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Old 01-23-2020, 11:16 AM   #41
ashcat_lt
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Originally Posted by fred garvin View Post
Now if guitarists could let go of their 100w tube amps...
Yes. One thing I try to explain to people is that these things (big amps and drums) were meant to fill huge spaces at a time when you couldn’t expect the PA to do it for you. Even 50W is too much for most smaller rooms. Unless of course you’re really trying to punish people.

I played a gig once where I was also sound guy. Was part of a citywide festival and I was part of the crew hauling PAs in and out. It was a tiny room that I had played many times. I made sure we brought in enough power - including a sub - that my “silent stage” could be as loud as the punk bands. I had my live computer there anyway, so I mixed everybody through that. One of the bands had trouble with their Line6 combo amp. It like lost its mind and forgot how to be an amplifier. The way they do. I told him we just plug him into the interface, pull up my amp sim. He crinkled up his nose. I pointed at his amp and said “What do you think that is.” He plugged in, we tweaked a couple settings. They rocked really hard. For my set we had six people (3 guitars, bass, drum triggers, and sample weirdness) smooshed into the little “stage area” and we played no music for 45 minutes and it was absurdly loud and somehow the place was packed the whole time.

A different show at a different festival. We’re the first band of the second day in a campground so I figured my job was to shake everybody out of their tent. I had brought in a couple extra monitors to help cover the kind of big stage. We cranked it up to where it felt about right to me. Got it pounding through the mains. Left the loading door open. In the middle of that set, the sound guy game up to the state and showed me his phone. He had an SPL meter app, and it said 143. I asked him if he had a problem with that. He didn’t.

I do appreciate y’all concern for my hearing. I’ve had some decent ear plugs. They make things weird. It’s not about frequency loss but kind of the disconnect between what I expect and what I get. Honestly, even if I used in-ears (and I’m kind of working that direction) it would still have to be fucking loud at my ears.
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Old 01-23-2020, 11:17 AM   #42
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Well, that sucks and I'm sorry you had that (extremely common, maybe even inevitable) experience. But that attitude will give you a lifetime of enjoying the playing of music. Hey maybe try being the band leader, who lets others be heard and is cool and low key and people want to play with. A band can really be tons of fun.
I'm hoping that the way I plan on recording will kind of lead to that. I've got a bass player and a female vocalist who have committed to recording with me, only really need a drummer, but I've got a drummer on the mainland who records and mixes drum tracks for me now, so that's doable for now. Plus it saves me the trouble of having to mix the drums. Granted it would be nice if everyone could get together and rehearse things, exchange ideas, that kind of stuff. Hopefully I might get there someday but for now, this will do.

Pipeline has his studio set up now where I can go into his studio, record the other instruments and vocals, bring all that home and add my guitar parts and play around with the mix.

Lot's of really good musicians hanging out at Pipelines place. My hope is that if I do a good enough job with these recordings, I won't have to look for other musicians, they will come to me. If that happens, great, if not, well that's OK too.

My interests these days really lies in getting better at recording and mixing. If I can do that, and if a byproduct of doing that is a band of some type, then it's all good.


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I would say that, as long as you get on with the people, don't worry about sounding good. It's just good experience to play with other people, and will make your solo recordings better, too.

Of course, don't so it if it's a drag, but there's nothing wrong with just getting together and making a noise. It will still really help your playing, mainly because you have to get through a whole song and not punch-in and play bits at a time, and also to get a true sense of time instead of playing to a metronomic beat.

Very good points my friend, and yes, recording has already made me a better player since I'm better able to now hear how I'm playing rather than what I'm playing. That was kind of the point I was trying to make to the guy in the band, but he just wasn't interested. I told him I would let him know when I'm in the studio in case he wants to stop by and check things out.

Also, I really don't do the punch in thing that much, not that I was very good at it to begin with. Another advantage of recording in that it forced me to focus on the performance making sure I get everything in one single take. If I screw something up real bad, I just go back and re-record from the beginning. Little mistakes along the way I tend to let go provided they don't stand out too much.

With the way Pipeline has things set up, once I get the recordings from the studio, I can then start messing around with my guitars at home, trying to come up with voicings and tones that produce something really different and interesting. Since I don't do this for a living and don't have time considerations, I can, and do, spend days, even weeks, playing the same stuff over and over again, tweaking pedals, amps, and guitar settings chasing that elusive tonal sweet spot.

May not be the ideal way of doing things, but I get a good rate on Pipelines studio so what the hell, give it shot, see what happens. If it doesn't work out, I can always go back to playing golf.
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Old 01-23-2020, 11:35 AM   #43
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Yes. One thing I try to explain to people is that these things (big amps and drums) were meant to fill huge spaces at a time when you couldn’t expect the PA to do it for you. Even 50W is too much for most smaller rooms.
Yep, that's why I usually restrict myself to my Deluxe Reverb of 22 watts and even that can be too loud - I know the band is too loud when I lose my all headroom aka I dig in and it hits the ceiling too soon. I don't take my 50 watt to fix that because it would just make the problem worse so instead I get the band to dial it back a notch or two.
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Old 01-23-2020, 11:37 AM   #44
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I've been on stage with a fender twin with JBL speakers. Belonging to Horace Bevan from Bourbon Street in case anyone remembers. Which amazingly made it even heavier, as well as louder. You could hear that thing from outer space.

Reminds me of the old joke:

What do you throw a drowning guitarist?

His amp.
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Old 01-23-2020, 11:45 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
Yes. One thing I try to explain to people is that these things (big amps and drums) were meant to fill huge spaces at a time when you couldn’t expect the PA to do it for you. Even 50W is too much for most smaller rooms. Unless of course you’re really trying to punish people.
Ding ding ding ding ding!

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I've been on stage with a fender twin with JBL speakers...
Yikes!
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Old 01-23-2020, 11:55 AM   #46
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Every once in a while in my old goth-country band we would indulge Dave a little bit and use “real amps”. He managed to make his Princeton too loud, but he really preferred to bring the Super Reverb because the wife wouldn’t let him play it at home.
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Old 01-23-2020, 12:09 PM   #47
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I have to agree with almost all of these posts.

- If you have a Neil Peart drumkit, but you aren't a member of Rush, you are immediately pegged as a basement amateur.

- 50 watt or 100 watt amps without power soaks are a relic ftom a prior century

- I'm long past the time where I'll trust my hearing to a drunken, deaf or incompetent sound man. I refuse to attend any live show without earplugs.

- Volume masks musical emotional power, and is usually used to mask sloppy performances.

My 2 cents.
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Old 01-24-2020, 11:06 AM   #48
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- Volume masks musical emotional power, and is usually used to mask sloppy performances.
This discussion just happens to be very timely for me given that I am about to start recording in a studio with people who have never really recorded before.

Is there a subtle or tried and true tactful way of getting people to modify their performance as needed?

I am hoping that once the musician/singer hears their performance, it may become self evident to them, but given that their vision may not match mine, how do I make them aware of that without pissing them off?
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Old 01-24-2020, 11:25 AM   #49
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...but given that their vision may not match mine, how do I make them aware of that without pissing them off?
Who’s paying who? Who’s the actual producer? Most of the time I don’t get a vote. “Is that what you want to hear over and over again forever?” “Yes.” “OK.”

If there’s real real problems with levels or noises or something, address those. If you honestly understand what the artist is shooting for and believe they can do that better then let them know by using positive language. “That was good, the next one will be the one!” If you have real practical advice that can help right now without without too much effort that will take everybody out of performance mode, offer it tactfully. Always with the attitude of wanting to help them get what they’re shooting for. If there are real big thing that you anticipate - things people will have to learn and practice but also like instrument and gear maintenance - that stuff should be addressed in preproduction. I always go over those things with my clients beforehand and when they come in the studio, I assume that it’s been handled and short of real malfunctions whatever comes out is what they wanted to hear. It’s not my job to second guess any of it.

But then I guess IDK your situation. If it really is about achieving your vision and these people are just performing what you want by proxy, then you need to make sure that you have communicated your vision clearly. This will need to be a back and forth conversation even with real pros. You’ll go back and forth and try to find the disconnect between what they think you want and what you actually need from them. But still this is all preproduction work. Should be handled before you get in the studio so that everybody can just go in and do it and pick the best take.
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Old 01-24-2020, 11:38 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by toleolu View Post
This discussion just happens to be very timely for me given that I am about to start recording in a studio with people who have never really recorded before.

Is there a subtle or tried and true tactful way of getting people to modify their performance as needed?

I am hoping that once the musician/singer hears their performance, it may become self evident to them, but given that their vision may not match mine, how do I make them aware of that without pissing them off?
This is the reason an unbiased party with at least some say so needs to be involved. If there is just some band member footing the bill and it's their gig, your only choice is to go with the flow... minus having people skills that can win others over etc. via by example. Some have that some don't.
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Old 01-24-2020, 11:44 AM   #51
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Slightly related: I go to a regular 'open mic/jam session' thing where there's a regular bass player and other guys (sax, keys, fiddle, etc) who jam along/back up people who want it. Good clean fun. Nobody has to be a master musician, there have even been kids of 11 or so who've had their first go with a full band.

Now, a new drum guy has started coming along after the previous one fell out with the MC (not me btw). He's got a collection of weird and wonderful Djembes and other percussion which he obviously knows how to use except:

He has two playing levels: TOO LOUD!! and TOO BLOODY LOUD!!!

... so that everybody has to turn up - the PA system, the bass, the guitars etc, and the small bar can't take it. He's going to kill the session before long. Can anybody suggest a way of letting him know he's spoiling it for everybody? The MC isn't going to.
Quite, calm honesty.
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Old 01-24-2020, 11:46 AM   #52
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Who’s paying who? Who’s the actual producer?
I guess that would be me since I'm footing the bill for all of this and bringing everyone together.

Your point about people coming into the studio ready to record is another good point and something that I have tried to convey to the bass player and singer. I've provided them with the tracks I've already recording so they could use those to practice at home, and I've tried to point out that recording is a lot different than rehearsing, at least in my opinion anyway.

One of the problems I have is trying to explain what I'm looking for. It's one of those things that's hard to describe, but I know it when I hear it.

Then again this is all for fun anyway and it's more about me recording and mixing than it is coming up with the next smash hit.
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Old 01-24-2020, 11:50 AM   #53
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This is the reason an unbiased party with at least some say so needs to be involved.
This is one of the reasons I'm kind of glad I'll be doing this at Pipeline's place. I'll be relying heavily on his input and recommendations.
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Old 01-24-2020, 12:00 PM   #54
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This is one of the reasons I'm kind of glad I'll be doing this at Pipeline's place. I'll be relying heavily on his input and recommendations.
That's great. Are you guys going through any type pre-production? Aka practicing the material as a band, making at least portable recordings of that, reviewing, tweak and adjust, rehearse, record, rinse/repeat? That will reduce surprises and make the experience much less of an unorganized shit show (couldn't find a better term ). There's value to winging it, but that depends on the players, experience etc.
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Old 01-24-2020, 12:08 PM   #55
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That's great. Are you guys going through any type pre-production? Aka practicing the material as a band, making at least portable recordings of that, reviewing, tweak and adjust, rehearse, record, rinse/repeat?
I would love to do that, but scheduling is such a problem. The bass player already plays in two other working bands, plus he plays in his church band, and he holds down a full time job. The singers schedule is a bit more flexible, but still difficult to get everyone in the same room at the same time.

I still don't have a local drummer, a Reaper user on the mainland already recorded the drum tracks for I Need A Lover and I'm going to have him do the drum tracks for Black Velvet as well. Trying to keep things as simple as possible for these first two covers with the hopes that once they are done, it might be easier to get others involved on future projects.

But yes, I would love to get to the point where everyone who is playing on a given song can spend some time together in the studio rehearsing.
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Old 01-24-2020, 12:10 PM   #56
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I would love to do that, but scheduling is such a problem. The bass player already plays in two other working bands, plus he plays in his church band, and he holds down a full time job. The singers schedule is a bit more flexible, but still difficult to get everyone in the same room at the same time.

I still don't have a local drummer, a Reaper user on the mainland already recorded the drum tracks for I Need A Lover and I'm going to have him do the drum tracks for Black Velvet as well. Trying to keep things as simple as possible for these first two covers with the hopes that once they are done, it might be easier to get others involved on future projects.

But yes, I would love to get to the point where everyone who is playing on a given song can spend some time together in the studio rehearsing.
If the players aren't green, and they learn the material it should be OK. I certainly used to take on new cover tunes and everyone would just show up and play them at the gig minus rehearsal - that works better, the less members in the band and having experience doing that.

Ha... I used to play Black Velvet years back.
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Old 01-24-2020, 12:29 PM   #57
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^^ I've already rehearsed Black Velvet with the singer, but that was last year at a different studio.

The drummer crapped out on me and the singer got busy with family issues so we had to shelve things for awhile. The other problem back then is I had no way to record at the studio, but now with what Pipeline's done with his place, that's no longer a problem.

Just a couple of simple covers to get my feet wet and hopefully attract some interest from other musicians.
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Old 01-24-2020, 01:10 PM   #58
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I've been on stage with a fender twin with JBL speakers. Belonging to Horace Bevan from Bourbon Street in case anyone remembers. Which amazingly made it even heavier, as well as louder. You could hear that thing from outer space.

Reminds me of the old joke:

What do you throw a drowning guitarist?

His amp.
Back in the days of The Beat Poets in Nashville, our guitar player used TWO twins. Our solution was to have him put one on either side of his vocal monitor, angled back and up directly at his ears. Amazing how quickly onstage volume dropped. I was running my bass through an old Peavey combo 300 facing sideways across stage & actually hearing myself through the sidefills. Best large (well 4K capacity) club sound I ever had.
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Old 01-24-2020, 01:54 PM   #59
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unorganized shit show
That's just a great simple name for an album there.
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Old 01-24-2020, 02:07 PM   #60
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^^ A good name for a band too.
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Old 01-24-2020, 03:01 PM   #61
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^^Good idea and noted.
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Old 01-24-2020, 03:22 PM   #62
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With special guest Clusterf*ck.
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