It's 2022...what PC would you recommend for Reaper?

[serr]

Where is the issue exactly?

Latency setup 101:
48k sample rate is usually the sweet spot. Lowest latency with lowest CPU hit.
You need 10ms or less round trip to not perceive a lag when playing live.
Latency is the interface baseline latency + the block size you give the DAW system.

Maybe start with a 128 sample block size and see what that comes out to. Adjust down for a slower interface to come out at 10ms or lower. Leave at 128 samples if that hits the target. Measure with your own loopback test. (Record a sample from an output to an input.) Don't just read the top of the screen in Reaper.

Now with the block size set, you have the CPU power that you have with these settings. Additionally, any plugins you use MUST not have their own added latency that's higher than the block size.

^^^Where exactly in that are you hitting a wall?

[Glennbo]

Originally Posted by serr

Where is the issue exactly?

He mentioned Wdf01000.sys earlier, which is the Windows Driver Framework. If it were me, I would unplug anything connected to USB port, and make sure the BabyFace is the only USB device plugged in, and that it is directly to a USB port in the *BACK* of the machine. Front ports almost always go through hubs.

Latency setup 101:
48k sample rate is usually the sweet spot. Lowest latency with lowest CPU hit.
You need 10ms or less round trip to not perceive a lag when playing live.
Latency is the interface baseline latency + the block size you give the DAW system.

Maybe start with a 128 sample block size and see what that comes out to. Adjust down for a slower interface to come out at 10ms or lower. Leave at 128 samples if that hits the target. Measure with your own loopback test. (Record a sample from an output to an input.) Don't just read the top of the screen in Reaper.

Now with the block size set, you have the CPU power that you have with these settings. Additionally, any plugins you use MUST not have their own added latency that's higher than the block size.

^^^Where exactly in that are you hitting a wall?

Before I built my new Ryzen 3700X based DAW machine, I was running a 9 year old Intel i7 and used the same 48k, 24bit, 64 sample buffer that you are recommending, and it sounds like his machine should be able to do the same. I was running Windows 7 on that machine though, and have been running Linux for more than three years now.

[domzy]

it's a little difficult to extract the specs of the poster's machine from this thread, but i get the impression we're talking about an off-the-shelf 2.6ghz laptop with various USB peripherals , including a Babyface & a UAD Satellite?

I don't think with "24 tracks up...latency is an issue" is unexpected, and as Serr touches on, most of this is probably plugin related - compressors, limiters etc?

[bjohn]

For Windows, I find it useful to follow most of the non-Pyramix-specific settings and tweaks described in the long document here: https://confluence.merging.com/displ...+Configuration

Some of those are specific to Pyramix but many of them make sense for any DAW. It'll take some hours to implement them, but will save you dozens of hours of headaches later.

With Mac it's largely plug and play, even on M1 systems, but it depends on your plugins and equipment. There's a huge thread on experiences with M1 Macs and audio on gearspace here; lots of happy users but also lots of people experiencing problems: https://gearspace.com/board/music-co...ces-audio.html

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by GtrGeorge

Soo...exhale.....if anyone has some informed suggestions on how to reduce the latency issues..

Reaper does offer a way to reduce CPU overload based latency issues (i.e the latency you need to set to avoid crackles), by configuring a network with multiple machines: ReaMote. I did not decently check it but there are happy users, even though there are some drawbacks regarding licensing of certain plugins etc.
-Michael

[GtrGeorge]

Originally Posted by serr

Where is the issue exactly?

Latency setup 101:
......Latency is the interface baseline latency + the block size you give the DAW system.
^^^Where exactly in that are you hitting a wall?

Serr, and Everyone...I cannot thank you all enough for sharing your insights. Your experience and your encouragement.
I think I may ...just...have made a breakthrough. I just pulled up that song that had the crackle and I reduced the block size. It WAS 2500...I put it to 500.
And so far...no crackle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

I will experiment further but I am excited to see if this fixes the problems.
With so many variables...it was ESSENTIAL that Serr and others dug in and explained the rudiments so that I could try the more likely culprits first.
I am hoping Block Size was the archiles heel, in my song.

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

[domzy]

Originally Posted by GtrGeorge

I reduced the block size. It WAS 2500...I put it to 500.

worth bearing in mind that your block size should be a multiple of 32, so your babyface is probably working at 512 samples

[serr]

Yeah, successful data point and all...
Block size values want to be a multiple of 32 samples. 512 or 1024 samples are a common size to run with when low latency is not needed. (ie. not running live sound)

It turns out that there's an upper limit for block size that an interface driver might support. That can often be 2048 samples. (Usually 1024 to 4096)

I'm not sure if you ever do live work that requires low latency? You obviously aren't doing anything like that at those block sizes. I mentioned the initial steps above if you ever go there.

Stupid car analogy: You just discovered the gear shifter. The car can go much faster than you thought!

[micgao]

I've been trying to optimize for DPC latency issues on laptops for years, and the reality is that there is simply no real fix.

Outside than doing the obvious (high performance mode, disable throttling where you can, etc.), the best way to improve the situation is to disable "Microsoft ACPI-Compliant Control Method Battery" in device manager. Your laptop will no longer be able to read the status of your battery (including charge percentage and such), which is obviously... not recommended at all.

Other than that, there is some very good information in this post, and the tool provided has been the thing that in my experience helps the most. Just make sure you read the instructions very carefully. https://forums.guru3d.com/threads/wi...i-tool.378044/

But really, if you are buying a laptop with audio work in mind, just take a look at this list before you make any decisions. The easiest way to deal with the issue is to avoid the issue in the first place as much as possible...

https://www.notebookcheck.net/DPC-La....504376.0.html

[GtrGeorge]

Well its now months since that post and I still graple with latency issues and I am NOT a VSTi musician. I play guitar,bass,acoustic guitar live into Reaper DAW and just use VSTis for drums and some keys. Like maybe 2 drum kits and 2 synths MAXIMUM.
So I am not really pleased.
But I think its because of running a UAD-2 Satelitte for Fx and comporession, Even thru a USB 3.0 I think that and block size are the main culprits for ME.

I am not computer savy...but what I gather is the latency I get is inherent in the performance of my Computer..and so...even though I asked it before...
For a guy like me with a i7 6700 and an RME Babyface Pro Fs, with 2 SSDs and 6MB RAM
...
What is my next major step up in a computer?

[GtrGeorge]

Is this still valid info?

https://orbitalcomputers.com/best-cp...r-summer-2021/

I dont know (because i dont know much about computers or much about the source of this data)

What do you think??

[serr]

Originally Posted by GtrGeorge

Well its now months since that post and I still graple with latency issues and I am NOT a VSTi musician. I play guitar,bass,acoustic guitar live into Reaper DAW and just use VSTis for drums and some keys. Like maybe 2 drum kits and 2 synths MAXIMUM.
So I am not really pleased.
But I think its because of running a UAD-2 Satelitte for Fx and comporession, Even thru a USB 3.0 I think that and block size are the main culprits for ME.

I am not computer savy...but what I gather is the latency I get is inherent in the performance of my Computer..and so...even though I asked it before...
For a guy like me with a i7 6700 and an RME Babyface Pro Fs, with 2 SSDs and 6MB RAM
...
What is my next major step up in a computer?

What's the scenario where you play with live monitoring through the computer? What plugins are critical in this scenario?

The obvious step is to segregate the live work from post work. The live monitoring scenario requires a low enough latency for no perceivable lag. You aren't monitoring live in post, so set it high and forget it.

If one of the critical plugins for the live scenario is a latency hog and thus unusable (ie more latent than your live sound block size), find a substitute for playing live. Replace it with the big gun in post.

[zeekat]

Originally Posted by GtrGeorge

Is this still valid info?

https://orbitalcomputers.com/best-cp...r-summer-2021/

I dont know (because i dont know much about computers or much about the source of this data)

What do you think??

If you're into Intels 12th gen was released since then, they seem hella fast(pretty decent improvement over the 11th gen).

[GtrGeorge]

Originally Posted by serr

What's the scenario where you play with live monitoring through the computer? What plugins are critical in this scenario?................
If one of the critical plugins for the live scenario is a latency hog and thus unusable (ie more latent than your live sound block size), find a substitute for playing live. Replace it with the big gun in post.

My scenario: I record and release original music. I use VSTi for drums and a few keyboards...otherwise all guitars,basses and 12 tracks of vocals are recorded as wav files into the Reaper DAW. Afer a certain amount of tracks....latency is an issue.
For Fx..I do use the REA Fx..but also really love a few of the UA Fx that are in the outboard UAD-2 unit.

Out Live I take my recordings and play against them. Id love to have 4 guys in the band...but Venues where I am don't have the budget for that. So those recording I make HAVE TO BE GOOD. I live with them for a long time.
George A. Barry my website allow you to hear what I do
GeorgeaBarry.net

[serr]

You're not sharing details of your low latency setting for the live performance through the system parts...

"Afer a certain amount of tracks....latency is an issue."
This is still a clue. So you have the live performance latency settings and the plugins you use live under control. It's just that you cross a line at a point in post where you can no longer switch to live latency and record more.
Is that right?

The usual workaround is to render the mix element getting in the way to a stem. Then you can turn off the plugin(s) that don't work at low latency and record more. If that track you rendered needed further tweaking you can cut/paste the original back in after recording.

There are plugins that have higher latency. You can't run any plugins with a higher latency than your current block size. <- Hopefully that's silly obvious! And no matter how fast of a cutting edge computer you have.

The other option is to use a less latent similar plugin as a proxy live as I mentioned.


I was asking about your block size settings and sample rate because this can be a matter of fact conversation instead of theoretical.

For example, let's say you have to set your block size to 128 samples to achieve 8ms round trip latency with 48k sample rate. You would be restricted to plugins that don't add any more than 128 samples of latency. Not too hard to find. You could cut your block size in half to 64 samples to hit 4ms round trip. However, if you had a baseline higher latency interface, you might have to set the block size down to 64 samples just to make 8 or 9ms round trip. You'd have to drop down to 32 samples to get near your latency target. Now you're going to have trouble running just about any plugins.

That's why you shop for a faster audio interface if live sound work is your main deal. (Specifically monitoring live through the computer and fx.) And that's how you control the block size to drive your latency back and forth.

[GtrGeorge]

Its Sept 2022..and so far
based on my limited skill set, and my smallish brain

I dont see any easy way to beat the "system" right now.

If somebody comes up with a faster ,less-latency situation..I will buy it.
Until that time...I put up with latency that makes recording harder than it should be.
IMHO

GtrGeorge

[bjohn]

Originally Posted by GtrGeorge

If somebody comes up with a faster ,less-latency situation..I will buy it.
Until that time...I put up with latency that makes recording harder than it should be.

If you are only recording acoustically (no MIDI), one good choice is to use a standalone recorder and stop trying to record into a computer running a DAW. The Sound Devices MixPre-series recorders are great for this; I use mine whenever possible. Latency is a non-issue; Sound Devices also offers a Musician Plugin that turns the MixPre-series recorders into portastudios; you can do zero-latency overdubs and even punch-ins (although it's a bit awkward to set up punch-ins with the tiny screen). The Musician plugin even provides reverb for monitoring and if you like it you can burn it into the rendered files.

[serr]

Originally Posted by GtrGeorge

I dont see any easy way to beat the "system" right now.

Post a step by step of you going through the setup and then the part where you get stuck. Someone will be willing to help. Does my outline above (or the other folk's posts) make sense or does even that read like Klingon?

Originally Posted by GtrGeorge

If somebody comes up with a faster ,less-latency situation..I will buy it.

That would be a thunderbolt connecting audio interface. A TB connection will give the lowest possible baseline latency. Still shop carefully! Just like there are "budget" USB devices with poorer performance.

Again though, what block size do you have to dial down to to hit a usable latency with your current system? The actually impossible scenario would be needing so low a block size to hit the latency target that the system could no longer run. (eg. Needing to go to 32 samples)

[norbury brook]

I think your problem is the UAD satellite.

get rid of that in your projects and make sure you only use zero latency plugins and see if that's an improvement.

With a decent audio interface you shouldn't be having to use the 'block size' in reapers settings. Use the ASIO driver and set your buffer in the interface app.



unless..... you're using a mac and class compliant drives which generally aren't as good.



M

[serr]

My experience is to use the DAW control panel as first choice for sample rate and block size. Only use 3rd party if required. Reaper lets you do either. Untick the box next to block size to disable Reaper control if you want to use a different control panel.

Make sure to tick the box next to the control in Reaper to enable it or it will sit there ignoring you! (If you want to use it, that is.)

[GtrGeorge]

Its nearly a year since the last post, and I still long for a lower latency situation.

I still use Reaper, still use a UAD Satelite 2, for compressors etc and run VSTs like EZ Drummer and addicted to drums. In my mind I think the VSTis listed are part of the problem. I will run 2 instances of EZ Drummer ..so I can have the snare on a seperate channel for processing versus the kik. I think this may be a chunk of why after 20 tracks...I have issues with latency.
Serr, if you read this I don't play live gigs with my computer...I use my Dell Inspiron with Reaper to record in my home studio. But still...latency is a issue at home, when recording,mixing etc,
I hear crunchiness when the buffer is set to 64...and if alot of plugins and alot tracks...I HAVE to set it to 2048 to avoid the crunch.

Maybe NOW I can buy my way out of this problem???

[grinder]

GTRGeorge
I was using a computer rating around 3500 on bench tests.
I finally got the message and purchased parts for a new computer to assemble
The processor an Intel® Core™ i7-12700K Processor
25M Cache, up to 5.00 GHz not the fastest by any means but boy having that
has lifted my performance totally more relaxed now and the audio comes out in better time.
All I can say make one up yourself just make sure you get a really good magnifying Glass and read the manuals thoroughly, if you get tired on the build wait till the next day.

Grinder
https://soundcloud.com/steve-maitland-1/highway-73

[mschnell]

I am on Windows, so I did not do any tests yet. But M2 Macs do seem promising (as of 2023 )
-Michael

[inthevoid]

Have both Intel 12900k PC / Win 11 and Mac M2 MacBook Pro DAW rigs. Both machines run Reaper brilliantly (but the M2 is completely and utterly silent.)! Reaper maybe takes the edge slightly on Mac - the OS graphics look much better than Windows' OS graphics.

If you want to stop worrying about DPC latency altogether I'd recommend just getting a Mac. Less time worrying about whether your setup is working optimally and more time making music (at least in personal experience!)

[norbury brook]

it's a long thread so forgive me if this has been addressed.

Do you have your latent plugins bypassed when trying to record/monitor through Reaper?

There are a couple of SWS ,lua scripts that will do this, the best one is the ReaLlm

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=245445


This bypasses latent plugins ONLY on your monitor chain and leaves everything else.

Even if you're running @32 sample buffer if you have a look ahead limiter on your master you'll have latency.


regarding latency, for monitoring through Reaper I can get away with using 64 samples on my RME interface which is 1.5 ms . This is when monitoring singers with headphones, which is the most critical.

For playing Vi's 128 is OK which is still less than 5ms with RME, other makers will differ in latency for the same buffer size.

I've a feeling your UAD plugins are adding latency on top of your interface settings so I'd try a test project WITHOUT any UAD plugins first.



M

[serr]

There are a lot of unanswered questions around latency needs and settings.

I was trying to break down the scenario into:
A. The live performance stuff (eg recording with MIDI plugin using instruments)
B. The post work (ie. where latency can be set relaxed)

Then with 'A'. Where in the workflow do you break the system? (ie. get audio dropouts)

I mean specific technical answers. eg. "I get dropouts trying to run at any block size less than 64 samples."

Again, the live performance vs post thing. Playing a MIDI controller keyboard or drum machine that plays sounds in a plugin is an example of live performance. You have to hear the thing respond with no perceived latency. It's a live sound scenario.

Mixing work is post. You aren't listening to any live input. This is where you stop beating up the system with low latency settings and set it relaxed. Because you literally are not listening to a live input through the system anymore.

So again again again, what point specifically do things break?

[desol]

My old 32 bit Avid MBOX is doing the fastest latency possible. 64 samples 5.2/3.2 ms. For recording, it's workable but still noticable.

[norbury brook]

Originally Posted by desol

My old 32 bit Avid MBOX is doing the fastest latency possible. 64 samples 5.2/3.2 ms. For recording, it's workable but still noticable.

Old technology and poor drivers.

RME @64 samples is 1.3/2.0 ms which is workable for monitoring through reaper.


M

[AudioBabble]

I will run 2 instances of EZ Drummer ..so I can have the snare on a seperate channel for processing versus the kik

whaaat? is that a thing with EZ drummer? I have Superior Drummer and it allows me to route the mixer channels of ONE instance to separate outputs, no problem!

[domzy]

Originally Posted by GtrGeorge

Its nearly a year since the last post, and I still long for a lower latency situation.

I still use Reaper, still use a UAD Satelite 2, for compressors etc and run VSTs like EZ Drummer and addicted to drums. In my mind I think the VSTis listed are part of the problem. I will run 2 instances of EZ Drummer ..so I can have the snare on a seperate channel for processing versus the kik. I think this may be a chunk of why after 20 tracks...I have issues with latency.
Serr, if you read this I don't play live gigs with my computer...I use my Dell Inspiron with Reaper to record in my home studio. But still...latency is a issue at home, when recording,mixing etc,
I hear crunchiness when the buffer is set to 64...and if alot of plugins and alot tracks...I HAVE to set it to 2048 to avoid the crunch.

Maybe NOW I can buy my way out of this problem???

You could pay someone to stop you from using the UAD while tracking, that should significantly reduce your latency

[serr]

Originally Posted by desol

My old 32 bit Avid MBOX is doing the fastest latency possible. 64 samples 5.2/3.2 ms. For recording, it's workable but still noticable.

This is a great example where the audio interface is clearly the culprit and bottleneck! A faster interface should let you hit that 8 or 9 ms round trip latency with a 128 or 192 sample block size. Having to dial the computer down to 64 samples to still only be able to hit that 8 or 9 ms target would compromise any system with the fastest computer you could find.

Another great part of this example is the illustration that even though this is a worst case example it shows how it's still possible and reasonable to use this gear and get work done!

[GtrGeorge]

Originally Posted by AudioBabble

whaaat? is that a thing with EZ drummer? I have Superior Drummer and it allows me to route the mixer channels of ONE instance to separate outputs, no problem!

For me, yes..it has been an issue. Maybe I dont know HOW to seperate the out puts.
So Ive just add another instance of the EZ Drummer.
Anyone know IF EZ Drumer can do seperate output paths with just ONE drum on that signal path (like just a snare, routted to just one track in Reaper)

[GtrGeorge]

Originally Posted by domzy

You could pay someone to stop you from using the UAD while tracking, that should significantly reduce your latency

I haven't been able to trace my problems to the UAD-2 Satelite

[Stella645]

Originally Posted by GtrGeorge

For me, yes..it has been an issue. Maybe I dont know HOW to seperate the out puts.
So Ive just add another instance of the EZ Drummer.
Anyone know IF EZ Drumer can do seperate output paths with just ONE drum on that signal path (like just a snare, routted to just one track in Reaper)

Yes....same as any other multi out instrument you just need to build multichannel routing.

Not sure how up to date this is but probably close enough to get you there:
https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...83&postcount=4

[EpicSounds]

Originally Posted by GtrGeorge

For me, yes..it has been an issue. Maybe I dont know HOW to seperate the out puts.
So Ive just add another instance of the EZ Drummer.
Anyone know IF EZ Drumer can do seperate output paths with just ONE drum on that signal path (like just a snare, routted to just one track in Reaper)

https://reaper.blog/2017/07/ez-drummer-2-template/

[Mind Riot]

Okay, this is just kind of a shot in the dark but I've never been able to run multiple instances of drum VSTi's without causing things to lock up or at the very least drag everything down to a standstill with pops and crackles, and that's with interface latencies set for mixing, with plenty of time for processing like 512 samples.

I would never even try running two instances of the same drum VSTi at low latencies, and realistically I don't think I'd ever try it at all. Two instances of the same drum VSTi getting fed the same MIDI is just asking for trouble.

If you must have two instances of drum VSTi, render them out as audio items on their own tracks then disable them so your PC isn't trying to process them in real time.

Hope this helps.

[Glennbo]

Originally Posted by Mind Riot

Okay, this is just kind of a shot in the dark but I've never been able to run multiple instances of drum VSTi's without causing things to lock up or at the very least drag everything down to a standstill with pops and crackles, and that's with interface latencies set for mixing, with plenty of time for processing like 512 samples.

I would never even try running two instances of the same drum VSTi at low latencies, and realistically I don't think I'd ever try it at all. Two instances of the same drum VSTi getting fed the same MIDI is just asking for trouble.

If you must have two instances of drum VSTi, render them out as audio items on their own tracks then disable them so your PC isn't trying to process them in real time.

Hope this helps.

I've used two instances of Superior Drummer 2 in ten or more projects before with no issues at all, and that's running 48k with a 64 sample buffer. Usually I have a large drumkit loaded in one instance, and a large Latin Percussion library loaded in the other, each with multiple outputs.

It worked fine like that when I was running Windows on an i5 Intel, and still works fine now that I'm running Linux on a Ryzen 7.

[norbury brook]

Originally Posted by Glennbo

I've used two instances of Superior Drummer 2 in ten or more projects before with no issues at all, and that's running 48k with a 64 sample buffer. Usually I have a large drumkit loaded in one instance, and a large Latin Percussion library loaded in the other, each with multiple outputs.

It worked fine like that when I was running Windows on an i5 Intel, and still works fine now that I'm running Linux on a Ryzen 7.

I've been doing exactly that for years too no problem.


M

[/AND/]

Try Linux...

[desol]

Lol. I use an old Intel i7 2600k 3400mhz 4 core processor with Windows 32 bit. I can run 50 tracks with tons of compression, eq and reverb. It hardly taxes my CPU. When recording, latency is 3ms. Fast as you can expect for an older system.