Old 02-11-2020, 10:21 PM   #1
frabato56
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 36
Default multiple simultaneous time signatures

Hi nice folks,

I'd like to have a koto part in 4/4 and a shakuhachi part in 5/8. And that's not to mention the Zappaesque styles that would benefit from this feature. Is this possible in reaper?

thanks
frabato56 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2020, 10:48 PM   #2
Fergler
Human being with feelings
 
Fergler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 4,043
Default

It's not possible but you could try setting the project timebase to time, and selecting all your MIDI and setting it to ignore project tempo (setting the tempo to match project) in source properties. Then change the bars that are in 4/4 to 5/4 using action: Create measure from time selection (new time signature)...

Obviously the downsides are that it takes a while to do this if you have multiple time changes already, as it will have to be done for each one. Also MIDI cannot cross over one of these time signatures.

MIDI and time signatures has a pretty huge flaw in Reaper when it comes to changing it after the fact which is why we can't simply set the project timebase to time and expect it to work. If you try, it will alter the length of the MIDI items even though no time was added or lost from the project when converting say 4/4 at 120bpm to 5/4 at 150bpm whereas audio behaves normally. Though you could alt-drag these all back to where they should be afterwards.
__________________
Check out my hip-hop, funk-rock band Theatre Crisp
Fergler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2020, 02:25 AM   #3
domzy
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,279
Default

you could have two project tabs with different time signatures (and tick the "synchronise start times..." option)
domzy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2020, 02:45 AM   #4
IXix
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: mcr:uk
Posts: 3,453
Default

MIDI items can have independent tempo and time signature settings, in Item Properties -> Take media source -> Properties.
IXix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2020, 03:12 AM   #5
Judders
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 9,640
Default

When you work with polymeter in a DAW, it's the same as scoring it. You generally pick one and write the accents to reflect a different time feel in other parts. The other option is to pick a common denominator and end up with unwieldy long bars.
Judders is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2020, 07:41 AM   #6
frabato56
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 36
Default

Thanks for the replies. I did a test in 4/4 and 3/4. I have dual monitors (but I don't know if it matters). I recorded track one in 4/4 and then I recorded track 2 with the metronome still in 4/4 but I played in 3/4. I opened up two instances of the score editor (on separate monitors) and then right clicked the time signature on track 2 and changed it to 3/4. It came out perfectly so I have 4/4 and 3/4 playing on two different monitors and playing in perfect sync. I've had Reaper for a couple of years now but I'm just getting into it now. I appreciate all of your suggestions and I'll take a look at those as well. Oh yes, the tempo was the same for each time signature.
frabato56 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2020, 08:15 AM   #7
Fergler
Human being with feelings
 
Fergler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 4,043
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by frabato56 View Post
Oh yes, the tempo was the same for each time signature.
As in the tempo was 75 percent of 4/4's tempo when in 3/4?
__________________
Check out my hip-hop, funk-rock band Theatre Crisp
Fergler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2020, 12:31 PM   #8
Judders
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 9,640
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergler View Post
As in the tempo was 75 percent of 4/4's tempo when in 3/4?
I believe fratbato56 is talking about polymeter, not polyrhythms. So cycles of 12 beats rather than 3 playing against 4 each bar (to take your example of 3 and 4).
Judders is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2020, 12:34 PM   #9
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 25,893
Default

I used to create very complex poly-rhythms within poly-rhythms in reaper - you can do in reaper by changing the snap/grid to any fraction you need (as you go) since it will allow most any fraction you can imagine. I think you can do polymeter this way (same basic result) but would have to check.
__________________
Music happens between the grid lines.
karbomusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2020, 12:40 PM   #10
Judders
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 9,640
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
I used to create very complex poly-rhythms within poly-rhythms in reaper - you can do in reaper by changing the snap/grid to any fraction you need (as you go) since it will allow most any fraction you can imagine. I think you can do polymeter this way (same basic result) but would have to check.
Sounds like the OP is playing it, so that's easy.

If you're programming polyrhythms, the easiest way I've found is to write it to the grid then alt-drag to fit a bar.
Judders is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2020, 12:42 PM   #11
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 25,893
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders View Post
Sounds like the OP is playing it, so that's easy.

If you're programming polyrhythms, the easiest way I've found is to write it to the grid then alt-drag to fit a bar.
I just change the grid when placing the notes for each new rhythm...

4/4, 3/4, 6/4, 1/7 and so on, works wonderfully...

But if live playing it, dunno.
__________________
Music happens between the grid lines.
karbomusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2020, 12:46 PM   #12
Judders
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 9,640
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
I just change the grid when placing the notes for each new rhythm...

4/4, 3/4, 6/4, 1/7 and so on, works wonderfully...

But if live playing it, dunno.
If playing live, just hope you don't have to quantize!
Judders is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2020, 01:51 PM   #13
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 25,893
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders View Post
If playing live, just hope you don't have to quantize!
I quantize as part of my playing.
__________________
Music happens between the grid lines.
karbomusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2020, 03:12 PM   #14
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 19,699
Default

I have been roped into all sorts of these polyrhythmic or polymetric thingies over the years and STILL don`t see the point in making music folks cant dance to.
Mind you I do love watching people trying to dance to stuff like PF`s Money or Brubecks take 5.

Seems to be easier for people who have no sense of rhythm!

Plus, whilst it is easy to write some of these rhythms, the tricky bit for me has always been others performing them, as most of the syl-LA-bles have an em-PHA-sis on them which is of course open to interpretation. As far as I know there isn't a way of actually writing down HOW to phrase the stuff consistently. Or is there?

P.S. I tried playing a waltz-based composition of mine at a jam a while back & most of the players couldn't even cope with 3/4. *sigh*
__________________
"What a dick comment. I'm gonna make sure to avoid your name." Dicks other than Trump can speak????
ivansc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2020, 03:23 PM   #15
Judders
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 9,640
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
I have been roped into all sorts of these polyrhythmic or polymetric thingies over the years and STILL don`t see the point in making music folks cant dance to.
Even little kids can dance to polyrhythms!

Judders is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2020, 03:24 PM   #16
domzy
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,279
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
I have been roped into all sorts of these polyrhythmic or polymetric thingies over the years and STILL don`t see the point in making music folks cant dance to.
you must have a pretty narrow view of dance
domzy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2020, 03:36 PM   #17
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 25,893
Default

Last time my band played polyrhythms live the audience danced to it just fine...

__________________
Music happens between the grid lines.
karbomusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2020, 06:17 AM   #18
frabato56
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 36
Default

Sadly I just found that the score editors are not persistent. If I close and reopen them they both revert to 4/4. I'll have a look at some of the other solutions presented here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergler View Post
As in the tempo was 75 percent of 4/4's tempo when in 3/4?
To be more clear, I meant that both time signatures were set to 90 bpm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
I just change the grid when placing the notes for each new rhythm...

4/4, 3/4, 6/4, 1/7 and so on, works wonderfully...

But if live playing it, dunno.
I'm referring to polymeters rather than polyrhythms but thanks for that tip as I'm very interested in polyrhythms too.
frabato56 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2020, 06:24 AM   #19
Judders
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 9,640
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by frabato56 View Post
Sadly I just found that the score editors are not persistent. If I close and reopen them they both revert to 4/4. I'll have a look at some of the other solutions presented here.
Like I said, in real world scoring you just pick one for the score and accent and annotate the other time signatures so that the players can read their parts. Everyone needs to know where the are in the score, and if each player is on a different bar number at the same point in time... it just gets too confusing.
Judders is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2020, 08:08 AM   #20
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 19,699
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders View Post
Even little kids can dance to polyrhythms!

(grin) My wife lived in Ghana for several years & went to an all-black, all-local school. Both she & I feel like that`s a pretty straightforward 4/4. What`s polyrhythmic about it? All I can detect is some pretty standard afro style accents here and there. Maybe its me...I`ve got several sample albums from donkeys years ago that feature bands from all over africa & none of them did anything three legged, for want of a better description.

Seriously, if I am honestly missing something here, I would LOVE an explanation.

I have played in all sorts of "ethnic" groups over the years & the only time I ever struggled was with some asshole blues guitarist, who told me and my drummer mate to "play something funky in 9/8 that I can jam over" Can you spell "pretentious"?

EDIT: Went back & had another listen. This is actually multi-rhythmic to my mind. Watch the dancers and you`ll see they are following the different patters as they change, not following multiple different rhythms being played simultaneously.. In regular western music, there would be a melody verse bridge etc but in this kinda stuff, the drumming patters are fixed. Kinda like playing in a raga group. You have to know the rules, they aren`t just making it up as they go along.Maybe this is why I dont get what you are on about.
__________________
"What a dick comment. I'm gonna make sure to avoid your name." Dicks other than Trump can speak????

Last edited by ivansc; 02-13-2020 at 08:15 AM.
ivansc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2020, 08:12 AM   #21
frabato56
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 36
Default

Hi Judders,

I've seen real world performances, for example Frank Zappa's London Symphony Orchestra recordings which which were premiered by The Berkley Symphony Orchestra. Kent Nagano was conducting a different time signature in each hand on several of the sections. I've been writing in two time signatures since university days (about 40 years ago). These were piano pieces that were played by one of my professors, different time signatures in each hand, he was able to do it. I agree with you that it's probably a nightmare for the players but I'm doing this all myself using digital samples. It's much easier for me to see the parts in their real time signatures rather than accenting in a foreign time signature. I realize that this is something that most people have no interest in but if I find a solution, I'll post it. If I can't, then your suggestion is certainly workable and I can give it a try, so thanks.
frabato56 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2020, 12:29 PM   #22
Judders
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 9,640
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
(grin) My wife lived in Ghana for several years & went to an all-black, all-local school. Both she & I feel like that`s a pretty straightforward 4/4. What`s polyrhythmic about it?
There is a rhythm in 3 going on at the same time as that 4 you are hearing.

I would say that any tune that has triplet syncopation or swing is technically polyrhythmic. Lots of that is very danceable!
Judders is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2020, 01:07 PM   #23
Judders
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 9,640
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by frabato56 View Post
Hi Judders,

I've seen real world performances, for example Frank Zappa's London Symphony Orchestra recordings which which were premiered by The Berkley Symphony Orchestra. Kent Nagano was conducting a different time signature in each hand on several of the sections. I've been writing in two time signatures since university days (about 40 years ago). These were piano pieces that were played by one of my professors, different time signatures in each hand, he was able to do it. I agree with you that it's probably a nightmare for the players but I'm doing this all myself using digital samples. It's much easier for me to see the parts in their real time signatures rather than accenting in a foreign time signature. I realize that this is something that most people have no interest in but if I find a solution, I'll post it. If I can't, then your suggestion is certainly workable and I can give it a try, so thanks.
Hey frabato!

Yeah, I know what you're talking about. I've never seen a conventional score with more than one time signature written simultaneously, even Zappa's work. There is a very good reason for this: how does the conductor manage rehearsals if they have to work out which bar number everyone is starting from (or in this case, which beat of which bar) every time they stop the ensemble and tell them where they are going from? It's simply unmanageable unless everyone is working from a common score. It would be much easier for all the musicians who are looking at accents instead of bar lines, but they wouldn't know where they are in the piece in relation to anyone else.

I've seen graphic scores written this way, but only when synchronised playing is not necessary.

If you find a way to do it, that's cool, but all DAW's are set up in a way that is compatible with standard Western notation, so you generally have to write in that mode.

One way might be to figure out how to insert "fake" bar lines?
Judders is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2020, 06:33 AM   #24
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 19,699
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders View Post
There is a rhythm in 3 going on at the same time as that 4 you are hearing.

I would say that any tune that has triplet syncopation or swing is technically polyrhythmic. Lots of that is very danceable!
If you says so...
__________________
"What a dick comment. I'm gonna make sure to avoid your name." Dicks other than Trump can speak????
ivansc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2020, 06:53 AM   #25
Judders
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 9,640
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
If you says so...
Hehe...

Try counting 3's where you were counting 4's. Same bar length, different meter.
Judders is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:02 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.