Go Back   Cockos Incorporated Forums > REAPER Forums > MIDI Hardware, Control Surfaces, and OSC

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-10-2018, 04:25 PM   #41
cyrano
Human being with feelings
 
cyrano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Belgium
Posts: 4,587
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by azslow3 View Post
Apple lovers are not looking for cheap solutions in general, they like expensive staff, with 1 year warranty and declared obsolete/incompatible after 2-3 years. Free 40kb program for $1 device which will work next 10-20 years is "no go" by design
You clearly don't know many Apple users.

I still support a couple of writers that use LocalTalk wiring with a LaserWriter. They have only one fairly modern Mac, used exclusively for internet. Not for creative writing. And I installed a system 9 Mac for a friend to use one plugin for mastering not too long ago. There are many Mac owners out there that kept their old machines and these last seemingly forever.

DOS, otoh has one big problem: no hardware left that is able to connect to the machines that need it. Sure, emulation is easy. But nothing is available if you need a parallel port that supports bit-banging, or an ISA extension card. Not even with manufacturers of industrial PC's that still have ISA slots. And they'll readily admit it, that compatibility only exists on paper.

Maybe your image got blurred by the iOS crowd...
__________________
“It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity” Albert Einstein
cyrano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2018, 03:16 AM   #42
azslow3
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
Posts: 710
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyrano View Post
You clearly don't know many Apple users.
From the perspective you describe, yes. Apple users I know are from "new generation" only. The experiment I have mentioned switched to Linux/Windows for its last several years, but that was more then 10 years ago...

Quote:
I still support a couple of writers that use LocalTalk wiring with a LaserWriter. They have only one fairly modern Mac, used exclusively for internet. Not for creative writing. And I installed a system 9 Mac for a friend to use one plugin for mastering not too long ago. There are many Mac owners out there that kept their old machines and these last seemingly forever.
Yes, these was durable. I also still have MacBook from 2000, and it still boots fine (Debian)
The same I can say about PCs. Pentium II also boots fine. Can not say the same about other PCs, till I have decided to use motherboards explicitly marked as durable.
But my recent experience is different, I observe x10 more normal notebooks but the number of failed Apples is almost the same. Several after 1.1 year (bad luck?).

Quote:
DOS, otoh has one big problem: no hardware left that is able to connect to the machines that need it. Sure, emulation is easy. But nothing is available if you need a parallel port that supports bit-banging, or an ISA extension card. Not even with manufacturers of industrial PC's that still have ISA slots. And they'll readily admit it, that compatibility only exists on paper.
I must admit I was not working with PC dedicated hardware. The science use modular platforms like VME. So upgrade is as easy as replacing the controller board. Some equipment is serial or CAN. Sure, with ISA that can be problematic.
azslow3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2018, 04:01 AM   #43
cyrano
Human being with feelings
 
cyrano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Belgium
Posts: 4,587
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by azslow3 View Post
From the perspective you describe, yes. Apple users I know are from "new generation" only...
That's what I figured. But that's not limited to Apple users. Some phone users I know, buy four or five phones per year. And they tend to loose more when they resell their previous one than iphone users...

Me too, I'd like to see a Mac version. But I know how much work is involved, so I won't beg for it

Besides, I have 17 motorised faders and several other controls lined up for connection to a MidiBox...
__________________
“It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity” Albert Einstein
cyrano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2018, 03:35 AM   #44
azslow3
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
Posts: 710
Default

I have tested the conference system for the first time:
* a mouse as a generic controller, used to switch modes by OSC throw special utility (right top screen-shot). As a reminder, REAPER csurf extension with this technology is linked in the first post
* ESP8266 based display, mode readout throw WiFi+OSC. The sketch will be published on GitHub, can be useful for someone to show mixer/REAPER status. The LED panel is surprising good visible, even with limited luminance (as you can see on the photo, I power the display from mixer USB).

The system itself sounds promising so far, still have to tune mics type/positions/caves and DM parameters
Attached Images
File Type: jpg PIOnAirPhoto_small.jpg (62.0 KB, 290 views)
azslow3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2018, 08:43 AM   #45
azslow3
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
Posts: 710
Default

I have added computer keyboards support. 100 buttons for any actions, does not interfere with normal keyboard(s), not Windows focus dependent, cost almost nothing.
azslow3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2018, 05:50 PM   #46
shady
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 87
Default

bump hidden gem

also, have you gotten this to work for parameter modulation. ideally i could link this up with ReaLearn.

Last edited by shady; 11-13-2018 at 07:56 PM.
shady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2018, 05:19 AM   #47
azslow3
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
Posts: 710
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shady View Post
bump hidden gem

also, have your gotten this to work for parameter modulation. ideally i could link this up with ReaLearn.
Hidden gem, LOL
Because of you bump, I have noticed that previously uploaded version is not working at all...
But I have added a new flag now, sou you can use it with ReaLearn.
Note that all other flags still have effect, so f.e. you can still assign pressed wheel to next/previous track actions (this time in ReaLearn) and still get audition for changed track.
azslow3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2018, 03:04 AM   #48
martifingers
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,732
Default

Another view of Apple:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKJjLwMUPJI
martifingers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2018, 06:15 AM   #49
cyrano
Human being with feelings
 
cyrano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Belgium
Posts: 4,587
Default

LOL

That about sums it up, yeah.
__________________
“It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity” Albert Einstein
cyrano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2018, 02:05 PM   #50
azslow3
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
Posts: 710
Default

I do not think someone who is looking for a MIDI controller will ever realize the subject of this thread, till it is moved into "MIDI Hardware, Control Surfaces, and OSC "
azslow3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2019, 06:30 PM   #51
shady
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 87
Default

a new subforum!

and I may as well say that I succesfully hooked up my Not A Mouse.. to ReaLearn
__________________
twitch.tv/suprshady trying to stream REAPER stuff.. more than twice a year
shady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2019, 02:44 PM   #52
shady
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 87
Default

azslow, would it be possible to send Not a Keyboard midi to Tracks?
__________________
twitch.tv/suprshady trying to stream REAPER stuff.. more than twice a year
shady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2019, 04:01 PM   #53
azslow3
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
Posts: 710
Default

Not a problem for Not a Keyboard

But please ping me with PM in case you do not see it till the middle of next week. Just in case I forget...
azslow3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2019, 01:39 PM   #54
azslow3
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
Posts: 710
Default

I still want improve some parts (compatibility with particular devices), but current version already can send normal MIDI (or switch with "Escape") from Not a Keyboard.
azslow3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2019, 12:36 AM   #55
shady
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 87
Default

I still don't clearly see a difference in the modes/escape. Each mode gave a combo of MIDI and CC in both Action Menu and Tracks.

However I hooked it up to reaSynth and reassigned my crappy tablet keyboard buttons with Note Mapper and it's just awesome : o
__________________
twitch.tv/suprshady trying to stream REAPER stuff.. more than twice a year
shady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2019, 11:55 PM   #56
azslow3
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
Posts: 710
Default

The different is just in which mode the keyboard is when the REAPER is started (if it works as expected, programs always have bugs...)
azslow3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2019, 02:35 PM   #57
superblonde.org
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 789
Default

I was looking for something like a general "key" controller which I could use as either a footpedal or a tabletop unit and quickly concluded that the best solution if I wanted to mod something would be to use a prior-gen videogame controller. cheap when out-of-style, built like a tank, wireless or can be made wireless, & has alllll the controls.

for example, ps2 controller or original wired-nintendo pad

just need to regenerate the signals into midi.


For non-midi-use for example, I imagined physically modding my drum machine to a nintendo gamepad so I could have a wired remote control for it rather than having to access the unit itself. The remote could be mounted on a mic stand to switch beats. which would have helped my live performances run smoother. this type of wired mod would be mostly straightforward.


but as for the Original Post, I would think a trackball unit would be much better than a mouse. incidentally: optical mouse chips are very interesting and dirt cheap
superblonde.org is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2019, 11:47 PM   #58
azslow3
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
Posts: 710
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by superblonde.org View Post
I was looking for something like a general "key" controller which I could use as either a footpedal or a tabletop unit and quickly concluded that the best solution if I wanted to mod something would be to use a prior-gen videogame controller. cheap when out-of-style, built like a tank, wireless or can be made wireless, & has alllll the controls.

for example, ps2 controller or original wired-nintendo pad

just need to regenerate the signals into midi.
As long as the device is recognized by OS as a "Game controller" (many are), it can be used as a MIDI controller in REAPER. This feature is "build in".

Quote:
but as for the Original Post, I would think a trackball unit would be much better than a mouse. incidentally: optical mouse chips are very interesting and dirt cheap
It is heavy, should be strictly in "controls up" position and let be realistic, it is not easy to operate when you play.

I am not sure I understand the intention of your post. Joysticks, Gamepads and (with this extension) computer Keyboard and Mouse are usable as a MIDI controller in REAPER. I mean not theoretically, but practically.

F.e. I have used attached to the side of e-drum module mouse for a while. As a transport control.
azslow3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2019, 01:18 PM   #59
superblonde.org
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 789
Default

Overall I like the mouse idea, because re-using spare equipment is good.

The obstacle I was trying to solve (altho I am not performing recently) is that I wanted the same convenient button-unit for both recording/practice and live performance. so, that might mean, that it would need to generate midi signals to plug into a midi-in on a pedalboard, and also, in a home studio setup, be for os/reaper use. So, in this case, a USB mouse would be used as the not-a-mouse with computer+reaper but then, for performance, what ? Unless a hardware mod is made to the mouse to give it an output in which to wire to a pedalboard or etc.

I guess that kind of crossover just is not common. Performers have pedalboards (nearly always foot control, not hand control). and then they have a completely different setup for studio use. alternatively, they go the route like pipeline does, and brings the complete (or miniaturized) studio setup to the performance to use as the performance unit.

Really I'm only talking about a few separate buttons like,

advance ("+")
previous ("-")
play/stop (">")
tempo up ("^")
tempo down ("v")

As a related note, most of the existing products, foot controls, are just not always great, because the stage gets too crowded and if performing a short set, it is troublesome to connect & arrange everything on the floor. And in the studio, desk-space is at a premium too. In these cases it would seem to be much better to have hand-controllers mounted on a portable stand (mic stand). Which is why this mouse idea is good.
superblonde.org is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2019, 07:41 PM   #60
shady
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 87
Default

oh and if anyone is getting errors on load, just uncheck the option Warn when errors opening surface MIDI devices in Control/OSC/web (bc my Not a Keyboard is not normally plugged in)
__________________
twitch.tv/suprshady trying to stream REAPER stuff.. more than twice a year
shady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2019, 06:03 AM   #61
azslow3
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
Posts: 710
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shady View Post
oh and if anyone is getting errors on load, just uncheck the option Warn when errors opening surface MIDI devices in Control/OSC/web (bc my Not a Keyboard is not normally plugged in)
May be I just to stop reporting it has problems with IO... The extension internally tries to be "plug&play" (it reacts on connects/disconnects during running).
azslow3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2019, 06:19 AM   #62
azslow3
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
Posts: 710
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by superblonde.org View Post
The obstacle I was trying to solve (altho I am not performing recently) is that I wanted the same convenient button-unit for both recording/practice and live performance. so, that might mean, that it would need to generate midi signals to plug into a midi-in on a pedalboard, and also, in a home studio setup, be for os/reaper use. So, in this case, a USB mouse would be used as the not-a-mouse with computer+reaper but then, for performance, what ? Unless a hardware mod is made to the mouse to give it an output in which to wire to a pedalboard or etc.
Do you mean wireless pedalboard which is not originally wireless? Then some hardware has to be modified (till the pedalboard is MIDI and has own power, in this case there are some "MIDI over BT" commercial dongles). In this case, simply soldering pedal buttons to mouse buttons can be the simplest (and cheapest) mod.

For all other cases I do not see the reason. Even in one place the same commands can be executed with Not a Mouse, pedals and other controllers in parallel. In my small room I have up to 5(!) different devices to hit "play" (midi controller, 2 keyboards with buttons, left pedal on DP and "Not a mouse"). Just because I do not want stand up nor move controllers between instruments. I still do not have wireless not a mouse, but with current version supporting logitech that is rather tempting. Good logitech mouse can work monthes without re-charging. Not wired and not powered transport controller working the whole season
azslow3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2019, 06:49 AM   #63
TonE
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Reaper HAS send control via midi !!!
Posts: 1,847
Default

First I like your ideas and the fact you are sharing it with us, thanks a lot and respects!

Did not try your tool yet, now, as far as I understood AZ not can make a qwerty keyboard to the os appear as a game controller? And only for windows but not linux for example? I am mainly playing around in wine anyway, so it should be testable here?

A few questions:
- Can it recognize normal usb qwerty keyboards?
- If yes, how many usb qwerty keyboards of same brand, plugged in at the same time, e.g. 2 or 3 can AZ not recognize? Would they be game controller 1..3?

I would like to test this scenario, as qwerty keyboards are my favourite midi controller devices, they have lots of buttons, we have even the option of getting high quality mechanical buttons, plus since a few years even with rgb led support! Best of them so far Corsair products, why, because there is a non-official command line rgb application for them:
https://github.com/ckb-next/ckb-next

Supported hardware list:
https://github.com/ckb-next/ckb-next...orted-Hardware

If your tool would work as described above with Reaper, that would be phenomenal, especially when combined with such an rgb device. And not to forget sendmidi and receivemidi:
https://github.com/gbevin/ReceiveMIDI
https://github.com/gbevin/SendMIDI
Check the examples for ReceiveMidi, how any received midi events, e.g. midi notes, can trigger any script! Those could be rgb led controling commands, for example, plus anything else.
PHP Code:
receivemidi dev linnstrument
  js 
"if (MIDI.isNoteOn()) Util.command('/path/to/test.sh ' + MIDI.noteNumber());" 

My favourite game controller to midi or better OSC tool is so far joyosc:
https://github.com/danomatika/joyosc or
http://docs.danomatika.com/releases/joyosc/
I used this to convert X360 game controllers to osc controllers for Reaper and it works, see https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=206796
and you should know this thread already.

AZ..not, sendmidi, receivemidi, joyosc, ckb-next, rgb qwerty, midi, osc, reaper, keykit, autohotkey, sequetron and its 64 cc macros
X360, mouse, 3D mouse like space navigator (this is the only one I guess)
oh I forgot there is even Kinect, https://archive.codeplex.com/?p=kinectmidicontroller

There you go! A funny toolset to play with. Especially when you start taking some devices apart and start soldering.

Last edited by TonE; 09-27-2019 at 07:02 AM.
TonE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2019, 09:03 AM   #64
TonE
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Reaper HAS send control via midi !!!
Posts: 1,847
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by azslow3 View Post
I just hope someone who needs my staff can find it. People are discussing Tranzport, Faderport, X-Touch One, Web and OSC apps. May be some of them, as myself, do not really need the "full power" of traditional surface solutions and can profit from the size, price, connectivity and battery live of a mouse. I know many people use wireless computer keyboards for that, mouse is just a smaller alternative (and it has an encoder...). The problem is that a mouse, unlike keyboards, with default behavior is useless without display. "Not a Mouse" void that limitation.

Back in time, MIDI key bindings in Cakewalk was used. That approach allowed to share 25-88 keys with the same number of control buttons. So I have made the same for REAPER and I still think that is a good idea for DP. But I have found that I am completely alone with such opinion. May be I am also alone with my opinion about mouse. And I see no problem to be not in the "main stream"
Not a mouse would allow easily creating a "Big Knob" device. Especially if you have access to some printers be it plastic, wooden or metal. We buy and throw away so many packages, there should be something looking like a knob to be used here as well. Or the next time you see a pile of old electronic garbage, you could go and collect any knobs you see there.

The midi approach would have another advantage, if your midi device allows easy switching of midi channels, you could multiply your input space with 16, each midi channel could be a "mode" with a certain purpose. What I would like is using the lowest and highest octaves only for control purposes, as those are usually less used musically. Then, again differentiating between white and black keys. Two black keys could do midi channel - and +, like cis=chan- and dis=chan+, and the other three black keys could switch directly into some mode for example. Using midi input for mapping would be more powerful if chords would be recognized and trigger different actions.

Or even in its simplest form AZ not a keyboard could use F1..F12 for switching among 12 midi channels, then the 4x10 matrix below would trigger something. Imagine triggering normal commands, I mean shell scripts, you have space for 12 * 40 = 480 scripts. Under direct control. Via Not a keyboard, triggering midi, via receivemidi triggering scripts. Many very often used tasks would be accessible directly. Like switching workspaces, apps, making current window transparent/untransparent to name a few.

Last edited by TonE; 09-27-2019 at 09:15 AM.
TonE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2019, 10:25 AM   #65
TonE
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Reaper HAS send control via midi !!!
Posts: 1,847
Default

Zadig seems not to work in wine.
Device shows only 'None' in Reaper.

Last edited by TonE; 09-27-2019 at 10:40 AM.
TonE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2019, 04:42 PM   #66
azslow3
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
Posts: 710
Default

"AZ not a..." does not make anything a game controller. It works with mouse or keyboard as with raw HID device. It does that directly, without HID device driver (Microsoft allows access HID devices throw the driver, but not mouse or keyboard. They explain that by some security concerns, which are hard to understand... in fact for accessibility purpose it is possible intercept and inject mouse/keyboard commands on higher level...).

"AZ not a..." works throw WinUSB (original Microsoft) driver. Zadig is required to assign that driver to any USB device. Since Windows 8 it is no longer possible without tricking certificate system (the driver itself is from Microsoft, so perfectly signed. But the INSTALLATION files (just a text file to specify that this device can be used with this driver) also has to be signed. That in general has created many problems for some devices. At Windows 7 time upwards, Microsoft has proposed to put "upper supported version" into installation files. After that they have "jumped" in version number, so original (signed) files no longer work. Many producers took an opportunity to "obsolete" related devices (without any reason, the driver still works but the installation returns "wrong version"). It is a joke, many "Windows 7" M-Audio interfaces are "obsolete", while much older devices still work under Windows 10 without any tricks... Some Roland interfaces, while having exactly the same Edirol hardware as can be seen in Linux drivers, are also "obsolete".

Wine does not officially emulate WinUSB driver. I have found one patch, but I could not get it work.

Under Windows the number of keyboards/mouses used such way is not limited. But "AZ Not" is not well tested with many devices in parallel (I have shortly tested 2 mouses + 2 keyboards and that was working).
azslow3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2019, 01:56 AM   #67
TonE
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Reaper HAS send control via midi !!!
Posts: 1,847
Default

If you find any tricks or solutions for wine or directly for linux sharing it here would be cool, thanks again. Maybe a similar technique using other tools would be also possible in linux.
TonE is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.