Old 06-11-2015, 03:19 AM   #41
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Regarding press, this is not as clear as you call it. I guess first of all you will need to be registered to the insider program.
It is, it has been made quite clear ever since the first announcement by Microsoft last year. Doing a search for "get windows 10 Insider Preview" brings you HERE as first option.

First paragraph there:

A preview for PC experts
Windows 10 Insider Preview is here today, but it’s a long way from done. We’re going to make it faster, better, more fun at parties...you get the idea. Join the Windows Insider Program to make sure you get all the new features that are on the way. If you’re okay with a moving target and don’t want to miss out on the latest stuff, keep reading. Insider Preview could be just your thing.



So yes, very well documented and clearly explained.. If you're willing to read a few lines of text
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Old 06-11-2015, 04:33 AM   #42
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The only way to avoid this is to buy Win10 Pro for around 200 bucks.
No, unless you are building a new computer with nothing installed on it you'll just be upgrading Home to Pro for £65. Compared to the risk of buying Apple hardware....

http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/mac/w...ramme-3497935/

... (check out the comments too about other recalls and bad behaviour) and software we are talking about a nirvana of honestly and straightforwardness.
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Old 06-11-2015, 07:01 AM   #43
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First paragraph there ...
... doesn't say, that Insiders get RTM Pro for free ... as the whole program doesn't say that. It has a reason, that press discusses this topic
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Old 06-11-2015, 07:05 AM   #44
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Compared to the risk of buying Apple hardware...
Did anybody say Apple's products would be perfect?

It doesn't matter, if one buys a Mac or a Windows machine ... nothing is perfect and both Apple and MS love their customers ... as long as they pay
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Old 06-11-2015, 07:54 AM   #45
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Did anybody say Apple's products would be perfect?
Actually, yeah, every time an Apple fan boi insists Windows "doesn't work" for whatever reason. Conversely, the opposite must be true.
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Old 06-11-2015, 07:57 AM   #46
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Again - I asked this question about "upgrading" to 8 and didn't get an answer:

why do I want to go to Windows 10?

Why do I want to pay MS every year just to use my computer?

Why do I want to be at the mercy of updates when MS feels like I should update?

X64 Win7 is working great for me, why do I want to mess with it?
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Old 06-11-2015, 08:06 AM   #47
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@Aymara: It actually does matter if you spend £2,500 on a laptop. I'd expect premium service for that price, not being messed around for years getting known faulty components replaced with other known faulty components until the warranty ran out - costing no end of time and money.

I think the context is important considering the apparent issue you have with paying a £65 upgrade to Windows 10 Pro.

"Yeah, screw M$ and paying £65 - I'm paying £2,500 (+ warranty that won't be honoured until I get a legal team together) for a shiny Mac running OSX that doesn't perform as well at low latencies as Windows on the same system and has software and hardware that might literally explode at any point."

I do admire their graphic designers though, top quality work from them. I use Object and Cario docks myself, depending on what OS I am using. Really like the way icons pop up a bit bigger and then go back to their real size. Oh, and those wallpapers are just to die for.
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Old 06-11-2015, 10:00 AM   #48
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Again - I asked this question about "upgrading" to 8 and didn't get an answer:

why do I want to go to Windows 10?

Why do I want to pay MS every year just to use my computer?

Why do I want to be at the mercy of updates when MS feels like I should update?

X64 Win7 is working great for me, why do I want to mess with it?
You might want Win10 in order to get it free and THEN decide if you want to actually install it or not.
If it comes as an iso download you can do that easily, IF it comes as an automatic update you can get round that in one of two ways.
Either allow updates to download, but not install in your windows settings, in which case you will have the update without being forced to adopt it immediately, or make a disk image backup of your whole system before the update to 10 arrives. If you dont like it, reinstall the earlier OS complete with all your settings and data intact.

You dont HAVE to upgrade.

You certainly don't HAVE to pay MS anything every year.
Not sure where you got that idea from.
Win10 is a free update from any version of win7 or 8, for the first year after launch. Any NEW ADOPTERS after that year will pay for Win10 same as any other OS update in the past. This is NOT an annual fee and there is no paying for interim bug fixes and minor updates.

Win7 X64 worked fine for me - I had helped with the beta on that, so when 8 rolled round I was happy to do beta for that - realised straight away that it was a little faster smoother and used memory more efficiently than Win7 on my particular hardware. I also didn't have any issue with the disappearing Start button and in any case the FREE update to 8.1 fixed that for most people.
The ONLY reason I can think of for "messing" with your existing install is that any changes to current software and hardware are going to be based on whatever the current state of play is.
If you never plan on buying another plugin, interface, etc., or indeed updating your DAW or other application software, there really isn't any need to change and indeed you can certainly upgrade later rather than sooner. I know a lot of guys who like to stay one step behind and I can see some sense in that.
I used to be one of them, but since win7 I have had a 99% problem free experience on Windows, which I have to say amazes me! Never thought I would see the day.

The ONLY hardware issue I have had was under win7 64bit with the backwards-compatibility of USB3. I solved that one by dumping the various USB interfaces I had used which had not been able to cope with modern hardware and did what I should have dome in the first plAce. Bought RME.

If I were in your shoes I would probably get win10 while it is free but not install it until it has had it tyres thoroughly kicked by the rest of us recordists.
Me? I like living dangerously.
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Old 06-11-2015, 03:03 PM   #49
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... doesn't say, that Insiders get RTM Pro for free ... as the whole program doesn't say that. It has a reason, that press discusses this topic
Well, I guess if you just sit on your *ss and wait for Microsoft to come to your door and personally tell you this then you would be correct.

The media reporting on Win10 have, several times over, reported on this and posted tweets and links from the Microsoft team confirming this. I'm not in the habit of collecting these so that when someone, somewhere comes around and seems unable or unwilling to find this for themselves I can spoon feed them. But hen again, what's it to you, you're using Mac now so it doe snot really make a difference to you anymore.

Besides that, blocking automatic Windows updates is trivial even on WIN10 Home, it's just a bit more work than clicking a radio button.
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Old 06-11-2015, 03:08 PM   #50
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Again - I asked this question about "upgrading" to 8 and didn't get an answer:

why do I want to go to Windows 10?

Why do I want to pay MS every year just to use my computer?

Why do I want to be at the mercy of updates when MS feels like I should update?

X64 Win7 is working great for me, why do I want to mess with it?
Because it is the new model for Microsoft to keep their OS updated, it has a smaller footprint than any previous OS version and overall it's just a better product

You do not have to pay every year, what makes you think that?

You're not

Because mainstream support ended, any future development, features and additional functionality may not be available for WIN7. If it works fine for you you are not forced to update but you will be left behind and by updating now it will not cost you anything.
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Old 06-11-2015, 03:12 PM   #51
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I do admire their graphic designers though, top quality work from them.
It was quite amazing to see how Apple copied some of he core WIN10 stuff already in their new OS release. And seriously, who calls their OS release 'El Capitan'.. Unless to need a constant reminder you should be thinking your OS is better than the rest.
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Old 06-11-2015, 04:37 PM   #52
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Windows 10 is installed via Windows Update and it does a in-place-installation with a rollback-function.

I dont know how many times that has to be pointed out. there is no "clean install" or formatting or any of the bullshit needed. ok, some restarts will be necessary ...

I have done some in-place-upgrades. worked absolut flawless. absolut. no data loss.

the whole discussion is now at a point where it is getting religious. noone knows, everyone assumes, most come from false assumptions to wrong conclusion, it is mostly talking about what maybe could be.

that is the definition of pointless.

make an image-backup of your C-drive, in-place-install Win 10, if you dont like it, roll back and replay the backup.

discussion closed.
What if I don't have a C-drive?
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Old 06-11-2015, 10:49 PM   #53
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I think the context is important considering the apparent issue you have with paying a £65 upgrade to Windows 10 Pro.
I wanted a new notebook, mainly because my old Vaio's fan is too loud for microphone recordings and it's 5 year old hardware a bit slow compared to current models.

After narrowing down the potential choices to the Asus G751 and the Macbook Pro, because these seem to be the only models being silent and powerful enough, I decided for the Mac for several reasons.

The need to pay for Windows 10 Pro was just one of them.

So I'm neither an idiot nor an Apple fan boy
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Old 06-11-2015, 11:03 PM   #54
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What if I don't have a C-drive?
Then you should clone the boot partition and the partition, where Windows is installed. This would be the fallback strategy in case anything goes wrong or you should hate Win10. But the uprade installer should be able to handle non-standard installations.
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Old 06-11-2015, 11:49 PM   #55
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I'll keep my w7 drive and put w10 on a new drive.
Then you will need to clone the Win7 drive first, because a clean install is only possible AFTER the upgrade. So I guess, that you will need a MS Live Account too, because a clean install will erase local activation data.
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Old 06-12-2015, 12:13 AM   #56
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Then you should clone the boot partition and the partition, where Windows is installed. This would be the fallback strategy in case anything goes wrong or you should hate Win10. But the uprade installer should be able to handle non-standard installations.
I have two SSD drives and I just roll back (in my Martela chair) and listen to the sound of silence.
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Old 06-12-2015, 12:45 AM   #57
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Then you will need to clone the Win7 drive first, because a clean install is only possible AFTER the upgrade.
Simpler option is to sign up for Windows Insider. It would stand to reason the RTM will be on the slow ring in that program which means there will also be an ISO to download..
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Old 06-12-2015, 12:49 AM   #58
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What if I don't have a C-drive?

I really hope you are joking. Just in case you aren't, C:\ is your primary drive. Click on My Computer or This Computer or whatever it is called on your system.
You will see a drive called Windows or similar with the drive letter C:\
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Old 06-12-2015, 01:40 AM   #59
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I really hope you are joking. Just in case you aren't, C:\ is your primary drive. Click on My Computer or This Computer or whatever it is called on your system.
You will see a drive called Windows or similar with the drive letter C:\
You can run win7 from any partition, i had mine running from H:\ once.
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Old 06-12-2015, 02:59 AM   #60
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I wanted a new notebook, mainly because my old Vaio's fan is too loud for microphone recordings and it's 5 year old hardware a bit slow compared to current models.

After narrowing down the potential choices to the Asus G751 and the Macbook Pro, because these seem to be the only models being silent and powerful enough, I decided for the Mac for several reasons.

The need to pay for Windows 10 Pro was just one of them.

So I'm neither an idiot nor an Apple fan boy
We are all only human so every time we do something involving a commitment of any kind we do tend to make it The Best Decision... Ever in our minds. I'm getting that (and the side effects) from your posts on the subject. The side effects include making the alternatives The Worst Decision... Ever to further reaffirm our belief that we do indeed possess excellent judgement and impeccable taste.

Re quiet operation... that's a tricky one to quantify. My old i3 laptop is silent up to a certain load/CPU temp (it has an SSD), as is your MBP. What would be a meaningful test in this case since it's widely reported that an MBP can sound like a leaf blower when the fans come on at full speed (as do a lot of laptops)?
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Old 06-12-2015, 03:15 AM   #61
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What would be a meaningful test in this case since it's widely reported that an MBP can sound like a leaf blower when the fans come on at full speed (as do a lot of laptops)?
I tested the fan noise of the MBP in three ways:

1. Running Native Instruments Polyplex, which is a real CPU hog.
2. Running a game, that demands much power. I used the Mac version of Pillars of Eternity at full resolution.
3. Using a tool named smcFanControl to control the fan speed manually and check the average temperature.

My findings show, that Apple configured a very "conservative" fan speed to optimize the fan noise. The downside is, that under heavy load the MBP can get pretty hot. Press reports, that Apple configured a fan speed, that runs the CPU near Intel's spec limit under high load.

Regarding Reaper I found out, that it's sufficient to configure around +50% minimum fan speed. The fan is still very silent with 3200 RPM and the average temperature stays below 60°C. For demanding games OTOH I found 4500 RPM more suitable to keep the temperature low. At this high speed the noise is noticeable, but still much lower as with most other notebooks, especially my old Vaio.

I'm not sure, if I just had luck, but the fan noise on my MBP is really the lowest I have ever heard on a i7 system running at high load, even if I raise it with the mentioned fan control app.
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Old 06-12-2015, 03:30 AM   #62
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For demanding games OTOH I found 4500 RPM more suitable to keep the temperature low. At this high speed the noise is noticeable, but still much lower as with most other notebooks, especially my old Vaio.
Obviously can't say how old your Vaio was, but to me (and from experience) it sounds like a good clean and new application of thermal grease on the CPU would fix that.
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Old 06-12-2015, 05:14 AM   #63
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Obviously can't say how old your Vaio was, but to me (and from experience) it sounds like a good clean and new application of thermal grease on the CPU would fix that.
It's a 2010 model ... I guess, you're right, thermal compound and fan cleaning might make a difference. OTOH this Vaio model was always "famous" for it's loud fan.
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Old 06-12-2015, 07:13 AM   #64
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I really hope you are joking. Just in case you aren't, C:\ is your primary drive. Click on My Computer or This Computer or whatever it is called on your system.
You will see a drive called Windows or similar with the drive letter C:\
It's an SSD-drive called OCZ. I've never had hard drives called Windows or similar.
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Old 06-12-2015, 08:19 AM   #65
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Sorry I didnt make myself clear.
I had assumed you were running a Windows based PC rather than a Mac one.

IF you ARE on a PC-windows install, your primary hard disk (the OCZ) IS the C:\ drive. It has the windows operating system and presumably all your program files installed on it.
And the default naming convention was (and I thought still is) Windows.
Mine shows up as Windows (C
If you are on a Mac, sorry - I havent a clue.
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Old 06-12-2015, 08:21 AM   #66
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You can run win7 from any partition, i had mine running from H:\ once.
I am assuming since the poster I replied to was apparently not aware of the usual letter assignment on windows machines he had never opened the My Computer icon.
Well you never know.....
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Old 06-12-2015, 10:48 AM   #67
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IF you ARE on a PC-windows install, your primary hard disk (the OCZ) IS the C:\ drive.
That's usually the case, yes. And drive C: usually contains a WINDOWS folder with the Windows installation.

But some systems are different. The only thing ALL Window PCs have in common, is the fact that the boot partition is on the primary HDD. The Windows installation itself can be on a different partition or HDD, if that was chosen during a custom installation of Windows.

On Macs the Windows installation is always on C: if it is a bootcamp installation. If it's a VM, it could be different, if it has several virtual disks assigned. But here usually it's also C: because most VMs were usually setup with only one vDisk.
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Old 06-12-2015, 11:00 AM   #68
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That's why its good to reference paths as %SystemDrive%
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Old 06-12-2015, 01:18 PM   #69
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Then you should clone the boot partition and the partition, where Windows is installed.
Exactly how would one do that?
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Old 06-12-2015, 02:13 PM   #70
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Exactly how would one do that?
Several tools like CloneZilla can help you with this task.

Read this e.g. ...

http://superuser.com/questions/32164...her-hard-drive

... or google for "clone system drive". But I think above discussion is very detailled, so that no further research for alternatives is needed.

PS: If you want something easy to use, try Acronis or the free Seagate version.
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Old 06-12-2015, 02:49 PM   #71
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Sorry I didnt make myself clear.
I had assumed you were running a Windows based PC rather than a Mac one.

IF you ARE on a PC-windows install, your primary hard disk (the OCZ) IS the C:\ drive. It has the windows operating system and presumably all your program files installed on it.
And the default naming convention was (and I thought still is) Windows.
Mine shows up as Windows (C
If you are on a Mac, sorry - I havent a clue.
I believe OCZ doesn't make drives anymore so it's rather a NO-drive than anything else these days. The drive was empty when I bought it and it didn't have windows or all my program files installed on it. How could they have my files. I've never been to any naming conventions.

Mac? I don't really go to MacDonalds if that's what you're asking.
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Old 06-12-2015, 04:01 PM   #72
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I believe OCZ doesn't make drives anymore so it's rather a NO-drive than anything else these days. The drive was empty when I bought it and it didn't have windows or all my program files installed on it. How could they have my files. I've never been to any naming conventions.

Mac? I don't really go to MacDonalds if that's what you're asking.
Ahh, it appears that you are running the Troll operating system. Sorry, i've never used that one myself, never understood how it worked or why people would use it.
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Old 06-12-2015, 11:52 PM   #73
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Known in the UK as the WA-NKR OS.

I wonder what people get out of exposing themselves as twats in public like this guy?
Odd..... Especially since up till now he has appeared to be a normal rational person....

Maybe a troll came out from under its bridge and hijacked his user accunt?
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Old 06-13-2015, 01:33 AM   #74
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Why do you talk about yourself in the third person? Are you from Russia?
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Old 06-13-2015, 02:22 AM   #75
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Ha Ha! Funny - now we are back in the schoolyard.

P.S. I can keep this up as long as you like.....
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Old 06-13-2015, 04:11 AM   #76
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...

Maybe a troll came out from under its bridge and hijacked his user accunt?
he is a shapeshifter ...
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Old 06-13-2015, 04:37 AM   #77
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I already tested Win 10 in a VM, because it's part of my job to support MS products and because I was curious.

Where does MS say, that I will get Pro though my Win 7 licence is Home?



From my point of view the Macbook was expensive, but no waiste of money. It works much better than my Windows i7 notebook regarding Reaper and photo editing, which is my second hobby.

I know, that a Mac is not for everybody, but I wanted to warn everybody to closely compare Win 7 Home and Win 10 Home ... the later has some downsides ... Windows Update enforcement, a horrible user management and who says, that they really deactivate the keylogger and even if they do, that it can't easily be reactivated later?

For me personally Win 10 Home is a No-Go and I would want Pro. So I will further use Win 7 and not update my old Vaio notebook.

My main music and photo PC is now a Mac and I didn't regret it. But that is a personal decision and I don't want to convince anyone to follow me. As I said, I wanted to warn everybody to do their homework, before they upgrade and might regret it later.



It's not Windows 7 Home, that enforces updates, it will come with Windows 10 Home as a new "feature". But it's only the Home edition. The Pro & Enterprise editions will behave like Win 7 & 8 regarding Windows Update.
I strongly suggest for all Windows 10 tests to use an inexpensive VM like the Oracle Virtual Box and then Install the win 10 ISO from a USB flaskey.

This way you won't geopardize your local installation.

Hint: configure at least 4GB of RAM for Win10 VM for better results
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Old 06-13-2015, 05:21 AM   #78
paulheu
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Originally Posted by PauloF View Post
I strongly suggest for all Windows 10 tests to use an inexpensive VM like the Oracle Virtual Box and then Install the win 10 ISO from a USB flaskey.
Unless you run a fairly powerful PC this will not come close to an accurate 'test'. Virtualbox is free for a reason and while it's decent it's no comparison to an actual install.

If you run Windows 8.1 pro or better on an UEFI based PC you can just create a virtual HD, mount it and install Windows 10 on that, or IMO even better image your current system partition to a virtual drive, install Windows 10 Insider Preview and add the virtual drive as boot partition so you can double boot without the need to have a physical extra HDD or partition. the latter would also work if you now run windows 7

That way you can start to work with and build your Windows 10 environment while keeping a windows 8.1 (or 7) fallback.

At this point Windows 10 is IMO stable enough to run as a main OS with the exception of possibly some drivers issues. Personally, I have been o 10 since the first technical preview and have not had a reason to switch back.
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Old 06-13-2015, 10:13 AM   #79
PauloF
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulheu View Post
Unless you run a fairly powerful PC this will not come close to an accurate 'test'. Virtualbox is free for a reason and while it's decent it's no comparison to an actual install.

If you run Windows 8.1 pro or better on an UEFI based PC you can just create a virtual HD, mount it and install Windows 10 on that, or IMO even better image your current system partition to a virtual drive, install Windows 10 Insider Preview and add the virtual drive as boot partition so you can double boot without the need to have a physical extra HDD or partition. the latter would also work if you now run windows 7

That way you can start to work with and build your Windows 10 environment while keeping a windows 8.1 (or 7) fallback.

At this point Windows 10 is IMO stable enough to run as a main OS with the exception of possibly some drivers issues. Personally, I have been o 10 since the first technical preview and have not had a reason to switch back.
I agree with you on the computer resources needed to run properly a VM.
But it is a good and easy way to get used to Windows 10 without interfering with the machine.

In fact I'm using VMs to run Win10 from a Mac and from a Windows 7 computers, but the Mac is a i5 dual core, 8 GB, 128GB SSD and the PC is a quad-core i7, 16GB, 256GB SSD, perfectly capable to run the native OS + a couple of VMs without any problem.
But again, I agree that on an average machine that would not be a good experience and the best way is to do as you said.
+1

Cheers,
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Old 06-24-2015, 10:59 AM   #80
DarkStar
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How big is the W10 download?

It looks as though it is done automatically, so I cannot control the timing. Here, if I exceed my monthly bandwidth limit, I get to pay my ISP an extra £1.20 per GB :shock:
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