Did Reaper jump the audio shark ?

[Coachz]

It seems every new version for the past couple of years is just midi oriented updates. Like the audio side has been all but abandoned. Is Reaper done trying to radically improve the audio side of things with new code to dramatically improve the audio tracking side of house, like rewriting the comping code etc... ?

[ivansc]

It only appears this way if you are a MIDIphobe, trust me!

If you look at what HAS been added and or fixed in the last few releases, it is far more a case of some very long standing MIDI bugs getting some attention, in some cases after YEARS of whining from us MiDis.

Don't be greedy and settle back down for the next Big Audio Thing, whatever it will be.

;D

[jpanderson80]

Coachz, Ok, I'm interested... What are you referring to? Is the audio quality poor somehow?

[mccrabney]

if only

[Coachz]

Originally Posted by jpanderson80

Coachz, Ok, I'm interested... What are you referring to? Is the audio quality poor somehow?

No the audio quality is not the issue. Its the audio tools and workflows that other daws offer that are so much more polished.

[Coachz]

Originally Posted by ivansc

It only appears this way if you are a MIDIphobe, trust me!

If you look at what HAS been added and or fixed in the last few releases, it is far more a case of some very long standing MIDI bugs getting some attention, in some cases after YEARS of whining from us MiDis.

Don't be greedy and settle back down for the next Big Audio Thing, whatever it will be.

;D

Its not the last few releases. Reaper seems to have forked to the midi focus for about two years now.

[EpicSounds]

Get that glasses prescription checked Coachz!

Tons of amazing professional audio focused features this year.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...3YI9aN12D00f3P

[Klangfarben]

Originally Posted by Coachz

No the audio quality is not the issue. Its the audio tools and workflows that other daws offer that are so much more polished.

I don't want to draw battle lines here or anything, but I've used Digital Performer for more than 20 years, Logic for about 15 years, Cubase/Nuendo for about 10 years and Pro Tools since the dark ages when it was Sound Tools. To this day I cannot stand the audio side of DP, Logic or Cubase. I hate the editing models, I hate the workflow and with the exception of playlists which seems to be coming to Reaper (via a couple good scripts right now and hopefully incorporated into the program later) and the Cubase/Nuendo Control Room feature , there's not a single audio feature I miss in any of those programs vs Reaper. I hated dealing with audio so much in those programs, I basically didn't use much audio in my sessions because it was a pain in the butt.

The only program I think audio is more "polished" in is Pro Tools. I prefer the editing, playlists and especially the grouping - probably the best example of grouping out there (and one I wish Reaper would emulate more). But even against Pro Tools, Reaper has much better multi-channel support and support for formats such as Dolby Atmos and Auro 3D, which is really where the film side is headed.

Under the hood, I'm finding Reaper to be immensely powerful on the audio side. Clip-based plugins? Pro Tools just added that to 12.6 but only with their channelstrip plugin. Reaper you can put any plugin you own on a clip. Mind blowing. Being able to route the audio of a multi-channel VST right back into the MIDi track itself? Incredible. And there's many more examples like this.

Right now, MIDI really is a weak point (as well as the metronome) and I think it's getting some much deserved attention. Other than that, I think Reaper's weaknesses include (in no particular order):

Grouping: I know there's lots of ways to solve grouping issues, such as automatically grouping recorded items, etc. but I think solutions are being built on an inherently flawed system. Any form of track grouping needs to have the option of grouping track data/media items in addition to everything else. This is how literally every program that groups functions. Having media items/clips have it's own grouping system is fine and a nice addition, but having the option to group media items/clips in the track group is fundamental. Also, in any large post-production template, having sub-groups is almost necessary. And while the grouping matrix is very useful, there needs to be a window that lists all the groups and subgroups that I can dock and easily enable/disable groups. If I double click on a group, that would then open up the grouping matrix where I can make further changes. But having a simple list view that is docked in a window where I can easily see and enable/disable groups/subgroups is very necessary.

Playlists: I know there has been much debate and disagreement on this one. I think again, we're trying to build on the wrong thing. Takes are intended for media items. Playlists are intended for tracks. You are never going to satisfy trying to make takes work like playlists if they aren't track based. So again, like there should be an option for including media items in track groups, there should be an option for playlists in tracks in addition to media item takes. That way, everyone is happy and we have the best of both worlds. Both have their inherent values but even though there are again, some really good scripts being done (Heda's track inspector, Sexan's Playlist script), they are being built on something intended for a different purpose and being made to try and fit the playlist model.

Interface: Reaper isn't pretty. We all know that. There are some really great themes out there (big shout out to BlankFiles' I Logic here) and I love the customization options. However, until Reaper updates its interface, the problem is you can never have a unified interface. For example, I can use I Logic and it looks fantastic but as soon as I open a JS plugin it is this horrible interface that doesn't look like anything else and that I can't really customize. A second example, Reaper has no track inspector (would be really, really nice btw) and because Reaper doesn't allow multiple mixer windows (again would be really, really nice) I'm using Heda's track inspector plugin. As useful as it is, and it's extremely useful, it looks nothing like the theme I'm using and it's very glaring. Same if I'm using any other theme. People can write all these great themes, but until there's a more unified updated interface, nothing can be unified. So as much customization as one does, there's always going to be some glaring interface mismatches.

Granted, I haven't used programs like Studio One, Sonar or Samplitude but in terms of audio features, I really haven't seen a DAW out there that has more in the way of features than Reaper. And some of the scripts like Eugen's align transients and MPL's quantize are really fantastic. I haven't been here long but if there's things you want to see, just keep posting. I have very few posts and already some of the requests I've made have made it in to the program, which to me is stunning. I've never seen that kind of thing happen besides the old emagic days where you would call with a bug and they would send you a patch the next day. It really is incredible and one of the decisions why I decided to ween myself away from the above programs. That sort of thing just doesn't exist with any of those DAWS and I've literally had direct access to some of those developers. Marketing basically controls development for those companies now. So the fact that developers here actually listen to and consider your requests and the community is so unbelievably helpful for me is worth the investment.

Sorry if I re-routed or distracted from your post. I would just say if there's specific things you want to see, make feature requests and post them. Make suggestions for how to polish features. The developers are reading and chiming in as well.

[pipelineaudio]

As a joke, I think Justin made a mode so you could hide the contents of events when they were being moved, then it can be as awesome as those alleged pro apps if you really want

[ivansc]

???? Pipe - you want to try re-posting that in English?

Coach: Everyone has their own perspective I guess. Good luck with whatever you decide does the job better than Reaper for you.

I still find Reapers MIDI functions to be somewhat awkward here and there but steadily improving.
The ONLY DAW I have uysed to any great extent that I feel has better audio editing than Reaper is Pro Tools and frankly I am not prepared to put up with the rest of it just to get the cool editing stuff.
And I have asked this quesrtion elsewhere, but could you please give me/us some idea of exactly WHAT audio editing features you think are much more polished in at least one other DAW compared to Reaper?
I am seriously interested in your perspective here, but blamket "more polished" statements dont really tell one much.

[pipelineaudio]

Early on we were joking about one of the things that PT did so poorly, yet I always had to hear its virtues from student interns, the way it hides the contents of events as you move them, so Justin made an option to just make it blocks with no waveforms like in PT

[Xenakios]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

Early on we were joking about one of the things that PT did so poorly, yet I always had to hear its virtues from student interns, the way it hides the contents of events as you move them, so Justin made an option to just make it blocks with no waveforms like in PT

To be fair, Avid has since those times fixed that and even made a point of calling that a new feature.

[ELP]

"Coachz: Its not the last few releases. Reaper seems to have forked to the midi focus for about two years now."

REAPER gets a little bit more as before to MIDI since 5.0
Official Release
REAPER v5.0 - August 12, 2015

1 year

and before... how old is REAPER
first official Release
REAPER v0.41 - December 26 2005

1 year MIDI vs 10 Years Audio

So you have to life with it, that the next 9 Years really MIDI only gets the focus^^
then it would be just 50:50.

REAPER is so complex, I really think nobody can know all REAPER possibilities,
inclusive the great REAPER programmers ^^

In contrast to unnamed xxx other DAWs, it´s one near unlimited play-field.

[ivansc]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

Early on we were joking about one of the things that PT did so poorly, yet I always had to hear its virtues from student interns, the way it hides the contents of events as you move them, so Justin made an option to just make it blocks with no waveforms like in PT

Ah! Must have taken too many "stupid" pills this morning....

[OPI]

Originally Posted by Coachz

Its not the last few releases. Reaper seems to have forked to the midi focus for about two years now.

Thank god. Was about to jump ship. These updates saved me

[esosotericmetal]

Everyone has different needs. MIDI is a big part of DAWs for a lot of people so it's important that it gets attention as well. Hopefully when that's done we'll see some love for other areas that are lacking that affect other people.

[Jack Winter]

Wait for the whining to occur once/if they complete the linux port B)

[ivansc]

I will be JUST as happy about that as I am about the stuff that is currently getting fixed in MIDI, Jack.

Windows is and always has been a pain in the ass and I would be delirious with pleasure if I could finally dump it.

[EvilDragon]

Friends with Windows here over 2 decades now. W7 was the most solid and pain-free experience ever. W10 had some growing pains, but Anniversary update fixed them all for me and I'm happy on my way. Linux was never really an option for me since lots of plugins that I use are not available for it (and probably never will be).

[noise_construct]

Originally Posted by Coachz

Its not the last few releases. Reaper seems to have forked to the midi focus for about two years now.

I don't think the development has any sort of focus or roadmap, just some coding here and there according to their own needs and whims.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

W10 had some growing pains, but Anniversary update fixed them all for me and I'm happy on my way.

Hi ED, How do I get the "Anniversary update"?

I've got a duel boot system with both Win-7 and Win-10. They both have their own SSD drive and I'm using Win-7 nearly all the time.

I know Win-10 is supposed to be automatic updates, but my default boot drive is the Win-7 drive, so I don't think I'm getting them.

But in all honesty I don't have a clue.

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by Tod

Hi ED, How do I get the "Anniversary update"?

I've got a duel boot system with both Win-7 and Win-10. They both have their own SSD drive and I'm using Win-7 nearly all the time.

I know Win-10 is supposed to be automatic updates, but my default boot drive is the Win-7 drive, so I don't think I'm getting them.

But in all honesty I don't have a clue.

You can force it, don't have the link handy. They are spreading it out a bit over a few months FYI. Least that's what I read the other day.

[karbomusic]

All I remember is hundreds of people complaining MIDI needed some attention (don't make me hunt down all the "Midi Love" threads to prove it, you guys already know they exist), so they began giving it some attention; so I'd let it go because we will run them down ever rabbit whole imaginable if they would let us. I know that, I've seen us do it for about 7 years now.

[Borodog]

Reaper is enormously capable because every capability has been carefully thought out, planned, implemented, and tested. I guarantee you there are a raft of mind blowing updates in various stages of development right now while you are pissing and moaning. Have a little patience and gratitude, imo.

[Coachz]

Originally Posted by Klangfarben

I would just say if there's specific things you want to see, make feature requests and post them. Make suggestions for how to polish features. The developers are reading and chiming in as well.

mmmmm yeah we have done that for years to mostly deaf ears with the occasional half baked bone thrown our way. It's like they have never recorded a live band with 10 musicians doing pure audio so they seem to bend towards midi worlds.

[Coachz]

Originally Posted by noise_construct

I don't think the development has any sort of focus or roadmap, just some coding here and there according to their own needs and whims.

I agree.

[Coachz]

Originally Posted by Borodog

Reaper is enormously capable because every capability has been carefully thought out, planned, implemented, and tested. I guarantee you there are a raft of mind blowing updates in various stages of development right now while you are pissing and moaning. Have a little patience and gratitude, imo.

Thanks for telling me what to do. I had no idea. "Carefully thought out"? not always.

[ivansc]

Pays yer money and tkes your choice, gents.

FWIW I have many years of experience with Cakewalks way of developing and somewhat less of Studio Ones.
I`ll take Cockos`s M.O. over either of them, thanks.
Not perfect by a long stretch and it took me about 3 years before I felt confident enough of Reapers MIDI to switch almost completely to it. (although I still sneak off to Sonar for the odd bit that is still harder to do in Reaper)
About 40-50% of what I record is MIDI & the other half is vox or acoustic or amplified instruments recorded vias mic.

I would still like to hear some suggestions as to what needs to be done with reapers audio side to make it more polished etc.
I have my issues with the current takes system and I would love a proper arrange page ala BPP but I am also a patient man considering how close to becoming a coffin-dodger I am.

[run_esc]

When I first bought Reaper a few years ago, it was all, "why no MIDI love?!" So this is kinda funny

[Tod]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

You can force it, don't have the link handy. They are spreading it out a bit over a few months FYI. Least that's what I read the other day.

Okay, thanks Karbo, I'll just sit on it for a while.

[Reason]

Originally Posted by Tod

Okay, thanks Karbo, I'll just sit on it for a while.

Link to force it in the second paragraph.
http://arstechnica.com/information-t...ntil-november/

[EpicSounds]

Originally Posted by Coachz

It's like they have never recorded a live band with 10 musicians doing pure audio…

Last I checked (yep, just double checked) you can make tracks, set inputs, and press record. Everything else you need is outside the DAW.

Instead of being vague, list the features you find are missing for live tracking, or link to previous feature requests.

[Reason]

Originally Posted by Coachz

mmmmm yeah we have done that for years to mostly deaf ears with the occasional half baked bone thrown our way. It's like they have never recorded a live band with 10 musicians doing pure audio so they seem to bend towards midi worlds.

Hey there, hamscray.

To be blunt, this is the closest I've seen in this thread, to listing what the actual problem is that you'd like to see fixed. You can't just say something sucks, you have to explain at a minimum why it sucks, and ideally how you'd like it to not suck.

I'm not saying you haven't already done that, just that I haven't seen it in this thread.

[insub]

Originally Posted by Coachz

mmmmm yeah we have done that for years to mostly deaf ears with the occasional half baked bone thrown our way. It's like they have never recorded a live band with 10 musicians doing pure audio so they seem to bend towards midi worlds.

What about this, specifically, are you having trouble with? I've never recorded that many musicians all at once, but our band was recording 22 tracks, all audio, simultaneously for every band practice for the last 4 years. I've never had even the slightest hiccup caused by REAPER. Sure, there were plenty of times I screwed it up like forgetting to hit record or check input gain prior to recording. It was always human error.

Now if only Justin could figure how to program that out of REAPER, he'd really be on to something!

[Coachz]

Originally Posted by EpicSounds

Last I checked (yep, just double checked) you can make tracks, set inputs, and press record. Everything else you need is outside the DAW.

Instead of being vague, list the features you find are missing for live tracking, or link to previous feature requests.

It was meant to be vague. I have a Join Date: of 10-24-2010 and I just miss the audio focus that we had. There are many things that could be improved that would make reaper audio side better but it's not worth rehashing because the devs do what they do and seem to be interested in midi atm. For 1 to get you started, have an option for subfolder sends to follow parent faders (along the vca vein). I'll see you in 3 years. :-)

Reaper is great but I hope for renewed audio love.

[Coachz]

Originally Posted by Reason

Hey there, hamscray.

To be blunt, this is the closest I've seen in this thread, to listing what the actual problem is that you'd like to see fixed. You can't just say something sucks, you have to explain at a minimum why it sucks, and ideally how you'd like it to not suck.

I'm not saying you haven't already done that, just that I haven't seen it in this thread.

hamscray ! hehe. I didn't write this thread to detail the many things I would fix/add. I wrote it to ask about the general direction of development. After 6 years of being here I know writing out my wish list is a fools errand.

[Coachz]

Originally Posted by insub

What about this, specifically, are you having trouble with? I've never recorded that many musicians all at once, but our band was recording 22 tracks, all audio, simultaneously for every band practice for the last 4 years. I've never had even the slightest hiccup caused by REAPER. Sure, there were plenty of times I screwed it up like forgetting to hit record or check input gain prior to recording. It was always human error.

Now if only Justin could figure how to program that out of REAPER, he'd really be on to something!

The last mix I did was 150 tracks with 70 musicians on it. Just the choir was 25 tracks. Yeah Reaper kicks butt but I'm a power user and like power features when tracking/mixing.

[EvilDragon]

Audio side is pretty solid. MIDI was messed up pretty bad since v3, so I'm very happy it's getting some focus to fix things that are important for MIDI-based production.

[Coachz]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Audio side is pretty solid. MIDI was messed up pretty bad since v3, so I'm very happy it's getting some focus to fix things that are important for MIDI-based production.

I know what you mean but there are MANY features that would be very useful. Since I don't really do any significant midi it's from a different perspective EvilDragon.

[EvilDragon]

There are many features that could be useful to any number of people and different workflows. You cannot focus on one thing only all the time when developing, otherwise it gets tiring (and to enforce that, Cockos doesn't have a firm roadmap). This was the reason why MIDI was so broken - it wasn't focused on very well, or at all. Now we have that focus, at last. Yippie. You'll just have to wait for next change of focus.