Consolidate function?

[pipelineaudio]

We were talking about different export rendering type schemes. I think one that would be good, would be consolidate.

Maybe have these switches for options

1. Add channel settings? (insert fx, fader and pan, it would be a temporary freeze type solution as well)

2. Add event settings? (normalize, speed, xfades etc)

3. Which tracks?

4. Which region? (select loop etc..)

5. What format?

6. Autoreplace existing events with new render?

I think I have hit the "edit limit" in Reaper, that also appears in other apps, it started to get a bit sticky after four billion splits and xfades, this option, especially the autoreplace one would really free up some peace of mind

[pipelineaudio]

OK Ive definitely nailed the edit limit in this project.

It seems very likely to me that the trouble starts, just like in other apps, when the project file becomes HUGE

At 128kb this project makes no trouble at all. However with all these edits, its reached 1 meg and more...

no media here but here is the project file

I believe there should be a way, that you could do the consolidate, and then the file should shrink back down, since the edits are gone.

I think this is a very important issue for use as an editor

[pipelineaudio]

In order to really shrink the thing back down, we might need an unused media tosser outer as well. Not takes mind you

[Justin]

It's fine here, without media, but then again I have an athlon64x2

-Justin

[pipelineaudio]

Yeah just you wait buddy! I got my HD's in today, still only got one stick of ram though !@@##$@%$

I am telling you though, this becomes a HUGE issue, and it is a stumbling block on all the apps. Noone wanted to deal with it before, and weve alweays had to sit and render by hand to take care of it.

Even a basic type of consolidation, just the event operations like fade, event trim handles and normalize and speed, with the ability to autoreplace the tracks that it was on would JUMP the happiness factor here

[pipelineaudio]

Im thinking this would mae an awesome export option as well, especially with an export to folder, where you chose the folder!

[Justin]

OK so you want something that, on each selected track, will:

+ render all items in the track to one .wav, without FX or envelopes enabled, just fades/item volume adjustments/etc.

+ replace all items in the track with that one .wav.

right?

-Justin

[pipelineaudio]

Originally Posted by Justin

OK so you want something that, on each selected track, will:

+ render all items in the track to one .wav, without FX or envelopes enabled, just fades/item volume adjustments/etc.

+ replace all items in the track with that one .wav.

right?

-Justin

Yeah, in its most basic form, it would do just the item/event/object whatever you call them, with any item operation included. Fades, speed, item volume handles, normalize.

It would seem as if that channel was soloed with the console COMPLETELY zeroed out, no channel fx, no channel fader, no channel pan

It would feel as if the entire track's events were glued together as they were. A snapshot.

Then put the new rendered track on the channel where the old stuff was

After that there would need to be a way, which we will need sooner or later anyway, to remobe unused media from project ( unless thats already done)

Later on, if you add more functionality, you could make channel operation options and end up with a severely cool export system

But for now, at least the consolidate feature would kickass, really save my ass!

Youve already gone above and beyond with this app in so many ways...some of us have been STEWING on ideas for years, they just werent being listened to. So thank you very much

[Justin]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

Yeah, in its most basic form, it would do just the item/event/object whatever you call them, with any item operation included. Fades, speed, item volume handles, normalize.

It would seem as if that channel was soloed with the console COMPLETELY zeroed out, no channel fx, no channel fader, no channel pan

It would feel as if the entire track's events were glued together as they were. A snapshot.

Then put the new rendered track on the channel where the old stuff was

After that there would need to be a way, which we will need sooner or later anyway, to remobe unused media from project ( unless thats already done)

Later on, if you add more functionality, you could make channel operation options and end up with a severely cool export system

But for now, at least the consolidate feature would kickass, really save my ass!

Youve already gone above and beyond with this app in so many ways...some of us have been STEWING on ideas for years, they just werent being listened to. So thank you very much

Right now if media isnt' referenced anywhere in the project, it isn't in the project. You can use the menu item to clean the directory up if you want to remove the actual files.

Having said that, I'm spending some time to improve the user experience with that project you posted. A lot of it is in the undo system. I think I can get it to be a lot smoother. Going to try out on the fly compression of undo data (since that 1mb project compresses down to <100kb). With a 1mb project, having a mere 25-30 undo levels (by default anyway) is so little. Did you crank up the max undo memory while you were working on that project? Which makes me think, having undo/redo support at all would be a nice option...

-Justin

[pipelineaudio]

I dont think I ever touched or found a way to change undo memory. One thing I do know though, is if I clear the undo history in Vegas, we still get the same penalty. I read about the same deal in Sonar right around the 200k file size is where I start to notice anything, but its like 500k when it becomes uncomfortable.

Am I wrong in thinking the fades and splits themselves add to the problem?

The project I sent I would say is about typical for me.

"Right now if media isnt' referenced anywhere in the project, it isn't in the project."

The consolidate thing would need to delete the files from the project ( not the files themselves) in order to get an improvement though right?

[Justin]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

I dont think I ever touched or found a way to change undo memory. One thing I do know though, is if I clear the undo history in Vegas, we still get the same penalty. I read about the same deal in Sonar right around the 200k file size is where I start to notice anything, but its like 500k when it becomes uncomfortable.

Am I wrong in thinking the fades and splits themselves add to the problem?

The project I sent I would say is about typical for me.

"Right now if media isnt' referenced anywhere in the project, it isn't in the project."

The consolidate thing would need to delete the files from the project ( not the files themselves) in order to get an improvement though right?

To answer your question, yes it would not need to delete the files themselves from disk, rather just their references (specifically, their THOUSANDS of references) from the project.


There's no real reason why having fades should make a project less workable. Sure, it might require more CPU when playing back (though not that much). But you should still be able to go edit things without problem/slowdown. Splits are a different story. The main issues that I'm seeing are:

Having tons of splits means you have tons more objects, each one which opens a copy of the .wav file (even though it is referencing the same file, this is done so that if its playing in multiple places at once, it can play without penalties of tons of seeking). There may be a smart way of detecting how many copies of a file open are needed (i.e. in general 2-3 copies should be enough, but having it detect would be neat), and using a smaller amount. Having tons of open files (even if they are largely the same files) means more memory and requires more work from the OS. We already do some smartness for peaks, which helps..

All of these objects' states need to be saved for the undo/redo system. This is the biggy, as you have noticed, it corresponds to the project size. I've already tonight (after optimizing a lot of drawing code) optimized the way the undo system deals with memory, to speed it up. I think it's slightly better, though still has a way to go.

The reason I mention compression for the undo states is that it shouldn't hurt performance too much, and will save a ton of memory (i.e. give you 10x the undo states for a given project and undo memory use). I will make it an option, of course, that is if it ends up being usably fast (which it should).

Anyway, I'm gonna get to bed. Hopefully I should have some things that will make your editing of that project more responsive, for 0.63..

-J

[pipelineaudio]

cool beans!

FWIW there are some many other reasons for the consolidate functions as well

Exports for sure

But opening as a single file into an external editor is certainly a biggie!

[Travis]

I definately second the request for an export of the project into seperate continuous tracks. It's the foolproof solution for all compatiblity issues and archiving.

On the Radar that is the usual export/import format. When you export they give you the option to "Fill Silence" which renders silence inbetween the edits to give you a continous file.

[bullshark]

What about the render single track I suggested here:
http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=362

Wouldn't it solve the problem?

Say you're editing a drum track, once you're done select the track, click export (or render or whatever the function is called) choose the option "selected track only", then "export in the project directory", then "replace track".

Looks like it would solve that particular problem.

I do it all the time with Tracktion, when I'm done editing and ready to start mixing I render and replace all tracks, save the project under a new name ("project name_mixdown" usually) so that all I have to worry about is the mix.

So, in the render dialog you woukld have those options added (check mark type of things) to what's in there now:

"selected track only"
"bypass FX"
"choose a directory" (with a browse function)
"use the project directory"
"add on a new track" (greyed out unless the first option is selected)
"replace track"(greyed out unless the first option is selected, and mutually exclusive to the one above, of course)

By default it would process insert FX but not sends.

[pipelineaudio]

Yes bullshark, we are talking about the same thing pretty much

[fluffy]

Something along the same lines, a feature in Samplitude, is "Multitrack Bounce". In the render dialog, You have an option for "Multitrack Bounce" which renders each track to a seperate wave file (or whatever format chosen) with FX etc. applied.

Incredibly handy and quick for sharing projects amongst different apps.

[jester700]

Originally Posted by fluffy

Something along the same lines, a feature in Samplitude, is "Multitrack Bounce". In the render dialog, You have an option for "Multitrack Bounce" which renders each track to a seperate wave file (or whatever format chosen) with FX etc. applied.

Incredibly handy and quick for sharing projects amongst different apps.

Now THAT is a cool feature. In reaper, I don't see the big deal in soloing & rendering an individual track, then using that as the new track. But to do that at once on all tracks - VERY cool trick.

[malcolmj]

Originally Posted by fluffy

Something along the same lines, a feature in Samplitude, is "Multitrack Bounce".

... or FL Studio's "render individual tracks". You get a stereo WAV of the Master, and an individual WAV of each mixer track.

[fluffy]

Originally Posted by malcolmj

You get a stereo WAV of the Master, and an individual WAV of each mixer track.

That IS cool !