Old 09-18-2017, 06:20 PM   #1
rapidsdrummer
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Default Tom track bleed editing in Reaper

Hello...
I have been watching produce like a pro videos that the great Warren Huart puts together on youtube. There is something he does with editing tom tracks in protools that i really would like to know if it can be done in reaper. I have always religiously cut out all of the bleed from the tom tracks when editing, so i have just the tom transient hits. Warren does not believe in doing this and calls it drastic. In protools, he has some command where he simply reduces the dbs in the tom tracks - to where you can physically see the everything in the wav on the screen reduce - except for the tom transients. He never shows exactly what command he uses to do this. But he does not chop up the tom tracks like i do to cut all the bleed out...he simply reduces the dbs of all the bleed, but yet the tom transients to not reduce in dbs with the bleed. Has anyone heard of this and know if this can be done in reaper? if so, how? i've spent a lot of time searching the web for answers but have come up empty.
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Old 09-18-2017, 09:01 PM   #2
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Maybe link a video where he does this. A transient shaper could do this pretty easily. I like Transpire: http://sonic.supermaailma.net/plugins
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Old 09-19-2017, 10:25 AM   #3
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Here is a link to the video.. at 11:40 is where he does this

https://youtu.be/9pfA14Do7ik
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Old 09-19-2017, 11:04 AM   #4
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Wow, I'm surprised dynamic split can't do that (unless I'm missing something).

You can use ReaGate and add some dry level to get the same effect (although the wet and dry are summed, so do this before you get levels right).

I think that's worth a feature request for dynamic split to change gain on all split items, and to preview levels before committing.
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Old 09-19-2017, 11:20 AM   #5
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Good idea on dynamic split, although i like how he does it to where the track does not have to get split/cut up. I know there are other work arounds such as gating, but whatever he is doing looks so simple, quick, easy...and clean.

Here is another video where he talks about gain reduction between tom hits, but he never shows how he does it lol! At about the 49:40 mark in the video...

https://youtu.be/ud6soXTRNnM
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Old 09-19-2017, 11:35 AM   #6
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It sounds like he just automated the gain.

There is a way to make sure you don't miss any gate triggers in REAPER, using the transient detection display.

Kenny explains it a minute into this video (it's about drum replacement, but you can use the same technique for ReaGate):



The cool thing about ReaGate is that it has lookahead. The pre-open setting means you never chop off the initial transient, which is a drawback of analogue gates.
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Old 09-19-2017, 05:27 PM   #7
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Yea that's a bit annoying that he doesn't explain how he's "pulling the bleed down." I do see a gate on there, but it looks bypassed. Maybe that DAW just has a Tom Bleed plugin.
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Old 09-19-2017, 05:58 PM   #8
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I really think he just went in and used clip gain to bring all the bleed down. No magic tricks, just a bit of work.
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Old 09-19-2017, 06:04 PM   #9
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He doesn't really show how he "gains down (in) between", but says specifically that one can either volume automate or run gates and that he personally doesn't run gates anymore. So it does sound like he uses automated volume (gain).
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Old 09-19-2017, 06:12 PM   #10
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I know I'll probably get flack for this, but Warren Huart couldn't mix a bowl of oatmeal. His tutorials are unclear, as well as littered with errors and half-truths about how his tools work and what they're doing. The "trick" he describes sounds like expansion, achieved through gain automation. In my opinion, multiband expansion is the easier and better sounding option. You can do multiband expansion with a tool like Tominator, Gatey Watey, and I think the older version of Ozone do this as well.

Another way you can mitigate the bleed is to copy your toms to two channels, one hi-passed at 900Hz, and one low-passed at 900Hz. The hi-passed track just has a gate or expander before the filter. If the gate has filter options on its sidechain, low-pass at 900Hz. This way the gate is only triggered when the tom is hit and not when the cymbals are hit.

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Old 09-19-2017, 06:21 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRBWaffles View Post
Warren Huart couldn't mix a bowl of oatmeal
LOL, yea he does sound full of shit to me too pretty often and I find him a bit annoying in general, but I do recall hearing some good tips as well as some very good vocals achieved through pretty unconventional means. He works pretty hard, give him a little credit.

Don't forget that our job as sound engineers half the time is to be an illusionist who can present bullshit in a convincing manner. "Hey, can you make my vocal a little...punchier?" *fake twiddle knobs* "Yea that's perfect!"

I strongly prefer the vids from Matthew Weiss. That guy explains things so clearly and doesn't mince words.
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Old 09-19-2017, 06:28 PM   #12
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LOL, yea he does sound full of shit to me too pretty often and I find him a bit annoying in general, but I do recall hearing some good tips as well as some very good vocals achieved through pretty unconventional means. He works pretty hard, give him a little credit.

Don't forget that our job as sound engineers half the time is to be an illusionist who can present bullshit in a convincing manner. "Hey, can you make my vocal a little...punchier?" *fake twiddle knobs* "Yea that's perfect!"

I strongly prefer the vids from Matthew Weiss. That guy explains things so clearly and doesn't mince words.
My favourite Warren Huart quote was from one vocal video where he said "the biggest cause of digital distortion in modern music is clipping your signal from one plugin to the next". I commented that unless the plugin, using 64-bit FP, is designed to clip to distort at unity (or any other level), his statement didn't make much sense. He emailed me a lengthy dissertation on the topic a day later, and in all twelve of the paragraphs he sent me he didn't once address what I had actually said.

But while we're on the topic of audio snake oil salesmen, I'd also stay away from David Glenn. He has some knowledge, but his actual chops are unremarkable. He's consistently outclassed by his mixing contest contestants.
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Old 09-19-2017, 06:40 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by BRBWaffles View Post
I know I'll probably get flack for this, but Warren Huart couldn't mix a bowl of oatmeal. His tutorials are unclear, as well as littered with errors and half-truths about how his tools work and what they're doing.
No flak from over here. I agree.

Well, his mixes sound okay, but he either doesn't know how he does it, or he can't articulate it. He also tends to come out with a lot of snake oil nonsense and pass it off as fact.

Every time he says "marvellously" I want to punch him.

He has had a couple of good interview guests though.

But, don't hate the player, hate the game! Not much studio work to go around these days. Warren gotta eat!
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Old 09-19-2017, 08:37 PM   #14
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Well, his mixes sound okay, but he either doesn't know how he does it, or he can't articulate it. He also tends to come out with a lot of snake oil nonsense and pass it off as fact.
I think that comes with the territory, Lord Alge does it, Scheps does it, quite a few if not most of the engineers at that level do - to me it isn't that much different than a good guitar player who has his technical limits as to what his/her gear actually does, then he tries to explain it in an interview. I don't really hold it against them, they don't explain it great sometimes, but they do well enough at the job to work with whom they do.

Of course, I didn't really think of Warren as a mixer, he's really more of an engineer and mic stuff up guy isn't he? Either way I grew up in that type world, it's easy enough to know/learn what to dismiss and what to keep - being able to do that is more important than what anyone says anyway.
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Old 09-19-2017, 08:50 PM   #15
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I think that comes with the territory, Lord Alge does it, Scheps does it, quite a few if not most of the engineers at that level do - to me it isn't that much different than a good guitar player who has his technical limits as to what his/her gear actually does, then he tries to explain it in an interview. I don't really hold it against them, they don't explain it great sometimes, but they do well enough at the job to work with whom they do.

Of course, I didn't really think of Warren as a mixer, he's really more of an engineer and mic stuff up guy isn't he? Either way I grew up in that type world, it's easy enough to know/learn what to dismiss and what to keep - being able to do that is more important than what anyone says anyway.
Yeah, I believe he's more of a producer/engineer. But mixing is where all the YooToobs hits are at!

I certainly don't have anything against him, other than his playing up of British stereotypes, but I don't watch his videos unless he's interviewing someone interesting.
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Old 09-19-2017, 08:52 PM   #16
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But mixing is where all the YooToobs hits are at!
Ah, I've watched a good number of his vids but 95% of them (that I happened to watch) were micing et al, tracking or interviews. To be fair, it's tough for me to sit through anyone's mixing vids lol which is probably why I haven't seen his.

Hehe, reading what I quoted above again, all I can think of... "YT user mistake #1, too much mix training, not enough recording/source training".
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Old 09-19-2017, 09:03 PM   #17
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But mixing is where all the YooToobs hits are at!
Which is funny, because the actual money is in editing. There are far more audio techs doing editing than just mixing, and it's pretty good money. But, you never really see editing tutorial videos. Like, if you manage to snag an editing job with a successful regular podcast with lots of revenue, you're making triple digits per hour if you work fast. It's also far less stressful than mixing and having to deal with baked musicians all day, haha.
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Old 09-19-2017, 09:17 PM   #18
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you're making triple digits per hour if you work fast.
How do I get this job? I edit supermegafast. That's one of the benefits of obsessively adjusting Reaper to your workflow in every capacity for 7 solid years.
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Old 09-19-2017, 09:35 PM   #19
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How do I get this job? I edit supermegafast. That's one of the benefits of obsessively adjusting Reaper to your workflow in every capacity for 7 solid years.
I listen to enough podcasts to hear these sorts of things mentioned, even if they're mentioned relatively infrequently. I remember Sam Harris commenting on his podcast that it costs him over $500 to have one of his episodes edited. His episodes are usually between 1-2 hours in length. Personally, in the times I've been tasked with editing two hours of dialogue, I don't find it takes much longer than five hours.
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