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Old 08-26-2018, 11:24 AM   #1
paat
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Default Support more than 64 channels of output from VST3 plugins

Vienna Ensemble Pro can be configured with a "virtually unlimited" number of outputs. This is useful for setting up a single instrument with hundreds of instruments, and routing each one to their own channel in REAPER.

However, REAPER supports VST multiple outputs by means of its channel routing – which is currently limited to 64 channels per track.

I would like to see REAPER support more than 64 channels of VST audio. Two ideas I have for that are:

1. Increase the maximum number of channels for tracks (why not unlimited?)
2. Route VST outputs directly to tracks, bypassing the multi-channel setup completely

I am solely interested in the end result of using more than 64 channels of VST output, so whatever way accomplishes that is fine with me.
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Old 08-26-2018, 12:07 PM   #2
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Out of curiosity, just because I can't find any mention of it anywhere, what's the maximum channel count you can get away with in other DAWs?

I've always been under the impression that Reaper was way ahead of the pack in this department.

+1 anyway though.
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Old 12-11-2018, 10:40 AM   #3
Michael Firmont
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+1 as well!

I am prepping Reaper since several days and was close to start working in Reaper now, but now I saw that Reaper is limited with 64 outputs. It's not usable for me this way So sad! I would need at least 250 Outs for my VEP sessions, please update this issue!

I hope this is possible in any way, I was really looking forward to switching from Cubase to Reaper....
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Old 12-11-2018, 12:42 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paat View Post
1. Increase the maximum number of channels for tracks (why not unlimited?)
Because of possible performance hit. Things may run more efficiently if the maximum number of channels is at some set limit. But this is speculative, the overall impact might as well be pretty minimal if the channel count is allowed to be dynamic.
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Old 12-14-2018, 10:45 AM   #5
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You don't need a VEP instance per 16 channels of MIDI.

If you're using VST3 (which REAPER supports) then you can route MIDI to any of VEP's 16 MIDI ports – so you have 16x16 = 256 MIDI channels in a single VEP instance.

If you're using VST2, then there's a special Vienna plugin called "Vienna Ensemble Port" or something like that, that lets you select which VEP port to send MIDI to.
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Old 12-15-2018, 03:48 PM   #6
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Thank you paat

256 is good even if sometimes I need more (without adding new VEP instances)
Is there a way to do that?

Last edited by hotzmarino; 12-15-2018 at 04:00 PM.
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Old 12-15-2018, 05:23 PM   #7
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Not that I know of, someone in VSL forum may know though.
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Old 12-16-2018, 12:43 AM   #8
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JFC!!! I mean, do what ya gotta do, but are actually telling me that you move all 250 faders often enough not to just adjust whichever parameter in the VSTi does the same thing?!?
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Old 12-16-2018, 04:06 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
JFC!!! I mean, do what ya gotta do, but are actually telling me that you move all 250 faders often enough not to just adjust whichever parameter in the VSTi does the same thing?!?
Sorry to not understand well your question ( english is not my mother language).
When I work with big templates 256 is good enough for quite the majority of projects.
But, sometimes, I have to deal with a lot of articulations, sounds layering and it is necessary to have a huge number of track.
(I do not move faders but surely I write all the necessary midi controls).
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Old 12-20-2018, 06:41 AM   #10
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Still struggeling as well...

I changed my hole VEP6 setup to 64 Outputs max each instances (now I have 14 of those...) but the next fight is there...

I can't adress the instruments, just the first (1 - 1, 1 - 2, etc) is working, all the following ones ( 2 - all, 3 - all, ----) are not working at all. Can't help myself with this
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Old 12-20-2018, 06:53 AM   #11
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You need to map MIDI busses to VST3 MIDI ports, the option for that is there when you right click the in/out button in top right of the plugin window, and only if you use VST3 plugin for VEPro.
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Old 12-20-2018, 07:01 AM   #12
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THANK you so much, seriously... I would have never ever found this...

THis also solved another issue... Perfect!
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Old 07-09-2019, 05:07 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
You need to map MIDI busses to VST3 MIDI ports, the option for that is there when you right click the in/out button in top right of the plugin window, and only if you use VST3 plugin for VEPro.
Thank you Evil Dragon!
I've also found this:

https://www.vsl.co.at/community/post...nce#post285538

Last edited by hotzmarino; 07-19-2019 at 05:05 AM.
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Old 02-10-2020, 07:04 PM   #14
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Would definitely like to voice my desire for more than 64 channel output support on VST3s! Just like the OP, I'm using Vienna Ensemble Pro (now on version 7) which supports arbitrarily large channel output for my big ole orchestral template. Of course, I can have multiple VEP instances, but that makes things a little annoying when it comes to maximizing performance, as VEP allocates cores per instance and balancing that can be a hassle (and having to do that on the fly is not really feasible in something that should be a template).
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Old 02-27-2020, 01:07 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lokasenna View Post
Out of curiosity, just because I can't find any mention of it anywhere, what's the maximum channel count you can get away with in other DAWs?

I've always been under the impression that Reaper was way ahead of the pack in this department.

+1 anyway though.
- Pyramix up to 384, depening on the hardware !
- Ardour 100
- Sequoia and Podium only 32 ;-)

So yes, Reaper is definitely in the top 3...
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Old 02-27-2020, 01:13 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sklathill View Post
Would definitely like to voice my desire for more than 64 channel output support on VST3s!
The problem is that it would need a complete update of the busses, and if it has not been thought at the begining, it may be a big work... for only a few people :-(

I am waiting for this since several years for a different reason (multichannel works) and I have actually to do weird things when I need more than 64, but I am afraid that it will take some time before there is a convenient solution.
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Old 12-21-2020, 04:49 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jm duchenne View Post
The problem is that it would need a complete update of the busses, and if it has not been thought at the begining, it may be a big work... for only a few people :-(

I am waiting for this since several years for a different reason (multichannel works) and I have actually to do weird things when I need more than 64, but I am afraid that it will take some time before there is a convenient solution.
This would be for more than 'a few people'.

Would you please explain what 'weird things' you have to do to bypass the current 64 audio return limit in reaper.

Last edited by GeneralMidi; 12-21-2020 at 04:56 AM.
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Old 12-21-2020, 11:32 AM   #18
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I learned that the VE VST3 provides 48 midi "ports" (i.e. 768 Midi channels) and 500 Audio channels in a single plugin, while Reaper's VST3 suppor only can do 16 midi buses (each routed to one of the plugin's "ports") (i.e. 256 Midi channels) and 64 audio channels per track.

Is 768 / 500 channels in a single track really reasonable ?
IMHO it would be more convenient to use multiple tracks for this (if VE does allow this).

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 12-21-2020 at 01:22 PM.
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Old 12-21-2020, 12:37 PM   #19
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Vepro assigns cpu threads per instance. It's uneconomical to have hundreds of instances. Each instance holds up to 768 'tracks' (let's just think of it like that for now). These are fully loaded and ready to go. Kontakt instruments can also be purged provided ssd drives are used. So it's not uncommon for multiple woodwind libraries, multiple brass libraries, thousands of solo instruments, guitars, ethnic instruments, synths, custom sample libraries, epic percussion, orchestral percussion etc to be loaded up and distributed across vepro instances.

Why do this? All you have to do is add a track to your daw, route the midi to the correct port of the loaded instrument in vepro, hook up the return audio channel, set up your reverb sends etc and you have an 'always on' instrument routed to a dedicated return channel.

Why do this? Instant auditioning. Having a template of 2000 tracks or using track templates achieves the same result. Instant access to an instrument without waiting for load times, naming, routing,reverb sends etc.

Film composers often have an idea of what sound they're after, but then need to 'sift' their libraries searching for what 'fits'. What blends. What works. Looking for inspiration.

This is why people have been asking for reaper to please allow full access to the vst3 48 midi port specification, and to further allow a vst3 instrument to return more than 64 audio channels. Steinberg has stated that the vst3 spec allows unconnected audio channels to not use any CPU cycles. So the argument that these channels add cpu overhead is incorrect.

Edit: see here, specifically activating/deactivating busses

https://www.steinberg.net/en/company...gies/vst3.html


It's my personal opinion that many will leave cubase and their pricey upgrades and unfixed and buggy features (expression maps anyone?) for reaper if they are able to work in the way that suits them.

Last edited by GeneralMidi; 12-21-2020 at 12:42 PM.
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Old 12-23-2020, 02:19 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralMidi View Post
Would you please explain what 'weird things' you have to do to bypass the current 64 audio return limit in reaper.
It depends on the projects, but as my working and monitoring system is done on 70 channels (67.3) I have to divide my channels on two buses for the 6 channels which cannot pass on the Master and the MonitoringFX section.
I also need to separate the BassManagement on these two buses.

For plugins and audio files, it complicates things a lot, because I often need to use two tracks for a single sound, with the same plugin duplicated on each, with the channels shifted accordingly. For automations I have to send MIDI sequences to the two occurrences of these plugins.

In a project for the VirginiaTech "Cube" in 124.4, I used my 128 channel plugins in Bidule connected to track pairs in Reaper via two ReaRoute 64 channel buses.
With a maximum of 256 ReaRoute channels it also limits the number of sends and returns ...
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Old 12-23-2020, 04:16 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralMidi View Post
Steinberg has stated that the vst3 spec allows unconnected audio channels to not use any CPU cycles. So the argument that these channels add cpu overhead is incorrect.
I don't know if it works like this for every VST3 plugins, but at least it is the case with MeldaProductions and most of my Acousmodules.

MeldaProductions plugins can be set to 64 channels (ambisonics 7th order) but they process only the channels they receive according Reaper's bus setting.
On the other hand, in my tests, four 16 channels instances use of course a little more RAM than one 64 channels, but for the CPU as reported by Reaper it is exactly the same...
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Old 12-23-2020, 04:17 AM   #22
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Thank you for your reply. Much appreciated. It definitely has given me some ideas, but yeah, hoping for reaper to fully utilise the vst3 spec soon.
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Old 12-23-2020, 04:21 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jm duchenne View Post
I don't know if it works like this for every VST3 plugins, but at least it is the case with MeldaProductions and most of my Acousmodules.
According to that link from Steinberg I posted it seems the vst3 standard specifically is designed to use no cpu overheard for deactivated audio busses. Reaper would not need any extra settings, for if users do not need the extra audio channels, they can remain decativated by default. And if users need 200 or 500, then they know their systems capabilities and can activate what they need.
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Old 12-23-2020, 03:17 PM   #24
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Can you let us know what happens if you run the VE (remote) VST3 in two Reaper tracks at the same time ?

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 12-23-2020 at 11:46 PM.
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Old 12-24-2020, 12:40 AM   #25
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You can only connect to the instance once. So using two tracks to connect to the same instance doesn't work unfortunately.

From my testing over the last days, I can put an event input vst from vepro to get around the midi port issue. You place this before the vepro vsti, and it does in fact allow you to route the midi to the correct place. But unfortunately this is pointless if you can only return 64 audio channels. Yes I could use busses within vepro and return fewer channels, but this workflow is limited... Plus this input event layer was designed to circumvent the limitation of vst 2.4, and is a clunky workaround. In every case that supports vst3, it is recommended to use vst3.

I guess it's Cubase for a bit longer for me...
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Old 12-24-2020, 05:00 AM   #26
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Why not use two instances ?
-Michael
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Old 12-24-2020, 05:10 AM   #27
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That was my point. Usually one would have around 10 instances. One instance for woodwinds. Another for strings. Another for brass. Another for percussion. Another for guitars. Another for synths. And maybe one or two more. The reason for this is Vepro assigns threads per instance. So 100 instances scales terribly. If you have 16 cores and 16 instances, you assign 2 threads per instance. One instance per library just does not work. This only makes sense for those who need their libraries loaded up and ready to go. It's hard for people not with this workflow to imagine why this is important.
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Old 12-24-2020, 08:04 AM   #28
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I don't believe that this is a (or the) problem.

Do you explicitly assign dedicated CPU threads to an instance (not just a count of them ?
Any software I know an at most be toled to use a max number of CPU threads. In most cases it's no problem to assign more CPU threads than the count of CPUs, If there are multiple instances, this is equally - or even more - true.
Of course having the OS switch a CUP between threads comes with a cost (i.,e. the 1st level cache will partly be invalidated). But I don't suppose this is a major problem with audio software.

Of course the best solution would be running the other instance on another box

-Michael
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Old 12-24-2020, 08:11 AM   #29
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Yes, in settings you assign the number of threads per instance.

It's not necessarily an audio application as in, on the slave there is no soundcard, no asio driver etc. It streams back to the master where the audio is then processed.

Vsl have stated that fewer instances per slave is recommended. Of course, the pros have 3 or 4 slave machines. But they literally own every library available.

So with a limit of 64 audio returns to the master, this workflow is unsustainable. Hence the desire for this limit to be lifted.
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Old 12-24-2020, 08:27 AM   #30
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Pure Computer hardware is rather cheap these days.

Last edited by mschnell; 12-24-2020 at 11:53 PM.
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Old 12-24-2020, 09:00 AM   #31
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Unfortunately that is not a solution to the problem. Reaper doesn't support the vst3 standard fully, so just buy more computers because they're cheap.
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Old 12-24-2020, 03:24 PM   #32
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IMHO it's not about Reaper but about bloating a track beyond any limit with midi and audio channels.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 12-24-2020 at 11:52 PM.
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Old 07-21-2021, 01:54 PM   #33
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+1 for this

Totally need the full 48 Midi Outputs, 768 channels for optimizing a massive orchestral template
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Old 07-28-2021, 08:30 PM   #34
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+1 again
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Old 08-05-2021, 02:55 PM   #35
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Hi everyone.

+1 !
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Old 08-08-2021, 03:20 AM   #36
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+1

A second reason for increasing the number of possible channels for a track could be Atmos and similar object-based workflows.
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Old 11-06-2021, 12:57 PM   #37
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Bump.
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Old 04-04-2023, 09:58 AM   #38
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Solved in latest pre. 128 audio channels and 128 midi Buses per track!

A tiny part of me wishes for more than 128 audio channels, but I can live with this now for sure! Thanks amazing devs.
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Old 04-15-2023, 03:06 AM   #39
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So far, effects such as Bidule and ReaEQ and JS can handle 128 channels.

Now, what are we going to do with this huge number of channels?
Wavefield synthesis, large venues, game competitions...
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Old 04-15-2023, 05:16 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ceejay View Post
So far, effects such as Bidule and ReaEQ and JS can handle 128 channels.
???
ReaEQ can handle 2 audio channels.
"Normal" Plugins usually handle 2, some 4 ore some more audio channels.
Just a few (mostly "instrument type") do more.
JSFX effects (obviously) can handle as many channels as the appropriate Reaper version (if the programmer wants them to).

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 04-15-2023 at 10:15 AM.
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