Old 10-20-2011, 04:18 PM   #1
andrew grove
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Default I improved my sound by 1000% ask me how

OK since you asked, hahahah. I first recorded the noise my setup makes at the average levels of my meters. Then I saved the file and called it MYNOISE. Then I imported it into the project I was working on. I loaded the RelFir filter in the Master Channel next to last before the Hard Limiter. I set the RelFir to "SUBTRACT" and got a good sample of my noise. Oh yeh, turn on the "AUTOMATICALLY BUILD NOISE PROFILE". Then turned it OFF. The result was to remove all noise that my setup makes from the music as it was playing and it was 1000% better. Enjoy, Reaper is the Best there is!
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Old 10-20-2011, 05:24 PM   #2
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What!

This sounds very interesting. Please explain more thoroughly, step-by-step. This could be epic.

I know you kinda did before, but for the sake of those of us who take a little more time to grasp things, can we get a numbered step by step guide?
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Old 10-20-2011, 05:26 PM   #3
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yes, I would really like to know what exactly is happening here
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Old 10-20-2011, 05:35 PM   #4
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sounds like placing the noiseprint out of phase with the mix via ReaFir.
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Old 10-20-2011, 05:37 PM   #5
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That's neat. Does everybody do this, and if not, why not?

Waiting for a more exact description of how it works, or how to make it work.
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Old 10-20-2011, 05:56 PM   #6
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if not, why not?
A little bit of noise never hurt anyone I haven't tried this with ReaFir, but I am skeptical of artifacts - you can't get something for nothing with signal processing.
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Old 10-20-2011, 06:00 PM   #7
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this is how most noise reduction plugins that have a learn mode work and have worked for years.
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Old 10-20-2011, 06:11 PM   #8
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I have never really had a noise problem, but this seems like a great tool to have in my tool bag.

I want to learn how. Guess it's experiment time!
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Old 10-20-2011, 06:16 PM   #9
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this is how most noise reduction plugins that have a learn mode work and have worked for years.
And the ones which work better with fewer artifacts are based on, but much more sophisticated than this approach.
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Old 10-20-2011, 08:48 PM   #10
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Like timlloyd said, you don't get something for nothing. It's worth giving a shot, but compare the two and decide which is better.

On the track Nicholas by Forget Cassettes, the beginning is just guitar panned hard left and vocals panned hard right. (with headphones on, I don't think I'd like it. but headphones are for jerks.)

There was no attempt at all to silence the noise from the guitar amp. It's just the hum of it being on.

So either they tried to eliminate the noise and thought the guitar recording suffered, or they left it in for mood.

I really dig this method for recordings of speaking though. When it's about clarity and understanding, and not being musical.
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Old 10-21-2011, 12:10 AM   #11
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Lots on info about using ReaFIR to subtract noise available all over the web. Here are just a few links (in no particular order):
http://www.milezero.org/index.php/mu...he_reafir.html
http://www.wavosaur.com/tutorials/ho...move-noise.php
http://wiki.cockos.com/wiki/index.php/ReaFIR
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=31762
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Old 10-21-2011, 12:29 AM   #12
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Noise cancelling software works well when there is certain peaks in the noise spectrum, like 50Hz hum and it's harmonics. But white noise is by default random so you can't just sample hiss and remove it, especially with phase cancelling. You can sample that hiss noise and reduce it but because it is made from white noise (no significant peaks) it will be wide and reduce "noise" allover the place and it really sounds horrible with stuff like acoustic guitars or other wide frequency sources, IMHO. On bass guitar and even with electric guitar it works better because there is no important top end to begin with.

I'll admit that I haven't used noise reduction plugins in years because I hated the sound back in the day, but I don't think the randomness of white noise has changed since.
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Old 10-21-2011, 03:01 AM   #13
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But white noise is by default random so you can't just sample hiss and remove it, especially with phase cancelling.
I do believe the same: Noise in this case is random
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Old 10-21-2011, 05:00 AM   #14
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So you used Reafir to remove noise... I dont understand how this is different from what is in the manual about using Reafir to remove noise...

Also using it on the master track is bad idea. Use it only on the channels you need to get noise removed and profile the noise for each of them. It will give more precision, and you will loose less audio information.

Oh yes, you do understand that the subtraction will affect the audio right?



I think the best way to control noise is to get your tracks clean on pre-mix, leaving only audio or mute, properly setting up gates will help in this. Also with a half decent setup and cables, you should not have noise problems that require reafir with most sources.
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Old 10-21-2011, 06:55 AM   #15
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Better solution: Make your PC less noisy.

"Gee Doc, it hurts when I hit myself in the head."
Doc: "So stop hitting yourself..."
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Old 10-21-2011, 02:43 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dea-man View Post
What!

This sounds very interesting. Please explain more thoroughly, step-by-step. This could be epic.

I know you kinda did before, but for the sake of those of us who take a little more time to grasp things, can we get a numbered step by step guide?
Ok,sorry I've been bussy
1) Record your noise. ie: open new project. Add a track, turn all volumes up and record just the hiss or noise. (I actually made 2 tracks at different times)
2) Save render wave file as MYNOISE.WAV
3) Open the project you are working on and add the MYNOISE.WAV as a new track and put it on SOLO (S BUTTON) so only it will be playing in your project.
4) Load ReaFir VST in your MASTER OUT CHANNEL (I now move it to the first after I heard it works better then the last.
5) Change it from an EQer (default) to Subtract (last in choice) and change it from Points Smooth to Precise. Also click the Automatically build profile box.
6)Hit PLAY and now only the MYNOISE is playing and the RelFir should be registering the noise levels. (LET IT PLAY FOR ABOUT 30 SECS)
7) Unclick the "build profile" box and now you have a profile of your noise.
8) Leave it in SUBTRACT MODE
9) REMOVE THE TRACK CONTAINING "MYNOISE" FILE
10) Play you Project now and it sound a whole lot better and I hope 1000% as it did in mine. Rock on and Muse till it hurts
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Old 10-21-2011, 03:20 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by andrew grove View Post
Ok,sorry I've been bussy
1) Record your noise. ie: open new project. Add a track, turn all volumes up and record just the hiss or noise. (I actually made 2 tracks at different times)
2) Save render wave file as MYNOISE.WAV
3) Open the project you are working on and add the MYNOISE.WAV as a new track and put it on SOLO (S BUTTON) so only it will be playing in your project.
4) Load ReaFir VST in your MASTER OUT CHANNEL (I now move it to the first after I heard it works better then the last.
5) Change it from an EQer (default) to Subtract (last in choice) and change it from Points Smooth to Precise. Also click the Automatically build profile box.
6)Hit PLAY and now only the MYNOISE is playing and the RelFir should be registering the noise levels. (LET IT PLAY FOR ABOUT 30 SECS)
7) Unclick the "build profile" box and now you have a profile of your noise.
8) Leave it in SUBTRACT MODE
9) REMOVE THE TRACK CONTAINING "MYNOISE" FILE
10) Play you Project now and it sound a whole lot better and I hope 1000% as it did in mine. Rock on and Muse till it hurts
I don't get why you record your noise as a wav. You can let reafir build the profile right away instead.

You got to have some really lo-fi equipment if you think this makes an improvement in sound quality for you. I would advice to invest in some better gear honestly.
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Old 10-21-2011, 03:58 PM   #18
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This is NOT simple time-domain subtraction and it CAN work with white noise.

Regular subtraction only works in vary rare cases, where you have a bit-exact copy of the noise only. In real-life, you might have an exact digital copy of the guitar-only or vocal-only and you can completely subtract that out. But, you essentially never have a bit-for-bit copy of the noise.

ReaFIR and other FFT based noise reduction works in the frequency domain and is more like a noise gate... Or more like a thousand little independant noisegates tuned to different frequency bands. For example, if you've got a 60Hz buzz, it will filter-out all of the 60Hz signal whenever the signal (noise) in the 60hz band is below the "noise fingerprint" threshold. The harmonics in the buzz will be treated similarly. If you play a bass note around 60Hz, the gate will open and the note will pass through, and the buzz-noise will be masked by the bass note.

If the noise is bad, you can get artifacts, but if you have a tiny amount of tape hiss or preamp hiss it can work very well. i.e. Noise reduction works best when you don't really need it... If you've got a bad noise problem, the cure can be worse than the disease.

Last edited by DVDdoug; 10-21-2011 at 04:04 PM.
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Old 10-22-2011, 12:01 AM   #19
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This is NOT simple time-domain subtraction and it CAN work with white noise.

Regular subtraction only works in vary rare cases, where you have a bit-exact copy of the noise only. In real-life, you might have an exact digital copy of the guitar-only or vocal-only and you can completely subtract that out. But, you essentially never have a bit-for-bit copy of the noise.

ReaFIR and other FFT based noise reduction works in the frequency domain and is more like a noise gate... Or more like a thousand little independant noisegates tuned to different frequency bands. For example, if you've got a 60Hz buzz, it will filter-out all of the 60Hz signal whenever the signal (noise) in the 60hz band is below the "noise fingerprint" threshold. The harmonics in the buzz will be treated similarly. If you play a bass note around 60Hz, the gate will open and the note will pass through, and the buzz-noise will be masked by the bass note.

If the noise is bad, you can get artifacts, but if you have a tiny amount of tape hiss or preamp hiss it can work very well. i.e. Noise reduction works best when you don't really need it... If you've got a bad noise problem, the cure can be worse than the disease.
Yes you can use noise reduction on hiss (white noise) like I wrote and you do have those thousands of tiny frequency bands but what it means is that it affects everything because it works on all those bands more or less. I personally hate how it sounds on acoustic guitar attacks or with human voice, for example. But like I wrote, it can work ok with instruments that don't have anything important "up there" where the heart of hiss lies. Mainly bass or electric guitar. But I much rather use gates and automation.

Those squealy squeek hollow warbling transients are just so horrible...

EDIT: I do agree that those artifacts are hard to hear if you do very mild noise reduction, but my philosophy is, when you don't need much, don't do it at all, there isn't much to gain anyway But all in all my biggest problem with noise reduction is personal preference. And I know I've watched numerous old films on DVD and listened many remastered records of the past that do have noise reduction and only seldomly has it really bothered me.
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Old 10-22-2011, 01:36 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by gavriloP View Post
Yes you can use noise reduction on hiss (white noise) like I wrote and you do have those thousands of tiny frequency bands but what it means is that it affects everything because it works on all those bands more or less. I personally hate how it sounds on acoustic guitar attacks or with human voice, for example. But like I wrote, it can work ok with instruments that don't have anything important "up there" where the heart of hiss lies. Mainly bass or electric guitar. But I much rather use gates and automation.

Those squealy squeek hollow warbling transients are just so horrible...

EDIT: I do agree that those artifacts are hard to hear if you do very mild noise reduction, but my philosophy is, when you don't need much, don't do it at all, there isn't much to gain anyway But all in all my biggest problem with noise reduction is personal preference. And I know I've watched numerous old films on DVD and listened many remastered records of the past that do have noise reduction and only seldomly has it really bothered me.
Personally I think you got this noise thing all wrong. If you follow my instructions and did it you will see the profile is actually From very low (40Hz) to high (10KHz). Try it record the hiss or noise and then load an EQ and you will see you can't just lower the volume of say 5K-10KHz and get rid or it. It will be present all the down. Nose or hiss is like snow it is tiny specks of sound all over the place. I said I recorded two tracks of the noise (sporadic bits of sound like snow) and then got a profile of it and negated it. It wroks cause ReaFir is acting like a machine gun shooting down those snow flakes. Ok I heard you, I'm not a flake.
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Old 10-22-2011, 02:26 PM   #21
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I use VSTi synths so this wouldn't apply to me. But I like this idea. I used to use cooledit's noise reduction on my old wimpy soundcard before I got a 24 bit one.
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