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Old 09-23-2014, 06:22 PM   #1
Jacos
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Default Multiple uses of same VSTi instrument/channel

Tod, thanks for taking this up in the single-instance Aria thread.

I am at last successful with the 16 audio/16 MIDI tracking for a single instance of Aria. I have 8 string "voices" in the composition, plus a nine-part choir (not much going on in it, but I couldn't get it down form 9 because of occasional overlaps on long-held notes)

I only have 1 vocal "instrument" avail in Aria GPO, called "Choir Lite".

What's the best way to use that in 9 separate tracks? As I said in the other thread, it is working for me as single-instances of a single-chnnel Aria Player, in addition to the Aria Multi...but not the most efficient way?

Thanks again!

Jacos

Last edited by Jacos; 09-23-2014 at 06:43 PM.
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Old 09-23-2014, 07:38 PM   #2
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Tod, thanks for taking this up in the single-instance Aria thread.

I am at last successful with the 16 audio/16 MIDI tracking for a single instance of Aria. I have 8 string "voices" in the composition, plus a nine-part choir (not much going on in it, but I couldn't get it down form 9 because of occasional overlaps on long-held notes)

I only have 1 vocal "instrument" avail in Aria GPO, called "Choir Lite".

What's the best way to use that in 9 separate tracks? As I said in the other thread, it is working for me as single-instances of a single-chnnel Aria Player, in addition to the Aria Multi...but not the most efficient way?
Hi Jacos, the obvious would be to put the whole Choir arrangement all into one midi track going to one Aria instrument, in this case the "Choir Lite". That's assuming that the parts/notes are all different. This makes for easier writing and arranging since it's all right there in front of you.

However, in the real world of midi programming that's not so practical, nor does it offer the maximum control, especially if you want your parts to be legato which of course will probably also require separate CC programming.

You're talking 9 tracks to assumingly cover from Bass to soprano. That seems like more tracks than necessary although not necessarily so, if your arrangement is fairly complicated and you want maximum control.

So assuming you've got your arranging skills under hand, it's really a matter of just adding a "Choir Lite" to as many instrument slots as you have midi choir tracks. In other words if you've got 9 Choir midi tracks, then just load 9 slots in the Aria player with "Choir Lite".

Something else you might consider, if you're going to have that many Choir parts you might simply devote one entire instance of the Aria player to the Choir. Although the idea is to fill one Aria player before loading another one which is definitely the best approach, that doesn't mean there aren't times and reasons to deviate slightly.

Does that make any sense?
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Old 09-24-2014, 12:38 AM   #3
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if you're going to have that many Choir parts you might simply devote one entire instance of the Aria player to the Choir. Although the idea is to fill one Aria player before loading another one which is definitely the best approach, that doesn't mean there aren't times and reasons to deviate slightly.

Does that make any sense?
Hi Tod, thanks so much for the swift response! Yes, that makes lots of sense. It would be beautifully tidy to give all those choristers a room to themselves

Yeah, it's an unusual "choir", especially as its only for about 30 seconds. The part (or nine parts) is just a short series of unaccented, legato notes, fading-in-and-out with some very long sustained notes. I initially played the first several voices in one "item", but as I tinkered with the lines I found I couldn't control the individual volumes, swells and fades needed.

I don't yet know anything about putting several parts in one item, although I've crudely edited piano parts which are of course polyphonic.

I'm really, really glad I can use the same instrument on several Aria channels. I will try it again again asap, as my novice routing and reaper use could be the reason it didn't work last time, but I was then influenced by reading on a GPO forum, and hearing on a GPO tutorial video, that you can't use the same players to build a string ensemble, because of same-samples used for some players, leading to phasing. Can you enlighten me on that, eg is that a different situation? Perhaps because those players would often be playing in unison?
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Old 09-24-2014, 01:13 AM   #4
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I've now put a 2nd 16-channel Aria Multi Player on its own track in Reaper, with 9 Audio/MIDI track pairs, and the 2 Aria players both play fine - in one Multi, 9 channels each with Choir Lite; in the other multi, 8 channels of various stringed instruments. That's really fantastic, thanks Tod!
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Old 09-24-2014, 11:41 AM   #5
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I'm really, really glad I can use the same instrument on several Aria channels. I will try it again again asap, as my novice routing and reaper use could be the reason it didn't work last time, but I was then influenced by reading on a GPO forum, and hearing on a GPO tutorial video, that you can't use the same players to build a string ensemble, because of same-samples used for some players, leading to phasing. Can you enlighten me on that, eg is that a different situation? Perhaps because those players would often be playing in unison?
There are basically two types of phasing to be concerned with. The phasing of two or more sounds/voices played together at the same pitch and the phasing created by a single voice that is doubled in some manner.

The phasing of two or more sounds together is usually pleasing, and in fact that is one the main reasons for using more that one instrument. Like a Choir or String Section or a Synthesizer with more than one oscillator.

However, the phasing created by a single voice that is doubled in some manner can create all kinds of problems. Depending on how the voices are separated and then put back together again, they may have a doubling affect and/or tend to cancel each other out. That's why it's always good to solo multiple voices whether its a Choir, Instrument, or other type of voice such as a Synthesizer, just to see what they sound like when they are combined.

For this reason you want to be careful when using samples, because many, if not most libraries come with one voice per note. Actually there are many libraries that will stretch a single sample over more than one note and sometimes several notes.

As long as you don't double up on notes when using the same instrument, you should be okay. You should also be okay with the notes that are the same, if they don't fall on the grid in the same position. Well except for one thing, many libraries loop their samples so you really don't know how the same notes are falling in place/time together.

One of the ways to work with an instrument, such as your Choir Lite, that contains all the parts (bass to soprano), is to first arrange all the notes in one midi track, and then when you get the notes the way you want them, separate the different parts into separate tracks and assign the tracks to their respective midi channels. Then you can add the CCs the way you want for each of them.

A little tip I might pass on to you, in case you don't already know, when putting single note legato parts together, slightly overlap the notes. That way you can get a continuity you can't get if they are not overlapped. This is common knowledge so you may already know that.
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Old 09-24-2014, 12:59 PM   #6
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Thank you Tod. I will check what each voice sounds like solo as I continue to automate each (MIDI by CC and audio by automation lane.

Since the purpose of the many parts was to allow the same note to be held while the identical note starts - panned differently - there are overlaps in of the same note in different tracks. If I eq them sligthly differently will that make it a "different note" for phasing purposes?

About the overlap/legato, yes, thanks, I discovered that a few months ago when first playing with MIDI violin in Cubase Elements/Halion SE. Initially I removed each overlap, as a violin couldn't play both notes, then realised the overlap was the only way to get legato.

In GPO there is also an "autolegato" feature which automatically adjusts overlaps to produce legato, and works pretty well much of the time on strings.

My mission at present is to produce a suitable pre-mix volume for each part. The Audio track automation is predictable, but I have to use almost max volume (+6Db) for extended periods, and that seems wrong, so I'm trying to get a better level in the MIDI. I'm mystified by really low volume at times, which shoots up sometimes apparently without change in CC or automation. I suspect that sometimes, esp. on repeating playing back a short loop, the volume is not accurately played back. Is this standard behaviour for MIDI/samples? Or perhaps it is phasing? I will have to check if it's where the same notes occur in different parts.

Apparently, (GPO manual and forums), in GPO particularly, velocity equates to attack rather than volume. Also, a mod wheel adjustment is required at the beginning of each voice, to get any sound to start. So I have to tweak the mod wheel in Aria (doesn't seem to work properly on my old Roland RD500), then keep the mod wheel low to avoid attack inappropriate to the piece, then find another way to lift volume - which so far has been via an Expression CC lane in Reaper.

Are there explanations of all the CCs anywhere? eg I got what seemed to be a result from a CC called something like "Volume 14 -bit", but didn't know if I should be using it.

I also have yet to work through the online Garriton Orchestration lessons.

No need to reply to any of this unless something leaps out at you, but it sure is good to hear your advice if you have any.
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Old 09-24-2014, 01:41 PM   #7
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Apparently, (GPO manual and forums), in GPO particularly, velocity equates to attack rather than volume. Also, a mod wheel adjustment is required at the beginning of each voice, to get any sound to start. So I have to tweak the mod wheel in Aria (doesn't seem to work properly on my old Roland RD500), then keep the mod wheel low to avoid attack inappropriate to the piece, then find another way to lift volume - which so far has been via an Expression CC lane in Reaper.

Are there explanations of all the CCs anywhere? eg I got what seemed to be a result from a CC called something like "Volume 14 -bit", but didn't know if I should be using it.
That's GPO's way of doing things.

As for the CC# numbers and what they do, there is a standard, but many software developers use them as they wish. For GPO, buckle up and look at "Basic Controls" in the User Guide (p47 onwards and 72-74 here). It looks pretty powerful (i.e will take a bit of reading )
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Old 09-24-2014, 07:38 PM   #8
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Thanks DarkStar. I have read those lists of CCs in the GPO manual, and was not at all sure they were accessible and relevant in Reaper. It's starting to make sense now. Very exciting.

I've also been having another go through the manual for my MIDI controller, an old (1980's?) Roland RD500, which I love the sound and action of, but has always had me stumped for anything other than volume and sound.

Today I set attack, release, decay, and even assigned a slider to Expression! It had some positive impact on the Roland's (awful) strings sound, in live audio anyway. Would it be worthwhile for me to try recording Expression to the Aria strings with it, do you think? And if so, could I record the Expression moves ("gestures?") as an overdub (?) directly into the same track/item as the original recorded MIDI?
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Old 09-24-2014, 07:58 PM   #9
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DarkStar, I just looked at, and have started reading, your Top 40 FR thread. It is actually helpful reading for a newb, eg to know there's no point in trying again and again to find the right way to draw a 0 value CC.

Before I continue reading that thread, are all the FRs in the list still unimplemented?
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Old 09-25-2014, 01:11 AM   #10
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> the phasing created by a single voice that is doubled in some manner can create all kinds of problems

> You should also be okay with the notes that are the same, if they don't fall on the grid in the same position. Well except for one thing, many libraries loop their samples so you really don't know how the same notes are falling in place/time together.
If that happens, is that when one uses the Reverse Phasing option, or whatever its called? Or would it help to move the samples just a fraction left or right?
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Old 09-25-2014, 01:22 AM   #11
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Thanks DarkStar. I have read those lists of CCs in the GPO manual, and was not at all sure they were accessible and relevant in Reaper. It's starting to make sense now. Very exciting.
"Once you get it, you'll really get it."
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I've also been having another go through the manual for my MIDI controller, an old (1980's?) Roland RD500, which I love the sound and action of, but has always had me stumped for anything other than volume and sound.

Today I set attack, release, decay, and even assigned a slider to Expression! It had some positive impact on the Roland's (awful) strings sound, in live audio anyway.
Good oh!
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Would it be worthwhile for me to try recording Expression to the Aria strings with it, do you think? And if so, could I record the Expression moves ("gestures?") as an overdub (?) directly into the same track/item as the original recorded MIDI?
Yes. When Recording for GPO, think of MIDI CC messages just the same as MIDI notes - but overdubbing MIDI CCs can lead to some hiccoughs:

... Big pic: https://i.imgur.com/jfGuOvp.png

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DarkStar, I just looked at, and have started reading, your Top 40 FR thread. It is actually helpful reading for a newb, eg to know there's no point in trying again and again to find the right way to draw a 0 value CC.
Draw it in the Piano roll, select it and drag it all the way down?
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Before I continue reading that thread, are all the FRs in the list still unimplemented?
As far as I know, yes. Updating the Status is for the Mods, not me.
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Old 09-25-2014, 12:40 PM   #12
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Draw it in the Piano roll, select it and drag it all the way down?
In correcting my first attempted CC drawings, I've been having trouble drawing straight on the zero line for some CCs at least, eg pitch, but perhaps I need to be patient enough to zoom more.
There, you see, I do not know enough to vote on FRs yet. But I will read them.

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As far as I know, yes. Updating the Status is for the Mods, not me.
Ah, thanks.

And thanks once again for all your answers DarkStar.
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