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Old 08-21-2018, 09:28 AM   #41
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I was toying with the idea of getting a Behringer UMC1820 so I'd have a lot of inputs from one device, but Jack pointed me to a test he did in Linux, which showed the "monitoring thru" latency of USB devices in Linux.
Well let's not throw they baby out with the bath water. Maybe if we quantize the real loopback latency that you have, we'll find that the difference isn't insurmountable, especially at these low buffer sizes.

Another alternative would possibly be to add the usb device in the same manner with zita-a2j, it does have a high quality resampling algorithm and might very well serve well for recording toms and room mics.

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When recording drums I now check the alignment the moment I finish recording, and find some loud snare hit and some loud kick hit to use as my visual timing marks. Only takes a few seconds to hand align, if it needs it, which about 25% of the time it doesn't. That is what was messing with my head before knowing what was going on too, because sometimes I'd record drums and they would sound full and robust, and other times they would sound wimpy and thin.
I have actually started aligning kick and snare to the overheads even when recording with only one interface. As I also use a recorder man setup, both kick and snare align in the overheads. I religiously move the kick and snare tracks to line up with what I have in the overheads. IMO it leads to a fuller sound. I don't bother much with the toms as I can't align them to both overheads anyways, and trying to do it for the room mics would be useless, as they are further away..

I can imagine the disconnect between the full and the thin sound, that would have bugged the hell out of me too.
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Old 08-21-2018, 09:40 AM   #42
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I'm vastly guessing Jacks numbers are due to the driver not being written by RME?

44.1k = 44,100/1000 = 44.1 samples per ms = 192 samples/44.1 = 4.3 ms. I've not followed these threads so who knows what I'm missing.
AFAIK RME was very unimpressed with using USB as the latency was far to high, so they proceeded to write their own driver that uses the USB hardware but a different protocol thus achieving far better results.

The misery with usb soundcards on Linux is that there are no drivers, just the generic class 2.0 audio specification that adds alot of latency. I do believe that most windows users actually have the same issue as most card manufacturers don't bother doing as RME did...

What might be better on Windows in this respect is that they have somewhat of a driver that at least can report a more or less accurate latency back to reaper. On Linux Reaper only knows about the latency that can be calculated with the following formula. Buffersize X Periods / samplerate * 1000 (gives the result in ms), while the actual latency will be higher due to the delay of of sending audio through the USB bus.

PCI and FW cards are much lower latency than USB on Linux (as they probably are on windows and osx too for most cards).
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Old 08-21-2018, 09:50 AM   #43
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I don't think it has anything to do with the OS, it's the difference between "syncing" and "aligning" samples at the device level AFAIK. IOW, ADAT or WC sync can't address this either, they can sync what they have but they can't determine "who was out of the gate first", and can only keep what is there from drifting.
This has percolated in my head for a while, maybe an explanation is that the PLL locks onto the sync signal at a slightly different phase each time sync is established. So they are actually slightly out of sync, but they will keep the same off sync position as long as they are running.

Would be interesting to see if there is a pattern to how much out of sync they are during multiple tries. Mind you this is only a wild guess as I've never heard of this before and I've never studied the subject.
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Old 08-21-2018, 09:50 AM   #44
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AFAIK RME was very unimpressed with using USB as the latency was far to high, so they proceeded to write their own driver that uses the USB hardware but a different protocol thus achieving far better results.

The misery with usb soundcards on Linux is that there are no drivers, just the generic class 2.0 audio specification that adds alot of latency. I do believe that most windows users actually have the same issue as most card manufacturers don't bother doing as RME did...
That matches my memory of it; it's not an OS thing. I mentioned similar in a recent thread where there is a difference between a SC manufacturer who's sole purpose in life is audio interfaces vs. some company in the music business that decides to sell their own "branded" interface - the latter is almost always some hodgepodge of existing designs which in turn use windows (or the mac equivalent) of generic class compliant drivers - which come with a latency penalty.

That said, when someone does it right (RME in this case), USB is clearly capable of real-world workloads. PCI can beat it but in my experience of just "getting on with the job" so to speak, I don't notice the fact that my RME USB/Firewire isn't PCI even when recording 24 simultaneous tracks over USB2.
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Old 08-21-2018, 09:56 AM   #45
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a pattern to how much out of sync they are during multiple tries. Mind you this is only a wild guess as I've never heard of this before and I've never studied the subject.
When I first ran into it around 2011, it was explained as not being able to tell "who was first out of the gate". There is some initial spin up of the stream or similar of each device that are unaware of each other's start position, then something like WC or ADAT simply sync that and it stays perfectly locked after that point, it just may not be sample-aligned perfectly.

Based on that and IME, the variance isn't that huge but it is somewhat of a random race condition and enough to be concerned about phase issues on sources that may be sensitive to it. I've always avoided by keeping those sources on the same device but it can also be solved like Glenn does by finding a way to "mark and shift" after the fact; but since it varies, we can't set and forget it. That's all I know though as I've never dug into the internals.

It bugs me mentally, but my methodology makes it something I rarely actually have to deal with.
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Old 08-21-2018, 10:28 AM   #46
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When I first ran into it around 2011, it was explained as not being able to tell "who was first out of the gate". There is some initial spin up of the stream or similar of each device that are unaware of each other's start position, then something like WC or ADAT simply sync that and it stays perfectly locked after that point, it just may not be sample-aligned perfectly.
That sounds similar to what I was thinking of in terms of being in sync, but slightly out of phase. Oh well I'm not really clever or qualified enough to comment in an authoritative way anyways I'll ask around to see if any of the smart people I know can give a satisfactory answer.

Or who knows, maybe there actually is a reason to buy a high end clock like a big ben or similar.

As a matter of interest with what hardware have you seen this? I'm gonna run some tests with my RME and ADAT converters when I get home to see what I can discover. I hate stuff like this...

I'll let you in on a small secret.. With USB on Linux (but I've heard of this from Windows users too), each time you connect to the soundcard you might get a slightly different latency. The difference is not great, maybe +- 20 samples. What is somewhat worse is that the bigger the buffersize the bigger the hidden latency is, and at 1024 samples it is really significant...

What is important when recording is to tell reaper to compensate for the big "hidden" latency so that newly recorded tracks are aligned with the playback tracks, but if you want to get anal about it, you'd better do a loopback test each time you start up reaper, as otherwise you might be +-20 samples off perfect alignment..

I am much more satisfied with my HDSP card as there the hidden latency is exactly 95 samples, no matter what the buffer size is. It's composed of 32 samples of hardware buffer in each direction and 15/16 samples for the conversion itself.

As a somewhat nerd, things like this gives me a stomach ache and I always wonder why so many things are so crappily implemented. It's like the designers say this is good enough, let's sell it, instead of going the extra mile to make sure that things actually work as one would expect..:S
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Old 08-21-2018, 10:36 AM   #47
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As a matter of interest with what hardware have you seen this? I'm gonna run some tests with my RME and ADAT converters when I get home to see what I can discover. I hate stuff like this...
I first ran into it (because someone told me not because I noticed) when I bought my UA 4-710D around 2011 and connected it via ADAT to my RME Fireface. I'd have to test again but I want to think it was only a handful of samples total, wiggling around by a few on subsequent runs.

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I'll let you in on a small secret.. With USB on Linux (but I've heard of this from Windows users too), each time you connect to the soundcard you might get a slightly different latency. The difference is not great, maybe +- 20 samples. What is somewhat worse is that the bigger the buffersize the bigger the hidden latency is, and at 1024 samples it is really significant...
The only thing that sounds strange to me about that is almost all systems (I've owned) have some small +/- sample discrepancy from what is reported. Thusly, I do a formal loopback test and make the adjustment in reaper's playback/record offset settings using a single square wave sample to get them 100% sample accurate by comparing send/receiving tracks in the loopback. For my current setup that's -53 samples and has always been -53 samples for 48k - mentioning sample rate simply because latencies etc. move with sample rate.

Thanks for the heads up, I'll keep an eye on it in case I'm overlooking something or maybe what I'm speaking of isn't directly related.
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Old 08-21-2018, 10:53 AM   #48
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The reason that it reverted to 192 samples (3x64) is that you didn't add the -S parameter to qjackctl You can do this in settings - advanced - server prefix, just add -S after jackd. Then you ought to get 64/64 just like you had when starting it from reaper or the command line. I take it that the 206 value is what was reported in the additional delay compensation field? Was additional delay compensation selected?
Cool, I'll add the -S to QjackCtrl. The 206 was in the additional delay compensation box after I did the ping test. I did nothing more than connect a loopback cable, add an instance of ReaInsert and click the ping button. Nothing else was changed from stock settings.

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I won't dispute that this actually happens, I have zero experience with combining cards in this manner. However I don't buy the explanation that the cards kick in to record mode at different times. The cards are inputting audio the entire time you run reaper, be it in record mode or not. Sadly I can't offer an alternative explanation for why this would be

The reason I mentioned latency in this context is because I'm not sure if using zita-a2j adds latency or not, though my guess is that it doesn't. It was one thing I wanted to ascertain as I'm on vacation with my laptop and I have no reliable way to test myself. I.E. I wanted to use you as a guinea pig, I hope you don't mind
It's not adding any perceived latency, and since I've always had the non-synchronized start times with the two cards, I don't know that one could ever measure it. I'll say this, it's all working as good as it works in Windows, and I'm only missing a couple of plugins now.

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Thanks, that's useful information for me. Then I know that the next time I can tell ubuntu users to just install rtirq and edit the config file. Adding a kernel boot flag to the boot manager is a lot more complicated to explain

As a matter of interest, what version of ubuntu do you use?
I'm running Xubuntu. I don't really like Ubuntu at all personally. The few times I've tried it recently it seemed way to full of flashy desktop and way too light on nuts and bolts access for me.Just in the last couple of months I had all these versions on my machine.

Mint, Ubuntu, Manjaro, Arch, and AVLinux.

I was trying out different versions to be my primary desktop for everything except REAPER. My plan was to use this dual boot setup so I could still boot to Windows to run REAPER, but then I downloaded the Linux version of REAPER!
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Old 08-21-2018, 11:07 AM   #49
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Well let's not throw they baby out with the bath water. Maybe if we quantize the real loopback latency that you have, we'll find that the difference isn't insurmountable, especially at these low buffer sizes.

Another alternative would possibly be to add the usb device in the same manner with zita-a2j, it does have a high quality resampling algorithm and might very well serve well for recording toms and room mics.



I have actually started aligning kick and snare to the overheads even when recording with only one interface. As I also use a recorder man setup, both kick and snare align in the overheads. I religiously move the kick and snare tracks to line up with what I have in the overheads. IMO it leads to a fuller sound. I don't bother much with the toms as I can't align them to both overheads anyways, and trying to do it for the room mics would be useless, as they are further away..

I can imagine the disconnect between the full and the thin sound, that would have bugged the hell out of me too.
I had posted a message in the main group asking if people regularly hand aligned kick and snare mics with their overheads, because while zoomed in one day I noticed how far off the hits were. That's when Karbo jumped in and made me aware of the two physical devices start synchronization issue.

I've only been recording real acoustic drums again for about a year, so I never had any issues using V-Drums and Superior Drummer, but then I bought a little Ludwig Breakbeats kit and started trying to mic it up for recording.

Sometimes I'd record with them and they'd sound great, and then the next project like they were in a phone booth or something.

I still may pop for one of those Behringer UMC1820 units. They are only $250, and I have several things I could easily trade in and get the price more like $100.
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Old 08-21-2018, 11:26 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Thusly, I do a formal loopback test and make the adjustment in reaper's playback/record offset settings using a single square wave sample to get them 100% sample accurate by comparing send/receiving tracks in the loopback. For my current setup that's -53 samples and has always been -53 samples for 48k - mentioning sample rate simply because latencies etc. move with sample rate.

Thanks for the heads up, I'll keep an eye on it in case I'm overlooking something or maybe what I'm speaking of isn't directly related.
On my hdsp it's 95 samples, no matter what samplerate or operating system.

I don't think you have to worry at all with rme, unless if you switch to linux, then I'd forgo using class compliant USB and use FW if it's supported by alsa or ffado.

I think one problem is that we are mixing a few subjects together in this discussion and it's difficult to be precise with words when writing posts on a forum. It's not like we are academics discussing a topic in an academic setting spending days or weeks writing accurate essays

Edit: You can use reainsert to do a loopback test too. I'd be interested to know if it agrees with your results and gives a 0 samples adjustment after you've configured reapers recording settings with the right values.
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Old 08-21-2018, 12:01 PM   #51
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Cool, I'll add the -S to QjackCtrl. The 206 was in the additional delay compensation box after I did the ping test. I did nothing more than connect a loopback cable, add an instance of ReaInsert and click the ping button. Nothing else was changed from stock settings.
In that case the real roundtrip latency at those settings including buffers in the interface and conversion time is as follows: (192+206)/44.1 ~ 9.0ms. Not shabby at all. Contrast that with what I measured with similar settings with a USB device: (192+384)/44.1 ~13.1ms.

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It's not adding any perceived latency, and since I've always had the non-synchronized start times with the two cards, I don't know that one could ever measure it. I'll say this, it's all working as good as it works in Windows, and I'm only missing a couple of plugins now.
But, but, it can be improved Just kidding, if that works well for you, I'm happy to have been able to help you! I don't know if your projects would work without xruns at similar settings with USB, latency is only half the story. Though I don't think you'd notice the difference, but some people are more sensitive to this than others.

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I'm running Xubuntu. I don't really like Ubuntu at all personally. The few times I've tried it recently it seemed way to full of flashy desktop and way too light on nuts and bolts access for me.
I was actually more interested in if you were running 16.04, 17.10, 18.04 etc. If I have understood right, all these flavours are the same foundation with a different GUI bolted on.
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Old 08-21-2018, 12:59 PM   #52
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I still may pop for one of those Behringer UMC1820 units. They are only $250, and I have several things I could easily trade in and get the price more like $100.
If I not wrong there are many places that gives you a 30 days money back guarantee. Seems a no brainer to pick one up to test, and if you aren't satisfied send it back. I note that the unit also has internal monitoring, that means that you can monitor without latency even if the device is running at higher latency.

I record with a X32 and do all the monitoring through it's onboard FX. This means that I can run it at 1024 samples buffer with no problems. The only thing I really have to pay attention to, is to measure the round trip latency and configure reaper to account for the hidden latency. This is to make sure that the newly recorded tracks line up properly with the already recorded material.

You also have the added advantage to have your M-Audio devices, which means that you could record drums monitoring through the Behringer at high latency, and then switch to your M-Audio for real low latency monitoring through FX when recording guitar and bass. Then add your softsynths still running at low latency.

I think you're gonna be happy with Linux, especially once you get all the plugins you need running. We're already in a good place with Reaper, U-he, LinVst, etc. Things can only improve from here on! BTW, Repro-5 is a seriously good sounding prophet emulation, there are also quite a few totally free Linux synths that are very high quality!

Still I'm very curious to hear if that .asoundrc works out for you! If you copy that to your home dir and start jack (or reaper) you ought to have a new device that combines the 2 cards into one. That without rebooting it will be there for the next program that you start. Same to remove it, just delete the file and it's gone. Doesn't change your system in any way what so ever.
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Old 08-21-2018, 04:35 PM   #53
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In that case the real roundtrip latency at those settings including buffers in the interface and conversion time is as follows: (192+206)/44.1 ~ 9.0ms. Not shabby at all. Contrast that with what I measured with similar settings with a USB device: (192+384)/44.1 ~13.1ms.
I can live with under 10ms. Latency really stands out on midi drums, and I'm not feeling any lag when playing digital drums from keyboard or pad kit. The test tracks I recorded earlier of bass and guitar were monitoring through REAPER, and the response felt plenty tight. I don't use virtual guitar or bass rigs (both are covered by hardware), but I could if I wanted to.

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But, but, it can be improved Just kidding, if that works well for you, I'm happy to have been able to help you! I don't know if your projects would work without xruns at similar settings with USB, latency is only half the story. Though I don't think you'd notice the difference, but some people are more sensitive to this than others.
If I ever do hear a smear or artifact, I never worry about it. I will stop, back up and verify that it isn't actually printed that way, knowing that when I render it to wave or MP3 that it should be all fine and dandy anyway.


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I was actually more interested in if you were running 16.04, 17.10, 18.04 etc. If I have understood right, all these flavours are the same foundation with a different GUI bolted on.
Oh, it's 18.04.1 LTS Bionic Beaver. Yeah, it's really the xfce desktop and boatload of stuff that's NOT pre-installed that I like about Xubuntu.
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Old 08-21-2018, 05:10 PM   #54
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If I not wrong there are many places that gives you a 30 days money back guarantee. Seems a no brainer to pick one up to test, and if you aren't satisfied send it back. I note that the unit also has internal monitoring, that means that you can monitor without latency even if the device is running at higher latency.
It's unfortunately not an item they have on the shelf at Guitar Center. They can get me one, which I could do myself, but if I want to trade some of my unused gear in toward one, I will have to go through GC and have them special order one in for me. I'd still get the money back guarantee. I just need a reason to talk myself into loading up some old gear and making a drive across town. With everything working so well in Linux with my current hardware, I'm not getting motivated enough to exert the effort.

It will probably come down to getting one of those wild hair moments, which is how I got my Ludwig drums. All of sudden one day I found myself wheeling and dealing on the phone, and before the day was out, ended up with a brand new in the box set of Ludwig drums without spending any money at all. Spent a lot of time and energy though cleaning up the drums I was trading in to look showroom new, carting them across town, and then haggling for thirty or forty minutes to finally trade even for the other kit.

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I record with a X32 and do all the monitoring through it's onboard FX. This means that I can run it at 1024 samples buffer with no problems. The only thing I really have to pay attention to, is to measure the round trip latency and configure reaper to account for the hidden latency. This is to make sure that the newly recorded tracks line up properly with the already recorded material.

You also have the added advantage to have your M-Audio devices, which means that you could record drums monitoring through the Behringer at high latency, and then switch to your M-Audio for real low latency monitoring through FX when recording guitar and bass. Then add your softsynths still running at low latency.
The last time I used direct monitoring I was still running Cakewalk Sonar and was using a Soundblaster Live. Once I got my first M-Audio 2496 I was so impressed with it, I bought a second one to put in a dedicated GigaStudio machine I used to use exclusively for digital drums. When I retired Giga, I put both cards in my DAW, and have had them installed in no less than five machines since the late 90s. They keep working, no matter what OS I throw at them, so I keep not replacing them. Got my $125 a pop out of them by now for sure!

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I think you're gonna be happy with Linux, especially once you get all the plugins you need running. We're already in a good place with Reaper, U-he, LinVst, etc. Things can only improve from here on! BTW, Repro-5 is a seriously good sounding prophet emulation, there are also quite a few totally free Linux synths that are very high quality!
I tried yesterday to install my copy of Native Instruments Komplete Elements, which was a real stripped down version of Komplete I bought before getting the full version of Kontakt. I wanted to use that one because it's not installed on the Windows side of my dual boot machine. Anyway, it won't install because it gets all the way up to where you've answered all the preliminary questions about locations and keycodes and then it putzes out with a message to insert the DVD into the drive. It doesn't see the genuine store bought, factory produced DVD that is in the drive as the valid media it wants.

I'm holding back on trying to install the real full version of Kontakt, because I don't want to create licensing issues that might screw my working registered version up in Windows. I also have not tried to install Waves DBX160, Lexicon Native MPX Reverb, Soundtoys Little Plate, Arturia Minimoog, Toontrack EZ-Keys, and a few others that employ copy protection that might blow a gasket.

Toontrack stuff I'm confident will work, as I already installed EZ-Drummer successfully. It was another one I am not currently using or have installed in Windows, so I wasn't worried about it possibly invalidating my license. The ones I suspect will be the most difficult to eventually get functioning in Linux will be the few that employ PACE copy protection. I have an iLok with multiple activations, but I doubt that the PACE software needed to use it will fly in Wine.

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Still I'm very curious to hear if that .asoundrc works out for you! If you copy that to your home dir and start jack (or reaper) you ought to have a new device that combines the 2 cards into one. That without rebooting it will be there for the next program that you start. Same to remove it, just delete the file and it's gone. Doesn't change your system in any way what so ever.
I will give it a try. I was concerned about it possibly messing up what works so well currently, but if I can just delete it and it's gone, I'll try it.
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Old 08-21-2018, 05:24 PM   #55
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OK, think I found what we need!

Create a ~/.asoundrc file, and put the following into it:

Code:
pcm.Maudio {
    type multi;
    slaves.a.pcm hw:1
    slaves.a.channels 2;
    slaves.b.pcm hw:3
    slaves.b.channels 2;
    bindings.0.slave a;
    bindings.0.channel 0;
    bindings.1.slave b;
    bindings.1.channel 0;
    bindings.2.slave a;
    bindings.2.channel 1;
    bindings.3.slave b;
    bindings.3.channel 1;
}

ctl.Maudio {
    type hw
    card 1
}
Start JACK with the following command line: /usr/bin/jackd -R -dalsa -dhw:Maudio -r44100 -p128 -n2 -Xseq
I created the .soundrc file with the contents you posted, then issued the start command for jack (had to change -dhw:Maudio to -dhw:M2496, which then produced the following.

================================================== ============================
jackdmp 1.9.12
Copyright 2001-2005 Paul Davis and others.
Copyright 2004-2016 Grame.
Copyright 2016-2017 Filipe Coelho.
jackdmp comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY
This is free software, and you are welcome to redistribute it
under certain conditions; see the file COPYING for details
no message buffer overruns
no message buffer overruns
no message buffer overruns
JACK server starting in realtime mode with priority 10
self-connect-mode is "Don't restrict self connect requests"
audio_reservation_init
Acquire audio card Audio2
creating alsa driver ... hw:M2496,0|hw:M2496,0|128|2|44100|0|0|nomon|swmete r|-|32bit
configuring for 44100Hz, period = 128 frames (2.9 ms), buffer = 2 periods
ALSA: final selected sample format for capture: 32bit integer little-endian
ALSA: use 2 periods for capture
ALSA: final selected sample format for playback: 32bit integer little-endian
ALSA: use 2 periods for playback
port created: Midi-Through:midi/playback_1
port created: Midi-Through:midi/capture_1
port created: M-Audio-Audiophile-24/96:midi/playback_1
port created: M-Audio-Audiophile-24/96:midi/capture_1
port created: M-Audio-Audiophile-24/96:midi/playback_1
port created: M-Audio-Audiophile-24/96:midi/capture_1
================================================== ============================

It still doesn't make the second card accessible in REAPER though. I also tried modifying the .asoundsrc file so that the referenced names in it at the top and bottom were M2496, but that didn't make any difference either.
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Old 08-21-2018, 07:59 PM   #56
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Waves Central does work or it used to work until someone made a Wine cmd.exe patch that broke it in Wine Staging 3.12 and there has been a patch submitted but it missed Wine 3.14 so Waves Central has been broken in Wine Staging 3.12, Wine Staging 3.13 and Wine Staging 3.14.


I don't know if it would help as I havn't got Kontakt and others wouold know more about it but I think that if the dvd's are dual PC/Mac (like the old Pro Tools dvd's) then the unhide option might be needed.

For all NI iso files they need to be mounted using udf and the unhide option.

sudo mount -t udf file.iso -o unhide /mnt

run winecfg and check the Drives tab for a windows drive letter associated with /mnt

cd /mnt and run the installer (wine setup.exe)

To unmount the iso change to a drirectory away from /mnt and then sudo umount /mnt
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Old 08-22-2018, 12:16 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennbo View Post
I tried yesterday to install my copy of Native Instruments Komplete Elements, which was a real stripped down version of Komplete I bought before getting the full version of Kontakt. I wanted to use that one because it's not installed on the Windows side of my dual boot machine. Anyway, it won't install because it gets all the way up to where you've answered all the preliminary questions about locations and keycodes and then it putzes out with a message to insert the DVD into the drive. It doesn't see the genuine store bought, factory produced DVD that is in the drive as the valid media it wants.
osxmidi is right, "sudo mount -t udf file.iso -o unhide /mnt" should work. It took me many days to figure that one out when I wanted to install Komplete 8. I don't know if it's some kind of copy protection or just a strangely formatted DVD, but what happens is that Linux/Wine only sees the OS/X assets and not the windows ones. If you use the above command it should see the needed Windows assets.

Quote:
The ones I suspect will be the most difficult to eventually get functioning in Linux will be the few that employ PACE copy protection. I have an iLok with multiple activations, but I doubt that the PACE software needed to use it will fly in Wine.
I'm unsure if iLock dongles will work in Wine, just be careful that you don't lose some important licenses when you try to get it working! :S But there have been reports of people getting Pace's cloud/harddisk licensing to work. I suppose the same caveat applies here..

Edit: For installing NI, you might have to change directory to the DVD before running the installer. Another tip, when trying to install Waves, it might be smart to create a new account and install a few demo licenses, so that you are sure that it works before you try with one of your genuine licenses, would be bad for them to vanish into the digital ether...
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Old 08-22-2018, 12:30 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennbo View Post
I created the .soundrc file with the contents you posted, then issued the start command for jack (had to change -dhw:Maudio to -dhw:M2496, which then produced the following.
Dang. Was pretty sure that would work. I assume the above ".soundrc" is a typo. It would have to be -dhw:Maudio, -dhw:M2496 would refer to just one of your already existing cards.

Back to the drawing board then I'll see if I can't figure out something on my laptop to try the above. The problem is I'm not at home and have limited hardware to test with.

Please confirm something for me. Can you confirm that "/usr/bin/jackd -R -dalsa -dhw:M2496 -r44100 -p128 -n2 -Xseq" starts JACK on the primary card, and "/usr/bin/jackd -R -dalsa -dhw:M2496_1 -r44100 -p128 -n2 -Xseq" on the secondary card?
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Old 08-22-2018, 08:49 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by osxmidi View Post
Waves Central does work or it used to work until someone made a Wine cmd.exe patch that broke it in Wine Staging 3.12 and there has been a patch submitted but it missed Wine 3.14 so Waves Central has been broken in Wine Staging 3.12, Wine Staging 3.13 and Wine Staging 3.14.


I don't know if it would help as I havn't got Kontakt and others wouold know more about it but I think that if the dvd's are dual PC/Mac (like the old Pro Tools dvd's) then the unhide option might be needed.

For all NI iso files they need to be mounted using udf and the unhide option.

sudo mount -t udf file.iso -o unhide /mnt

run winecfg and check the Drives tab for a windows drive letter associated with /mnt

cd /mnt and run the installer (wine setup.exe)

To unmount the iso change to a drirectory away from /mnt and then sudo umount /mnt

Thanks! I'll give this a try in a while. It would be great if I could get this piece of software to go, as it is not installed on the Windows side of the house, and does have some (although limited) great sounds from the full Kontakt library.
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Old 08-22-2018, 08:57 AM   #60
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Hah, got it!

Try this in ~/.asoundrc

Code:
pcm.Multi {
    type multi;
    slaves.a.pcm hw:M2496
    slaves.a.channels 2;
    slaves.b.pcm hw:M2496_1
    slaves.b.channels 2;
    bindings.0.slave a;
    bindings.0.channel 0;
    bindings.1.slave a;
    bindings.1.channel 1;
    bindings.2.slave b;
    bindings.2.channel 0;
    bindings.3.slave b;
    bindings.3.channel 1;
}

ctl.Multi
{
    type hw
    card M2496
}
And then to start jack: /usr/bin/jackd -P80 -S -dalsa -d Multi -r44100 -p64 -n2 -Xseq

And if that doesn't work, try:
Code:
pcm.Multi {
    type multi;
    slaves.a.pcm hw:1
    slaves.a.channels 2;
    slaves.b.pcm hw:3
    slaves.b.channels 2;
    bindings.0.slave a;
    bindings.0.channel 0;
    bindings.1.slave a;
    bindings.1.channel 1;
    bindings.2.slave b;
    bindings.2.channel 0;
    bindings.3.slave b;
    bindings.3.channel 1;
}

ctl.Multi
{
    type hw
    card 1
}
And the same command line to start jack.

The first version would be the preferred one. If it works you should be able to put the command line back into the reaper prefs.
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Old 08-22-2018, 09:00 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Winter View Post
osxmidi is right, "sudo mount -t udf file.iso -o unhide /mnt" should work. It took me many days to figure that one out when I wanted to install Komplete 8. I don't know if it's some kind of copy protection or just a strangely formatted DVD, but what happens is that Linux/Wine only sees the OS/X assets and not the windows ones. If you use the above command it should see the needed Windows assets.



I'm unsure if iLock dongles will work in Wine, just be careful that you don't lose some important licenses when you try to get it working! :S But there have been reports of people getting Pace's cloud/harddisk licensing to work. I suppose the same caveat applies here..

Edit: For installing NI, you might have to change directory to the DVD before running the installer. Another tip, when trying to install Waves, it might be smart to create a new account and install a few demo licenses, so that you are sure that it works before you try with one of your genuine licenses, would be bad for them to vanish into the digital ether...
For the moment, I'm only installing or trying to install software that I have retired on the Windows side of the house. EZ-Drummer was EZ to install, has some great sounds and wasn't being used because I have Superior Drummer in Windows now. Turns out I don't use either of them for the drums any more, since I can record real drums now, but I use them to lay down scratch beats to use as a metronome while composing. Then later I replace the scratch digital drums with acoustic real ones. I don't plan to even try installing PACE or any of my plugins that use it, which are like two or maybe three plugins.

I'm going to try installing Native Instruments Komplete Elements again in a while using the mount command that osxmidi posted on my real physical store bought DVD. I did try installing it yesterday from a Wine CMD prompt, logged onto the drive letter Wine knows the CD/DVD drive as. It still threw out the can't find my disk message.
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Old 08-22-2018, 09:05 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennbo View Post
I'm going to try installing Native Instruments Komplete Elements again in a while using the mount command that osxmidi posted on my real physical store bought DVD. I did try installing it yesterday from a Wine CMD prompt, logged onto the drive letter Wine knows the CD/DVD drive as. It still threw out the can't find my disk message.
Yes, because it only sees the OSX assets, and both installers. It simply doesn't find the windows files that it needs to perform the installation.
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Old 08-22-2018, 09:12 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Jack Winter View Post
Hah, got it!

Try this in ~/.asoundrc

Code:
pcm.Multi {
    type multi;
    slaves.a.pcm hw:M2496
    slaves.a.channels 2;
    slaves.b.pcm hw:M2496_1
    slaves.b.channels 2;
    bindings.0.slave a;
    bindings.0.channel 0;
    bindings.1.slave a;
    bindings.1.channel 1;
    bindings.2.slave b;
    bindings.2.channel 0;
    bindings.3.slave b;
    bindings.3.channel 1;
}

ctl.Multi
{
    type hw
    card M2496
}
And then to start jack: /usr/bin/jackd -P80 -S -dalsa -d Multi -r44100 -p64 -n2 -Xseq

And if that doesn't work, try:
Code:
pcm.Multi {
    type multi;
    slaves.a.pcm hw:1
    slaves.a.channels 2;
    slaves.b.pcm hw:3
    slaves.b.channels 2;
    bindings.0.slave a;
    bindings.0.channel 0;
    bindings.1.slave a;
    bindings.1.channel 1;
    bindings.2.slave b;
    bindings.2.channel 0;
    bindings.3.slave b;
    bindings.3.channel 1;
}

ctl.Multi
{
    type hw
    card 1
}
And the same command line to start jack.

The first version would be the preferred one. If it works you should be able to put the command line back into the reaper prefs.
---

Quote:
Can you confirm that "/usr/bin/jackd -R -dalsa -dhw:M2496 -r44100 -p128 -n2 -Xseq" starts JACK on the primary card, and "/usr/bin/jackd -R -dalsa -dhw:M2496_1 -r44100 -p128 -n2 -Xseq" on the secondary card?
From the other post, yes both those commands fire up jack as expected, and the typo was indeed a typo.

Both variations of the newest .asoundrc generated the following.

jackdmp 1.9.12
Copyright 2001-2005 Paul Davis and others.
Copyright 2004-2016 Grame.
Copyright 2016-2017 Filipe Coelho.
jackdmp comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY
This is free software, and you are welcome to redistribute it
under certain conditions; see the file COPYING for details
no message buffer overruns
no message buffer overruns
no message buffer overruns
JACK server starting in realtime mode with priority 80
self-connect-mode is "Don't restrict self connect requests"
audio_reservation_init
Acquire audio card Audio1
creating alsa driver ... Multi|Multi|64|2|44100|0|0|nomon|swmeter|-|32bit
ALSA: Cannot open PCM device alsa_pcm for playback. Falling back to capture-only mode
Released audio card Audio1
audio_reservation_finish
Cannot initialize driver
JackServer::Open failed with -1
Failed to open server
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Old 08-22-2018, 09:15 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Jack Winter View Post
Yes, because it only sees the OSX assets, and both installers. It simply doesn't find the windows files that it needs to perform the installation.
I put the install DVD into my drive and waited for it to auto mount, then issued the command:

sudo mount -t udf file.iso -o unhide /mnt

Which came back with this:

mount: /mnt: special device file.iso does not exist.
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Old 08-22-2018, 09:55 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Glennbo View Post
JackServer::Open failed with -1
Failed to open server
Grumble, but I have a few more suggestions

It's good that you can use M2496 & M2496_1 to access the cards. Please use hw:M2496 and hw:M2496_1 instead of hw:1 and hw:3 from now on. both for jack and for a2j-bridge. The reason for this is that the index can change, especially when you add usb devices to the mix. Normally it shouldn't with PCI cards, but it's just a safer practice.
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Last edited by Jack Winter; 08-22-2018 at 10:04 AM.
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Old 08-22-2018, 10:02 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennbo View Post
I put the install DVD into my drive and waited for it to auto mount, then issued the command:

sudo mount -t udf file.iso -o unhide /mnt

Which came back with this:

mount: /mnt: special device file.iso does not exist.
That was extra stupid from my side, I cut and pasted that without paying attention.. I claim caffeine deficiency

Try this instead, insert the disk and wait for it to automount, then unmount it.

Code:
sudo mount -t udf /dev/sr0 -o unhide /mnt
cd /tmp
wine setup.exe
replace /dev/sr0 with the right device for the cdrom
and setup.exe with the actual name of the installer.
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Old 08-22-2018, 10:03 AM   #67
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Regarding the failed ~/.asoundrc attempt, you did note the missing 'hw:' part in the jack command line right?
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Old 08-22-2018, 10:17 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Jack Winter View Post
Grumble, but I have a few more suggestions

It's good that you can use M2496 & M2496_1 to access the cards. Please use hw:M2496 and hw:M2496_1 instead of hw:1 and hw:3 from now on. both for jack and for a2j-bridge. The reason for this is that the index can change, especially when you add usb devices to the mix. Normally it shouldn't with PCI cards, but it's just a safer practice.
Pretty sure the M-Audio cards got assigned 2 and 3. Video card HDMI audio got 0, and the VIA motherboard audio got 1. There are too dang many similar names for this stuff. Another variation that works some places, but not in others is hw:M2496,0 . . . Oh, maybe I got one and two wrong, here's what cat /proc/asound/cards comes back with.

0 [MID ]: HDA-Intel - HDA Intel MID
- HDA Intel MID at 0xf9ff8000 irq 32
1 [NVidia ]: HDA-Intel - HDA NVidia
- HDA NVidia at 0xfbcfc000 irq 17
2 [M2496 ]: ICE1712 - M Audio Audiophile 24/96
- M Audio Audiophile 24/96 at 0xec00, irq 16
3 [M2496_1 ]: ICE1712 - M Audio Audiophile 24/96
- M Audio Audiophile 24/96 at 0xe400, irq 17
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Old 08-22-2018, 10:31 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennbo View Post
Pretty sure the M-Audio cards got assigned 2 and 3. Video card HDMI audio got 0, and the VIA motherboard audio got 1. There are too dang many similar names for this stuff. Another variation that works some places, but not in others is hw:M2496,0
For this purpose you can safely drop the ,0 part, it refers to sub devices. Might be relevant if you add a device with say 4 midi ports, or some special sound cards.

There is a way to bind a device to an index, maybe we can do that some day. I don't think M2496 and M2496_1 will ever change place, AFAIK they get sorted on the PCI address. So if you consistently refer to them as hw:M2496 and hw:M2496_1 you ought to avoid all hassles with this "issue". But if one day you have the kick/snare on the OH tracks and vice versa, then you know what happened

I could investigate if there is some way to assign index based on the card type and pci address, it might be possible but I've never come across it.
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Old 08-22-2018, 11:09 AM   #70
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That was extra stupid from my side, I cut and pasted that without paying attention.. I claim caffeine deficiency

Try this instead, insert the disk and wait for it to automount, then unmount it.

Code:
sudo mount -t udf /dev/sr0 -o unhide /mnt
cd /tmp
wine setup.exe
replace /dev/sr0 with the right device for the cdrom
and setup.exe with the actual name of the installer.
This worked. Yay! The moment it finished installing, it wanted to run service center, which I let it do and since I had deactivated the "Elements" version of Komplete when I bought the full version of Kontakt, it showed it as being deactivated, and was totally happy to let me activate it for this side of the house. :-)
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Old 08-22-2018, 11:10 AM   #71
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Regarding the failed ~/.asoundrc attempt, you did note the missing 'hw:' part in the jack command line right?
I tried adding the hw: part and it comes back with,

control open "hw:Multi" (No such device)
Cannot initialize driver

I also tried it with all lower case multi and got the same message.
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Old 08-22-2018, 11:25 AM   #72
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I tried adding the hw: part and it comes back with,

control open "hw:Multi" (No such device)
Cannot initialize driver
What I meant is that it needs to be without the hw: part. Thought maybe you just changed the Name and didn't see that I left out hw:. I lost quite a lot of time due to making that mistake myself today
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Old 08-22-2018, 11:28 AM   #73
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This worked.
Congratulations! I think it took me weeks to figure that out when I got my Komplete 8 many years ago..
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Old 08-22-2018, 11:41 AM   #74
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Congratulations! I think it took me weeks to figure that out when I got my Komplete 8 many years ago..
I just finished playing my Gibson L6s Midnight Special through Guitar Rig in REAPER, and it was plenty tight. I don't really use guitar sims, but I have some if I needed them.

Had to do a wine cmd, and then log onto e: in a command prompt. From there it was just type the extremely long name for the installer and away it went.

Thanks for the help on this one. I'd have never found the commands to make a dual format DVD all visible, looking through search engines.

So how do I back this entire copy of Linux up so I can restore it onto larger media? I'm down to 7.2GB of space after installing all this cool stuff I wasn't expecting to ever install.

When I set my machine up dual boot a couple months ago I bought a 250GB Samsung EVO and made two partitions on it. I only gave 30GB to Linux because my plan was to keep all REAPER stuff in Windows only. Things have changed now, and while I don't anticipate installing anything else now that I have Komplete Elements up and running, but 7.2GB feels like being painted into a corner. Windows would hate it, but Linux hasn't barked once about it so far.
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Old 08-22-2018, 11:43 AM   #75
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Let's try this one then.
Code:
pcm.Multi {
    type multi;
    slaves.a.pcm "hw:M2496";
    slaves.a.channels 2;
    slaves.b.pcm "hw:M2496_1";
    slaves.b.channels 2;
    bindings.0.slave a;
    bindings.0.channel 0;
    bindings.1.slave a;
    bindings.1.channel 1;
    bindings.2.slave b;
    bindings.2.channel 0;
    bindings.3.slave b;
    bindings.3.channel 1;
}

ctl.Multi
{
    type hw;
    card "M2496";
}

pcm.M-Audio {
        type route;
        slave.pcm "Multi";
        slave.channels 4;
        ttable.0.0 1;
        ttable.1.1 1;
        ttable.2.2 1;
        ttable.3.3 1;
}

ctl.M-Audio {
        type hw;
        card "M2496";
}
Use: /usr/bin/jackd -P80 -S -dalsa -d M-Audio -r44100 -p64 -n2 -Xseq
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Old 08-22-2018, 11:56 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Winter View Post
Let's try this one then.


Use: /usr/bin/jackd -P80 -S -dalsa -d M-Audio -r44100 -p64 -n2 -Xseq
Dang it, that one blows with this stuff. You don't have to keep trying to make it all work with a single line for initialization. I do have a way to get the other channels happening when I need them, so unless you are just determined to make this sucker work, in which case I'd be happy to keep trying them out.

jackdmp 1.9.12
Copyright 2001-2005 Paul Davis and others.
Copyright 2004-2016 Grame.
Copyright 2016-2017 Filipe Coelho.
jackdmp comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY
This is free software, and you are welcome to redistribute it
under certain conditions; see the file COPYING for details
no message buffer overruns
no message buffer overruns
no message buffer overruns
JACK server starting in realtime mode with priority 80
self-connect-mode is "Don't restrict self connect requests"
audio_reservation_init
Acquire audio card Audio0
creating alsa driver ... M-Audio|M-Audio|64|2|44100|0|0|nomon|swmeter|-|32bit
configuring for 44100Hz, period = 64 frames (1.5 ms), buffer = 2 periods
ALSA: no playback configurations available (Invalid argument)
ALSA: cannot configure capture channel
Released audio card Audio0
audio_reservation_finish
Cannot initialize driver
JackServer::Open failed with -1
Failed to open server
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Old 08-22-2018, 12:20 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennbo View Post
Thanks for the help on this one. I'd have never found the commands to make a dual format DVD all visible, looking through search engines.
Heh, I made sure to save the information somewhere so that I could look it up again, I lost so much time figuring it out...

Quote:
So how do I back this entire copy of Linux up so I can restore it onto larger media? I'm down to 7.2GB of space after installing all this cool stuff I wasn't expecting to ever install.
I suppose that depends on what you want to do..

If just cloning the Linux partition onto another one, I'd use rsync:https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php...system_cloning

This program is great. You can do nearly anything with it.

If you are moving your Linux install to a new sdd, I'd create a couple of small partitions to install the OS into and the rest to keep your user data in. Mine is basically setup with a smallish partition for / (root), a small partition for swap, and most of the disk dedicated to ~ (the home dir). In addition I have a couple of partition to use for /, so I can have a backup in case something goes wrong updating the distro, or to install other distros in. Like that I can easily check some distro out and still have all my data available.

You could also alternatively connect another sdd, use rsync to clone your ~ to the new disk, delete the old ~, and finally mount the new disk in /home/yourusername. Like that you keep the install and have the entire disk available for data.

There are so many ways to do this, that it's hard to give advice..

There is also gparted and other programs that could shrink your windows partition and increase your linux partition. But this might be dangerous and I'm not very comfortable recommending it. I managed to kill a windows7 install once like that. For linux that would be no problem, but windows can be finicky about it...
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Old 08-22-2018, 12:39 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Jack Winter View Post
Heh, I made sure to save the information somewhere so that I could look it up again, I lost so much time figuring it out...



I suppose that depends on what you want to do..

If just cloning the Linux partition onto another one, I'd use rsync:https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php...system_cloning

This program is great. You can do nearly anything with it.

If you are moving your Linux install to a new sdd, I'd create a couple of small partitions to install the OS into and the rest to keep your user data in. Mine is basically setup with a smallish partition for / (root), a small partition for swap, and most of the disk dedicated to ~ (the home dir). In addition I have a couple of partition to use for /, so I can have a backup in case something goes wrong updating the distro, or to install other distros in. Like that I can easily check some distro out and still have all my data available.

You could also alternatively connect another sdd, use rsync to clone your ~ to the new disk, delete the old ~, and finally mount the new disk in /home/yourusername. Like that you keep the install and have the entire disk available for data.

There are so many ways to do this, that it's hard to give advice..

There is also gparted and other programs that could shrink your windows partition and increase your linux partition. But this might be dangerous and I'm not very comfortable recommending it. I managed to kill a windows7 install once like that. For linux that would be no problem, but windows can be finicky about it...
I've already killed a 1TB NTFS drive playing around, but fortunately I had a backup and was able to restore it. I was playing around with DejaDup which uses rsync in the background I believe, and I had made a backup of just my home folder from Linux onto my 1TB NTFS drive. DejaDup has an option to restore to a different location, so being the risk taker that I am, I created a home folder on the 1TB NTFS drive and told DejaDup to restore to that folder. It tried to, but then started throwing out error messages that the disk was full. I knew that was not the case, and aborted out. The next time I booted into Windows, I got a message that scandisk needed to run, and then I saw it *fixing* things for me. When I got fully booted into Windows, my 1TB drive had a single .dat file on it and nothing else.

I would *like* to steal some space from Windows by shrinking the volume, and then let gparted grow the Linux volume, but my gut tells me that's too risky for even my blood. I'll probably grab another 250GB EVO somewhere down the line and just clone the Linux side to it, then let Windows have back the 30GB I stole from it to install Linux.
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Old 08-22-2018, 01:59 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Glennbo View Post
Dang it, that one blows with this stuff. You don't have to keep trying to make it all work with a single line for initialization. I do have a way to get the other channels happening when I need them, so unless you are just determined to make this sucker work, in which case I'd be happy to keep trying them out.
Don't worry about it! I enjoy these kind of challenges, and by now I'm kind of hooked on making this work.. If I didn't have the time or inclination I wouldn't have spent time on helping you

I'm on vacation and working on some other things, and when I get bored I have a look at the linux forum and maybe post something. In fact this is one of the better threads and full of useful information for people new to this. It also illustrates how a couple of changes can take you from being unable to use windows vsts at medium latency to make it work at low latency. It also serves to collect my thoughts in preparation of giving the wiki an overhaul, but writing that kind of documentation is something I don't really enjoy very much, at least not until it's finished

Think I'm gonna make this thread a sticky until there is better material available.

Though I'll concede temporary defeat. The problem is that I'm not very well versed in this kind of stuff. The ALSA userspace configuration is super powerful but also somewhat of an acquired taste. It's easy to make a mistake and it's hard to know the ins and outs of it if one haven't spent a lot of time doing it. This is the first time I've tried to do something like this, but I managed to combine my onboard with the rme babyface I have available here, so it's somewhat galling that I can't make it work for you too..

Could you please provide me with the output of alsa-info.sh? If you don't have that program installed, the package is called alsa-util. That'll give me a lot of information about your system. Do remove the .asoundrc first.
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Old 08-22-2018, 02:46 PM   #80
Glennbo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Winter View Post
Don't worry about it! I enjoy these kind of challenges, and by now I'm kind of hooked on making this work.. If I didn't have the time or inclination I wouldn't have spent time on helping you

I'm on vacation and working on some other things, and when I get bored I have a look at the linux forum and maybe post something. In fact this is one of the better threads and full of useful information for people new to this. It also illustrates how a couple of changes can take you from being unable to use windows vsts at medium latency to make it work at low latency. It also serves to collect my thoughts in preparation of giving the wiki an overhaul, but writing that kind of documentation is something I don't really enjoy very much, at least not until it's finished

Think I'm gonna make this thread a sticky until there is better material available.

Though I'll concede temporary defeat. The problem is that I'm not very well versed in this kind of stuff. The ALSA userspace configuration is super powerful but also somewhat of an acquired taste. It's easy to make a mistake and it's hard to know the ins and outs of it if one haven't spent a lot of time doing it. This is the first time I've tried to do something like this, but I managed to combine my onboard with the rme babyface I have available here, so it's somewhat galling that I can't make it work for you too..

Could you please provide me with the output of alsa-info.sh? If you don't have that program installed, the package is called alsa-util. That'll give me a lot of information about your system. Do remove the .asoundrc first.
Whoa, running alsa-info.sh produced a 3,755 line document. You didn't want me to post all of that here did you? I do know how it goes being determined to make stuff work though. My day gig before I retired at 60 was in IT and programming, and I was always the one who got the job of making difficult stuff work because I'd become consumed with it, thinking about it during dinner and while trying to go to sleep, but I'd always end up making it happen.

I'd do stuff like read a record from a data file, write parts of it out as a script combined with some additional commands, run the script, check a directory to see if something downloaded, open whatever it downloaded and read that until some magic string is found, then parse everything else out until you get some single element value, open the database again and then write this fabulous result to the record you started with, and so on. Somewhat like building a digital Rube Goldberg contraption.
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