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Old 07-31-2021, 02:17 AM   #1
mschnell
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Default Run plugins optionally on modified or variable block size (automation accuracy)

In this thread:
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....11#post2468211
at least two users claim that Protools provides a better timing with automation of VST2s than Reaper does.
As the VST2 specification does not allow for better than block accuracy with DAW parameter automation, the only way I see that claim might be valid, is, that Protools might provide VSTs (if automated) with an audio stream with reduced block size, trading accuracy for CPU performance.

A user in this thread asked me to file a FR here, proposing that Reaper might offer an option to run a plugin slot on an audio stream with a modified block size.

This of course makes even more sense when combined with the already standing FR for an option to run a plugin slot on an audio stream with a modified sample rate for those plugins that sound better (due to lower aliasing) on a higher sample rate.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 08-01-2021 at 10:15 PM.
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Old 07-31-2021, 04:57 AM   #2
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+1000
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Old 07-31-2021, 12:54 PM   #3
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I seen discussion in other thread. Seem to be normal thing in other DAWs and strange in Reaper so it would be interesting if developers will see this. +
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Old 07-31-2021, 09:58 PM   #4
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+1 for this!
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Old 07-31-2021, 10:03 PM   #5
mschnell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strachupl View Post
it would be interesting if developers will see this.
... to do a decent analysis and publish the results to stop our guessing.
-Michael
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Old 07-31-2021, 10:26 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
... to do a decent analysis and publish the results to stop our guessing.
-Michael
Yes this! Thanks for posting this FR
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Old 08-01-2021, 05:58 AM   #7
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I'll quote myself from the other thread, where this mschnell's idea started

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Originally Posted by akademie View Post
Hi Michael,
that would be really interesting approach and actually could solve also the problem with PM parameter modulations of JSFX, VSTs for sound design (synth envelopes etc.) maybe, which needs smaller blocks than actual audio card's buffersize (= they directly rely on buffersize value).

As I already described in my FR *, if you design your synth patch using PM at 128 samples buffersize, then you open the project when the buffersize is set to 512 or more (e.g. for mixing), then nothing sounds as it should or as was meant to sound.
You either have to set that small buffersize (it may not be possible using actual CPU and/or audiodevice used, and you also have to remember the right original buffersize) or to have all parts rendered/frozen immediately.

* the link to mentioned Feature Request of mine:
Save & load Buffer settings to/from RPP
and also quotting from my other related Feature Request - Save & load project's buffer setting to/from RPP:
Quote:
Originally Posted by akademie View Post
Save & load project's buffer setting to/from RPP.

Add similar checkbox (and size) like already existing "Project sample rate" parameter in Project settings window.

If we use Reaper for synth/sound design, using a lot of parameter modulations, then the result is heavily affected by specific audio buffer settings (512 spls will not sound the same as 128 or 64, etc. and vice versa of course).

So it would be nice to have some kind of warning if we try to open project under different current audio buffer size setting (you know - different machine, soundcard, previously set for recording etc.)

Sure there would need to be ability to override such project's settings on loading.

Moreover, making the buffer settings number/text displayed in the top-right corner colored in red colour if buffer size of the project does not match would be huge help.

Last edited by akademie; 08-01-2021 at 06:14 AM.
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Old 08-01-2021, 06:12 AM   #8
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Also I have to note that in Linux (ALSA) it is possible to use very small values of buffersize even that the audiocard or CPU is not capable of, because you can increase so called "Periods" parameter which will help with that.

It means that the project made on 128 samples buffersize can be still run at 128 samples, but with much more periods to be playable. Latency would be higher of course, but processing time-constants would be the same as original, because blocksize is actually 128 and not 512 samples, even that the total number buffersize x periods (or whatever math is done there) may get the 512 samples or even more of latency in the end.

This would be something interesting for WASAPI and/or ASIO to have also (some clever internal buffersize slicing. manipulating or whatever).


(Note: It is not to solve the latency, which cannot be done, but to keep the exact sound relying on buffersize when continuously calculating time variant modifications to the sound - be it parameter modulation, e.g.filter sweep, or mixing automation).
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Old 08-01-2021, 08:07 AM   #9
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+111!
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Old 08-01-2021, 03:06 PM   #10
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I just learned that VST2 allows for dynamically variable buffer size. With modulating the buffer size you maybe can nicely approximate the point in the data stream where automation "jumps" by shifting the buffer boundaries to there.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 08-02-2021 at 06:19 AM.
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Old 08-03-2021, 07:50 AM   #11
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+1000
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Old 08-05-2021, 10:36 AM   #12
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+9999
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Old 08-05-2021, 08:17 PM   #13
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Can we summon @Justin or @schwa ?
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Old 08-07-2021, 10:28 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pink Wool View Post
Can we summon @Justin or @schwa ?
Yeah! can we do that?


+ 10000
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Old 08-08-2021, 01:50 AM   #15
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12 years ago, Justin stated that using dynamically variable buffer size might break compatibility with some VSTs.

I don't know if this still the case, or if those "inferior" VSTs are not distributed any more, (as other DAWs seem to assume).

Nonetheless it suggests that such a feature should be optionally activated for aby plugin slot.
-Michael
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Old 08-08-2021, 02:15 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
In this thread:
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....11#post2468211
at least two users claim that Protools provides a better timing with automation of VST2s than Reaper does.
FWIW, you guys do know that Pro Tools doesn't support VST2, right? Just saying...
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Old 08-09-2021, 01:41 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
12 years ago, Justin stated that using dynamically variable buffer size might break compatibility with some VSTs.

I don't know if this still the case, or if those "inferior" VSTs are not distributed any more, (as other DAWs seem to assume).

Nonetheless it suggests that such a feature should be optionally activated for aby plugin slot.
-Michael
12 years ago!
12 years!
12 years without accurate automation...that sucks!

I didn't bought a monster pc to get inaccurate results, I got accurate results in every other daw that I used, why not in reaper?
I want accurate results.

this is something that should be optional from the user's side.
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Old 08-09-2021, 10:37 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tale View Post
FWIW, you guys do know that Pro Tools doesn't support VST2, right? Just saying...
That is a funny insight

Maybe Wrapper plugins modify the block size !??!?

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 08-09-2021 at 01:32 PM.
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Old 08-09-2021, 10:55 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tale View Post
FWIW, you guys do know that Pro Tools doesn't support VST2, right? Just saying...
Most unprofessional...🙄
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Old 08-09-2021, 11:06 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UknownSource View Post
12 years ago!
12 years!
12 years without accurate automation...that sucks!

I didn't bought a monster pc to get inaccurate results, I got accurate results in every other daw that I used, why not in reaper?
I want accurate results.

this is something that should be optional from the user's side.
exactly.
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