MIDI editor TABS

[Subz]

i like this FR

but i would like a way to edit (well remove notes) from all selected tabs

Subz

[EvilDragon]

Hm, I'm not sure if that's feasible. There would be a lot of conditions needed for that. Which notes, of which duration, on which channel, which tab?

[Subz]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Hm, I'm not sure if that's feasible. There would be a lot of conditions needed for that. Which notes, of which duration, on which channel, which tab?

i used to use Cakewalk 6 when i started to learn, i only plyed with sonar a few times but i recall multi editor tabs in one of them

they had buttons to show hide & lock different midi tracks tabs,

so you could see all the midi but only edit the unlocked ones or you could hide the midi from a tab (that would auto lock that midi also)

& i recall the midi editor would just play through clips on the open tracks on the midi editor

this i have seen in no other host (i'm sure others might have it but i don't know about them)

is there a FR for the midi editor to auto select the clips in the track as play head plays through them in the sequencer (or to show all midi items in that track) even better is there i hidden option in Reaper already?

Subz

PS sorry to spam your thread!!

[nofish]

Subz,

not sure if this is what you're looking for, but atm we already have a way to open multiple Midi items in one Midi editor and switch between them for editing.

Select items -> rightclick -> open items in editor -> open all Midi items on selected tracks in one editor

Or check Midi editor Options: Reuse Midi editor for other items, keeping items secondary.

now you can change between the active clips either by clicking the "greyed out" notes or by using the filter.

However, there's yet no way to activate/edit several clips at once.

I've made a FR for this, please vote if you find it useful:

http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=1157

(sorry for OT and the shameless plug)

[PAPT]

I like to be able to edit one part against another, so I like to be able to show more than 1 part at a time in the editor.

I would like to be able to choose which parts show. Like channel 2 and channel 16. Or 3, 7, and 12.

I'd like different colors for each midi part/channel.
All chosen parts show in there own color, but with low color saturation so that only the active/editable one is full color.

This way you can easily tell which part is which and which is the currently editable one.

Are the little boxes that can be checked with an x in the 10-13-2009 07:19 AM post on the piano tab used to tell which parts will be shown as underlays?

[EvilDragon]

PAPT - you are able to do that in Reaper already as we speak (using multiple parts in one editor, keeping previous parts visible but transparent - you can do it).

This is only a method of showing MULTIPLE different MIDI items in ONE window, via tabs. So, each tab has their own 16 MIDI channels to show! And each tab would be able to do what you want - show multiple MIDI channels at the same time as transparent versions, and in different color (if you set the view to Channel).

The X is for closing the tab, obviously. It's NOT a tickbox.

[sly]

Originally Posted by DanXIV

I LOVE tabs :-)

Ctrl + click to select/de-select multiple tabs so that when you just click on a tab it becomes the active one.

Shift + click to select multiple active tabs.

DanXIV

+1

It is paramount to me that there is the ability to edit multiple active tabs at the same time.

[Subz]

Originally Posted by sly

+1

It is paramount to me that there is the ability to edit multiple active tabs at the same time.

+1 more

the current multi edit is not so bad as is bar the fact you can only edit one track at a time,

i see no point in the tabs unless they offer a way to lock & hide content (& of course for all unlocked to be edited at the same time (like in Cakewalk Pro Audio 9 from last millennium )

either way, the Tabs get my vote as its a step in the right direction

Subz

[krahosk]

+1, again - keep this request alive!

[eepyikes]

I like the tabs idea, good one. But First there are a few more basic, essential midi details to be addressed: midi export of track names, and midi export of full tempo mapping (including linear changes/accelerando/decelerando per midi spec). New features are cute and all but why even bother when basic functionality is not there?

[MatticusFinch]

I'd say first make it easy to compose, then worry about exporting your composition second. But that's just my opinion.

[eepyikes]

What makes more sense is to completely support the standard, and then add neat stuff. Not that they couldn't both be done in one update, based on the amazing progress of the developers so far...

[eepyikes]

Further to that point, there is a lot of glossing over some basic functionality that happens because voting on popular features takes precedence over supporting industry standards. As such I would think that there is some re-inventing of the wheel on one hand and simply ignoring mundane but standard and necessary features on the other.

[EvilDragon]

Please don't interject one feature request with several that are unrelated to the FR topic...

[EvilDragon]

I'm talking about MIDI editor tabs as an optional feature. If it's too complicated for you, you don't use it I, for one, think it would make my life a heck of a lot easier!

[Subz]

Originally Posted by krahosk

Come to think of it, it sounds awfully complicated; since I can have many MIDI takes within on given track,

sorry to stop you there but AFAIKT this FR is for a tab per track, not per clip

but i may be wrong (Mr Dragon?)

Subz

[micha]

+1 for midi-tabs with ghosts and trackcolormarking

each MIDI take (called patterns) has its own track "container", that way it's easy to tabulate between track instruments.
Reaper doesn't function that way. There's no equivalent to a FL Studio pattern with Reaper.

hm... you can switch between source and projectbeats in the midieditor. maybe there could be a switch, so that you can see all midisourcebeats layered, no matter where the items positioned, if wanted. trackwise editing, independent from items, just everything on track viewable/ghostable, while the behavior of the items/itemloops remain, would be nice as well.

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by Subz

sorry to stop you there but AFAIKT this FR is for a tab per track, not per clip

but i may be wrong (Mr Dragon?)

Subz

Nope, per clip, that's the beauty of it in my eyes!

[krahosk]

clip = MIDI take ? Restricting myself in putting one MIDI take per track and I would be happy with this Tab feature.
I still need some clarifications : the tabs appear automatically in the MIDI editor each time you insert a MIDI item? Or do you need to manually select the MIDI takes and open them in a same MIDI editor window?

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by krahosk

clip = MIDI take ?

Yes.

Originally Posted by krahosk

Or do you need to manually select the MIDI takes and open them in a same MIDI editor window?

This.

[EvilDragon]

Not really, because what you propose is taking precious MIDI toolbar area, which a lot of users have almost full now!

MIDI tabs are the way to go. Devs have its appreciation since they raised it as an elevated FR. It will become a reality in due time, and IMHO alternate solutions are all inferior.


On the other hand, ghost note switching behavior should be STRICTLY done with a modifier. For example, normal click on a ghost note DOES NOTHING, just draws a new note. But, Ctrl+clicking a ghost note switches to that other item.

[krahosk]

Real tabs it would be then, if the devs have us requesters in their favour -- all the better IMO. Was just suggesting this thing because I need it fast.

Ghost note switching with a modifier, all for it.

And that MIDI color thing I suggested, would it be useful for more than me?

[zoid9]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Not really, because what you propose is taking precious MIDI toolbar area, which a lot of users have almost full now!

MIDI tabs are the way to go. Devs have its appreciation since they raised it as an elevated FR. It will become a reality in due time, and IMHO alternate solutions are all inferior.


On the other hand, ghost note switching behavior should be STRICTLY done with a modifier. For example, normal click on a ghost note DOES NOTHING, just draws a new note. But, Ctrl+clicking a ghost note switches to that other item.

I find I have to start drawing a lane below or above if there is a ghosted note `cuz it switches over. Not really a big deal, though Ctrl+click would be cool.

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by krahosk

And that MIDI color thing I suggested, would it be useful for more than me?

Well, if you notice my image mockups, you would see that each tab to the left of its name gas a color box, which would be inherited from:

1. either item color
2. or channel color

[krahosk]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Well, if you notice my image mockups, you would see that each tab to the left of its name gas a color box, which would be inherited from:

1. either item color
2. or channel color

Well it wasn't clear to me. As far as Reaper goes up to now, the colors in the filter window are predetermined, and have nothing to do with channel nor item color. I thought it the same for your mockup. Thus my request, which is different: MIDI notes get the track color definition - not the item's, not the channel's. The advantage is obvious for arranging multiple MIDI items: you know what instrument plays what notes.

So here's the idea:

1. MIDI note color inherits the track color. And if it conflicts with someone who uses MIDI channel colors, then there would be the handy option as shown below:

[IMG]http://img63.**************/img63/9629/trackcolor.jpg[/IMG]

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by krahosk

I know I could simulate what I'm asking for here by changing each of my track's instruments to different MIDI channels, but that's tedious and unpractical, plus, I would be limited to 16.

Actually, this could be easy to do, just with a little nudge on the devs.

You have Color: Velocity, Channel, Pitch, Source. Why wouldn't we have Item, as well?

[mikeroephonics]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Update: coloring of the tabs using item color to make tabs easier to distinguish!

YES!!

+1 for krahosks' idea for 'MIDI Color: Track' option in the MIDI Editor!

[krahosk]

Originally Posted by mikeroephonics

YES!!

+1 for krahosks' idea for 'MIDI Color: Track' option in the MIDI Editor!

You can vote for it here:
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=2338
Discussion below:
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=56149

[krahosk]

So, with 109 votes, what's the status with the MIDI tab editor?
I REALLY need this feature in Reaper!

MIDI tabs would be a revolution in Reaper.

[EvilDragon]

Honestly, krahosk, I expect this in Reaper 4, not before.

Much as all the other elevated FRs, I firmly believe a lot of those will be done for R4.

[TonE]

I did not read everything above, but if Reaper would get such Midi Editor Tabs, then I would like Opera-like hotkey control for those tabs which means:

1. Using the keys 1 and 2 on the QWERTY section to switch among tabs, for left hand use, e.g. when your right hand is at the mouse.
2. Using the Numpad keys 1 and 2 also to switch among tabs, for right hand use when your left hand is doing anything else.

[EvilDragon]

Eh, I already have the numbers busy with switching MIDI channels.

I vote for mousewheeling the tabs.

[jnif]

The "one MIDI item per tab" concept may not be feasible in the long run.
For example multi item/track MIDI editing has been requested in several posts and when it will be implemented, then it should work inside one tab.

It is stated in the FR that MIDI editor tabs are used for easy switching between multiple opened midi items. Yes, you can use tabs for switching between items but I think that is somewhat special use case for tabs. When you open multiple items to a single tab you probably would like to select the active item for editing (=switch item) without changing to another tab.

I think MIDI editor tabs are useful for organizing and easy accessing of multiple MIDI editor windows. And the power of using multiple tabs or editor windows is that you can have independent time line position, zoom level, CC lanes, snap/grid settings, etc. for each tab.
Maybe it would be nice to be able to optionally sync/link those independent settings between tabs, but that would be already kind of stretching the tab concept beyond its useful area. Sync/linking of tab states/settings would be needed if you edit multiple overlapping or consecutive items using one tab per item. However, I think it would be more user friendly to do this kind of multi item editing inside a single tab. And maybe it is even easier to implement proper multi item/track editing inside one tab than trying to sync/link multiple tabs.

Also, it has been suggested that visibility of ghosted items could be changed by clicking tabs. That is a nice idea. Still, we need other ways to control ghosted items for single tab use cases. The "color boxes" in Filter Events window already does the same thing (activate and hide items). It will be more flexible to add new item control functions to the in Filter events window than to tabs. For example it would be nice to have mute, solo, activate all, hide others, move to, zoom to, etc. features. And the graphical presentation of item controls is more flexible in the Filter Events window compared to tabs. For example developers could implement different view modes for item control boxes:
1. all items (current "color boxes" view)
2. tracks (shortcut view to control all items on the same track)
3. tracks/items folder view (combination of 1 and 2 where items are show under each track)
Besides, I would like to be able to dock the Filter Events window to the right side of the Midi editor window, but that's another story (and FR).

So, to summarize these thoughts:
- Flexible multi item/track editing should be possible inside single tab and without opening multiple tabs.
- I think EvilDragon's FR emphasizes a little too much using tabs for easy item switching. Easy item switching/activation is also needed inside single tab without opening multiple tabs.
- Tabs should be used mainly for organizing and easy access of multiple MIDI editor windows.
- MIDI editor tabs (or separate MIDI editor windows) are useful when you need independent time line position, zoom level, CC lanes, snap/grid settings, etc. for different midi sequences in your project.
- Please, do not clutter tabs with unnecessary MIDI item visibility/playback/edit controls that can be implemented in more user friendly way using other GUI elements.

Sorry for the long post.
I hope this post does not sound too negative. I'm trying to give some constructive criticism.


jnif

[Mike Stop Continues]

I'm sorry I have to disagree with the solution. I agree this problem needs
a solution, but tabs is not an appropriate answer.

The problem:

• Navigating between MIDI items is a mess.
• Clicking on MIDI notes to switch tracks (without a modifier key--or the option
  for one) is VERY BUGGY! It interferes with drawing notes, causes accidental clicks,
  and sometimes makes it impossible to get back to the item you were working on.
• There's no way to hide (preferable) or close items that have been added to the
  MIDI editor without closing everything.

The problem with tabs as a solution:

• They don't convey enough information (as tabs in REAPER goes now).
• They're not a perfect fit for the model we're dealing with, because there are
  other options I can fathom than one on the top/the rest on the bottom. I'll get to
  that in a second.

Features whatever system is implemented should allow, if not provide from the start:

• Easy switching between MIDI items
• Easy hiding/locking of MIDI items
• Easy closing of MIDI items
• A list of MIDI items open
• Multi-select for fast changing of MIDI item states
• The functionality of the filter in the same location

Aside from the closing/listing of items, the tabs model doesn't really provide the
necessary functionality.

My projects are almost always album length, with 10-20 songs and hundreds of tracks,
mostly MIDI. Right now, I use a custom action to load every MIDI item in my project
at once, because it's just easier, since I tend to make music like a composer rather
than an engineer. I'm forced to click on MIDI items in the project to focus them in
the MIDI editor. If I didn't have two monitors, that workaround would be impossible.

What tabs would not do is help me in any way. Working with such large projects may be
a rarity, but I'm certain there are many people who use a lot of individual MIDI items
in their projects. All those splits on all those tracks.

Even with the minute text used on REAPER tabs currently, most of my MIDI items and
many of most people's would be well out of sight, leaving it easier to navigate within
the project than within the editor. And what about those of you who don't yet work on
projects that way? What happens when you get a new computer and you can suddenly build
an album from composition to master in a single project? What happens when you want to
try something new? What happens to expandability?

What I'm suggesting is a sidebar, similar in appearance to the filter window, but with
more options. The reason is this: Whether you want to be able to list your MIDI by
track or by item, you're going to find that the room provided by a tabs bar is just not
enough. I'd much rather have a clear view of the color, state (active/locked-hid), and
close buttons than the tab model. I'd much rather be able to multi-select with ease.
I'd much rather see the filter tools in the same place.

What's more, I'd much rather the devs be able to implement the system sooner, rather
than having to code a new kind of tab to provide the functionality we need. Plus, for
the reasons you've seen/heard/read, I think the sidebar model provides better
functionality and better room for expansion.

Imagine the features that can be added to such a sidebar. Some of the ideas I can
think of would be much more difficult to do or use with tabs:

• MIDI Item grouping -- turn on or off clumps of items (or tracks as the case may be)
  at the same time, based on the groups you've created in your project.
• Multi-Edit -- Select a bunch of MIDI items and then all of them become active in the
  MIDI area, colored by item/track (or not!). Quickly quantize/humanize/transpose a bunch
  of items at once.
• Drag and drop -- Drag selected MIDI notes onto the sidebar to change the item they're
  in or to create a new item. Drag MIDI items on the sidebar into other MIDI items (or
  tracks as the case may be).

Naturally, those ideas wouldn't need to be implemented now or even soon, but they could
be, more easily.

One idea that occurred to me while writing this... What if this 'sidebar' was on the
right side of the screen and looked exactly like the track control panel? You'd have
access to volume, the synths itself, FX, mute/solo, folders, groups, multi-select,
record, and in addition, you'd have the ability to hide/show, lock/unlock the notes in
the editor... Or what if it was only a sidebar?

We're all here because we think this problem needs the best solution. This is just my
thoughts about what the solution is.

[irium]

Mike Stop Continues, completely agree with you -- sidebar on the right would be much better and expandable solution. But as I can see the key proposal of this FR is an ability to QUICKLY switch between "tabs" -- by using dedicated and easy to use shortcut (Ctrl+Tab).

So I suggest customizable shortcuts for activating next\prev "tab".

[Mike Stop Continues]

Originally Posted by irium

Mike Stop Continues, completely agree with you -- sidebar on the right would be much better and expandable solution. But as I can see the key proposal of this FR is an ability to QUICKLY switch between "tabs" -- by using dedicated and easy to use shortcut (Ctrl+Tab).

So I suggest customizable shortcuts for activating next\prev "tab".

Could we keep the shortcuts and skip the tabs?

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by Mike Stop Continues

Could we keep the shortcuts and skip the tabs?

Nope.

[Amazed]

Originally Posted by Mike Stop Continues

Could we keep the shortcuts and skip the tabs?

I like the idea of a floating toolbar instead of the tabs. It's one click to target instead of tab tab tab.

also the idea of a consolidated view with buttons along the top to mutiselect the various midi parts wasn't a bad idea either. Very flexible.

[krahosk]

Originally Posted by irium

Mike Stop Continues, completely agree with you -- sidebar on the right would be much better and expandable solution. But as I can see the key proposal of this FR is an ability to QUICKLY switch between "tabs" -- by using dedicated and easy to use shortcut (Ctrl+Tab).

So I suggest customizable shortcuts for activating next\prev "tab".

There's already the action "cycle to next secondary MIDI item", an obscure name for tabbing to the next MIDI item. But it's not symmetrical, you can't tab to the previous one. So good luck if you want to switch the the immediate previous and have a dozen items selected for editing. I already made a request for that months ago. Blah.
Come to think of it, I would go with the sidebar too, it allows for more user-friendly features.

As MikeStopContinues says with so much relevance:

"Navigating between MIDI item is a mess."

Plus, I don't want to wait for a long time for more MIDI functionality in term of composing is implemented.

[devez]

tabs would at least be good start. +100