law -6: Output (Left -6, Right silence)

Pan 50%L
Pan-Law  0: Output (Left -4.20, Right -11.9)
Pan-Law -3: Output (Left -6.68, Right -14.3)
Pan-Law -6: Output (Left -9   , Right -16.7)

Pan Center
Pan-Law  0: Output (Left - 6, Right - 6)
Pan Law -6: Output (Left -12, Right -12)

(- -4.20 -11.9)
7.7

(- -6.68 -14.3)
7.620000000000001

(- -9 -16.7)
7.699999999999999
Reaper's Pan-Law does affect L/R ratio, though the exact relation is undocumented.

Last edited by TryingToMakeMusic; 03-19-2017 at 05:38 PM.
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Old 03-19-2017, 06:28 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by TryingToMakeMusic View Post
I'm still unsure what amplitude-ratio or power-ratio between L and R corresponds to the term "half left", but I'll investigate by setting Reaper's pan to 50%L and watching the meters.
Half = 50%. The tutorial you're reading has the track panned 50% left. You just don't know what pan law their gear was using.
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Old 03-19-2017, 06:55 PM   #10
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I didn't even know they had pan pots in the 50's, let alone pan laws.

I would suggest that a difference of 0.05dB is insignificant.

No wonder you're still trying to make music if this is what you spend your time on
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Old 03-19-2017, 07:17 PM   #11
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I didn't even know they had pan pots in the 50's, let alone pan laws.
In the 50's, the Decca equipment operated by this engineer outputted a very specific L/R ratio when he set it to "half left", and that ratio is what I'm after.

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I would suggest that a difference of 0.05dB is insignificant.

No wonder you're still trying to make music if this is what you spend your time on
"TryingToMakeToolsWithRazorSharpAccuracyForProfess ionalProducersToUse" would have been too long a name. Normally I don't overlook differences of 0.05 dB, but in this case I may have to. There are plenty of developers who cut 0.05dB corners, but I'm not one.

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Old 03-19-2017, 07:26 PM   #12
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Half = 50%. The tutorial you're reading has the track panned 50% left. You just don't know what pan law their gear was using.
By "50%", you mean 50% under Linear Panning, Square-Root Panning, Sinusoidal Panning, Reaper's (undocumented) panning-formula, or Decca's (unknown) panning formula?

As I noted above (without explanation), "50%L" means a L/R ratio of 7.7 dB for Reaper's pan-laws 0 and -6, but it means a L/R ratio of 7.620000000000001 dB for Reaper's pan-law -3. Those values are unequal, but Reaper calls them both "50%L". (Or, some error was introduced by Melda LoudnessAnalyzer, or by me.)
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Old 03-19-2017, 09:18 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by TryingToMakeMusic View Post
By "50%", you mean 50% under Linear Panning, Square-Root Panning, Sinusoidal Panning, Reaper's (undocumented) panning-formula, or Decca's (unknown) panning formula?
I mean the knob is turned halfway, and we don't know what the pan law is. That's the whole problem; "half-left" means he turned the knob halfway to the left, and that's all it tells you.
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Old 03-19-2017, 09:33 PM   #14
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I mean the knob is turned halfway, and we don't know what the pan law is. That's the whole problem; "half-left" means he turned the knob halfway to the left, and that's all it tells you.
I read you now. When I started thread, I was hoping someone would answer, "oh in the 50's, 'half-left' gave you x dB on the left and y dB on the right. That's what it meant in the 50's." Because there is a lot of historical knowledge on these forums in general, and in the 50's they had fewer ways of doing things; but in this case the secret may remain obscure.

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Old 03-19-2017, 09:42 PM   #15
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Quote:
I'm reading someone's description of recording techniques he used in the 1950's, and he says he panned one mono signal "half left". I want to emulate what he did, but he doesn't specify the pan-law in his system, so the term "half left" is ambiguous to me.
He probably did it by ear, or he turned the knob half-way. It was all analog and I'm sure it wasn't calibrated... Center probably was calibrated to center (but not to within 0.05db) and fully-left & fully-right were probably nearly 100%.

REAPER's 50% is probably reasonably-close... It should place the sound somewhere between center and far-left.

And, the apparent position will depend on the speakers, the room, listening position, and the listener. There's no point in being overly-precise.

I've read about early stereo mixers/consoles that had a left-right-center switch.
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Old 03-19-2017, 09:47 PM   #16
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I read you now. When I started thread, I was hoping someone would answer, "oh in the 50's, 'half-left' gave you x dB on the left and y dB on the right. That's what it meant in the 50's." Because there is a lot of historical knowledge on these forums in general, and the 50's they had fewer ways of doing things; but in this case the secret may remain obscure.
Not too many people alive who were mixing in the 50's!!!! Rotflmao....

Just pan the freaking pot 50% left and see what happens. Sounds good to you, it's right. Sounds bad, it's wrong. Now, if you can't tell, you have no business sitting in front of a console.
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Old 03-19-2017, 10:16 PM   #17
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And, the apparent position will depend on the speakers, the room, listening position, and the listener. There's no point in being overly-precise.
Thanks for you opinion that I'm being pointlessly precise. Really, though, the 1's and 0's emitted by my VST's don't depend on anyone's speakers, anyone's room, anyone's listening position, or anyone's ears. I sell 0's and 1's, not personal listening-experiences. If you want to become a developer, maybe your sloppy VST's will beat my precise VST's in the market. (That's the only way you'll persuade me to become sloppy.)

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REAPER's 50% is probably reasonably-close... It should place the sound somewhere between center and far-left.
I'm happy for you that that is good enough precision for you; but we're two different people doing two different things, and I'd prefer more documentation, like people are getting from Cubase, Audition, and Sonar:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/resou...vealed/m710671

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I've read about early stereo mixers/consoles that had a left-right-center switch.
A switch which gave specific results.

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Old 03-19-2017, 10:37 PM   #18
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Not too many people alive who were mixing in the 50's!!!! Rotflmao....
Said Decca engineer is alive and kicking, and I've emailed him, so the Rotflmao is on you.

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Just pan the freaking pot 50% left and see what happens. Sounds good to you, it's right. Sounds bad, it's wrong. Now, if you can't tell, you have no business sitting in front of a console.
Just fiddle with your knobs, trust your ears, and do no math. If you don't like how precise my VST's are, persuade the market to stop buying precise VST's; until then, your online-rants can't be taken seriously.

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Old 03-20-2017, 02:18 AM   #19
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Now I know why "Abbey Road", "Dark Side Of The Moon" and "The Man Who Sold The World" sound do disgustingly bad. Its because the developers of these analog thingies were so awfully sloppy... Sad.
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Old 03-20-2017, 02:33 AM   #20
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your meters are just a bit off, the L/R diff figures are actually all the same.
Thanks very much. I'll try again with my own meters.

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you would think someone so obsessed with being "precise" would have decent meters...:P
I have learned my lesson about trusting Melda Production's meter. I'm humbled.

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i get 7.732938491405325 dBFS difference for all 3 scenarios.
(using -6.02 dBFS (0.5v) sine wave source)
Thanks. In that case, though, it's still unclear how Reaper arrives at that from "50%".
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Old 03-20-2017, 02:34 AM   #21
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Is this in reference to John Pellowe's description of panning a Decca Tree with outriggers?
Yes.......
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Old 03-20-2017, 02:35 AM   #22
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Now I know why "Abbey Road", "Dark Side Of The Moon" and "The Man Who Sold The World" sound do disgustingly bad. Its because the developers of these analog thingies were so awfully sloppy... Sad.
And I'm sure the men who engineered the equipment for those albums spent their days drunkenly babbling into the internet like you, rather than working on math. Have a good day fiddling with knobs and reassuring yourself, "If it sounds good, it is good."
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Old 03-20-2017, 02:43 AM   #23
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"I never finished 8th-grade math, but I got this lectric guitar, 6-pack of Pabst Blue Ribbon, and a DAW, so I'm going to get on this here internet and advise everyone to shut up about math and just twiddle knobs till it sounds good, and if they can't handle my wisdom, they have no place using a DAW. I know it all about music production, and I'm not afraid to tell the internet, when I'm drinking my Pabst."
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Old 03-20-2017, 02:49 AM   #24
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"Wait, what---no one actually asked me how to produce music, but I'm going to preach about it anyway because real-life didn't work out so well for me, so now I preach to people on the internet that they are working too hard and they shouldn't sweat the math and they should just fiddle the knobs like I do!"
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Old 03-20-2017, 02:54 AM   #25
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Pan law doesn't matter unless the absolute gain is set before pan is dynamically altered and not corrected.

If pan is fixed and the fader position is adjusted afterwards, then there is no difference what the pan law is.

For what it's worth, Neve, SSL, Focusrite consoles all used -4.5dB compensation.
Thanks. Your description makes sense in every way, and it's what I gathered from Googling, except my test results above showed variation in the L/R ratio when I varied Reaper's pan-law setting. Something went wrong, Melda's meter, my test-execution, or something else.
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Old 03-20-2017, 03:42 AM   #26
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Said Decca engineer is alive and kicking, and I've emailed him, so the Rotflmao is on you.


Just fiddle with your knobs, trust your ears, and do no math. If you don't like how precise my VST's are, persuade the market to stop buying precise VST's; until then, your online-rants can't be taken seriously.
Not a rant - just some un-welcomed advice for someone who obviously needs it but does not want it. Keep doing math - that's what music is about....and using Melda plugins, of course!....lol...bye!
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Old 03-20-2017, 03:47 AM   #27
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Not a rant - just some un-welcomed advice for someone who obviously needs it but does not want it. Keep doing math - that's what music is about....
I'll return my Electronic Musician Editors' Choice Award because you told me I'm doing too much math. Thanks for the sermon on "what music is about", random preacher on a DAW-forum. I'm going to throw out these math books and get a console and sit in front of it and spank my munkee and tell myslef "now I'm like Irvin and I'm so awesome".

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Old 03-20-2017, 04:31 AM   #28
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Melda stuff sucks,
Pussyfart.

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Old 03-20-2017, 06:37 AM   #29
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I'll return my Electronic Musician Editors' Choice Award because you told me I'm doing too much math. Thanks for the sermon on "what music is about", random preacher on a DAW-forum. I'm going to throw out these math books and get a console and sit in front of it and spank my munkee and tell myslef "now I'm like Irvin and I'm so awesome".
Maybe you are a developer and everyone is replying as if you are a mixer? Same ^rules cannot apply to both.
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Old 03-20-2017, 07:19 AM   #30
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I'll return my Electronic Musician Editors' Choice Award because you told me I'm doing too much math. Thanks for the sermon on "what music is about", random preacher on a DAW-forum. I'm going to throw out these math books and get a console and sit in front of it and spank my munkee and tell myslef "now I'm like Irvin and I'm so awesome".
Hey, Donald, that is too long for a tweet.
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Old 03-20-2017, 07:27 AM   #31
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FWIW, here is some (rather precise) info on REAPER's pan law implementation:

http://www.askjf.com/?q=2342s
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Old 03-20-2017, 07:52 AM   #32
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Well, that was fun.

I've no idea what Decca were building at the time, but based on a bit of reading, so-called "slugged linear pots" would be my guess.

There's an interesting gearslutz thread here:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/geek...teristics.html

also, some relevant educational material here:
http://sound.whsites.net/pots.htm
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Old 03-20-2017, 07:59 AM   #33
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FWIW, here is some (rather precise) info on REAPER's pan law implementation:

http://www.askjf.com/?q=2342s
It may maybe precise, but it can't be right, cos if "law in this case would be 1.0" there's a zero divide.
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Old 03-20-2017, 07:59 AM   #34
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"Wait, what---no one actually asked me how to produce music, but I'm going to preach about it anyway because real-life didn't work out so well for me, so now I preach to people on the internet that they are working too hard and they shouldn't sweat the math and they should just fiddle the knobs like I do!"
Here's some free advice: employ someone to do your customer service and PR for you, because at some point your personality is going to become the limiting factor in the success of your DSP business. This is not an insult, as I don't think coders should have to be polite, but the face of a business absolutely needs to be polite, and patient.

Here's the thing about your comments on maths and accuracy though; how do you expect to accurately model an analogue setup without actually having access to it for testing? Are old interviews and random forum chats going to cut it in terms of an accurate model?

Anyway, good luck in your endeavours.
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:17 AM   #35
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Maybe you are a developer and everyone is replying as if you are a mixer? Same ^rules cannot apply to both.
When I want mixing advice, I turn to people who mix well, not to the random people throwing unsolicited mixing advice onto this forum and barking about who "belongs in front of a console" and who doesn't. Whose advice are you going to value:

A) Mixes well enough to make audio that impresses you, or audio that sells well; has people beating down his door asking for mixing tips; discloses how he mixes his music, but doesn't tell you how to mix your own music.

B) Makes bad music while injecting unsolicited mixing-advice onto the internet wherever he can, though no one ever asked him. Failed to make a name for himself in music, so tries instead to fake it on DAW forums.

There are A's all over the place, being interviewed in magazines and posting on forums when we're lucky.
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:28 AM   #36
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When I want mixing advice, I turn to people who mix well, not to the random people throwing unsolicited mixing advice onto this forum and barking about who "belongs in front of a console" and who doesn't. Whose advice are you going to value:

A) Mixes well enough to make audio that impresses you, or audio that sells well; has people beating down his door asking for mixing tips; discloses how he mixes his music, but doesn't tell you how to mix your own music.

B) Makes bad music while injecting unsolicited mixing-advice onto the internet wherever he can, though no one ever asked him. Failed to make a name for himself in music, so tries instead to fake it on DAW forums.

There are A's all over the place, being interviewed in magazines and posting on forums when we're lucky.
I have no idea what ^this means, but my point still stands, if you are *developer* asking about Reaper's pan law formula, you are getting replies as a person mixing, not as a developer - that being said, you might want to clear that point up.

If you have a clear question as a developer or a mixer, designate which it is and why accordingly, so that you get proper answers, instead of all the failed attempts at degrading people who are trying to help. All these thin skins insulting each other will accomplish exactly nothing.
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:37 AM   #37
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Here's some free advice: employ someone to do your customer service and PR for you, because at some point your personality is going to become the limiting factor in the success of your DSP business. This is not an insult, as I don't think coders should have to be polite, but the face of a business absolutely needs to be polite, and patient.
I'm flushing your unsolicited advice down the toilet as fast as I can, but my toilet can barely keep up, because you're so efficient at giving unsolicited, bad advice on the internet. I'll keep running my business the way I like, and if all goes well, you'll start a protest on Facebook or Twitter about it. I don't need you as a customer, and I don't want you as a customer. I want customers who don't clog my customer-service line with their personality disorders and self-esteem issues. I want customers who use my products well, make good music, and post it on YouTube or Spotify; I don't want you making bad music with it and posting it on YouTube, I don't want my product to be associated with that. So, I won't be changing my business to suit you.
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:41 AM   #38
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I have no idea what ^this means, but my point still stands, if you are *developer* asking about Reaper's pan law formula, you are getting replies as a person mixing, not as a developer - that being said, you might want to clear that point up.

If you have a clear question as a developer or a mixer, designate which it is and why accordingly, so that you get proper answers, instead of all the failed attempts at degrading people who are trying to help. All these thin skins insulting each other will accomplish exactly nothing.
I am a developer and mixer, and I'm not going to make an announcement at the top of each post explaining which hat I'm wearing, because I always wear them both. Sorry.

I'm not insulting anyone who's trying to help. I appreciate that most people in this thread are trying to help, and I'm dealing with a couple of clowns trying to lift themselves out of the gutter by barking about who "belongs in front of console".
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:47 AM   #39
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I am a developer and mixer, and I'm not going to make an announcement at the top of each post explaining which hat I'm wearing, because I always wear them both. Sorry.
Don't be sorry, announcing who you are and why is just good communication and helps avoid threads going the route this one has. There are some who replied who are very successful mixers in the industry and had your questions been purely as a mixer and not a developer, the advice would have been spot on, regardless of how well it was delivered. So, understanding which hat you are wearing when you ask and why, is paramount - hope that makes sense.
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Last edited by karbomusic; 03-20-2017 at 11:15 AM.
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:50 AM   #40
Judders
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 11,044
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TryingToMakeMusic View Post
I'm flushing your unsolicited advice down the toilet as fast as I can, but my toilet can barely keep up, because you're so efficient at giving unsolicited, bad advice on the internet. I'll keep running my business the way I like, and if all goes well, you'll start a protest on Facebook or Twitter about it. I don't need you as a customer, and I don't want you as a customer. I want customers who don't clog my customer-service line with their personality disorders and self-esteem issues. I want customers who use my products well, make good music, and post it on YouTube or Spotify; I don't want you making bad music with it and posting it on YouTube, I don't want my product to be associated with that. So, I won't be changing my business to suit you.
Classic, thanks for that
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