Old 11-11-2018, 06:41 PM   #1
dsealer
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Default Mic preamp question

I'd like to get some advice and feedback. I've been thinking and talking about a new preamp. I have an Art MPA PRO that I bought around 1998. As for mics that I run through it my #1 Mic is z TLM 103 and from there I've got an at 3025 (think that’s what it is) and then some low end condenser, a low end ribbon and lots of other dynamic mics. At times I run some instruments through it. So I've got my eye on 2 preamp at the moment. One is solid state the other is a tube amp. They are:
Rupert Neve Designs Portico 5024 Microphone Preamp
Manley Force

What improvements would I get with either of these amps over what I’m using now?
Does anyone recommend one of these over the other?

Thanks,
Don.....
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Old 11-12-2018, 12:02 AM   #2
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Preamps do make a difference. But it’s not quite the difference people think they might. I’d certainly rather have a high end pre than any older budget model like the ART. But that said, new budget pres can be stunningly good. And with that in mind, I’d say there are more important things to prioritise. The question is: what do you not like about the result you’re getting? In terms of difference, the source makes a massive difference, the mic a big difference, the pre and converter a subtle difference. People often buy a pre or a compressor, when what they needed to buy was a guitar or a mic.
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Old 11-12-2018, 01:25 AM   #3
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I'm with Jack on this one.
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Old 11-12-2018, 12:31 PM   #4
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Yeah... With modern electronics it's cheap & easy to make a preamp with low noise, low distortion, and flat frequency response. Most $100 - $200 interfaces have good built-in preamps. If there's a difference it's usually noise, but usually acoustic room noise dominates, especially in home studios, so the electronic noise is often not an issue.

It costs more to build a preamp with tubes and it costs a lot more to make a good preamp with tubes.

For a ribbon mic, you might need a special preamp with extra gain and extra-low noise.

Some pros like certain vintage preamps with "character" (some kind of slight "good sounding" distortion that they sometimes call "warmth"). But, any preamp with it's own sound is going to sound different from any other preamp so you can't just buy a random tube preamp... You have to choose one that you like the sound of... And, that's kinda' tough for most of us amateurs because we don't have lots of experience with lots of different preamps, and we don't have several "on the shelf" to choose from.

And, the differences are usually subtle. You're going to hear the difference if you switch mics, or if simply you change the mic position, but you may not hear a difference with a different preamp.

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Old 11-12-2018, 12:51 PM   #5
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A lot of old marketing types and "pros" claim to like the particular character of certain mic pres, but often, when they actually have to do an ABX can't tell the difference between them and hillariously, since the OP brought up Art, they so often and famously pick this cheap Art mic pre as the best, though I don't know if its the same model...The funnest part is what mic pre they THINK the Art is

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/preamp-post-mortem

Early posts at the reaper forum usually had me in front of my walls full of botique mic pres...Nowdays I'm happy with the cheapies...About to see if I can be happy with the Midas DL32 mic pres now
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Old 11-12-2018, 01:42 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
Mics/Pres should never be thought of as better/worse based on price where music/art is concerned. I've never understood that line of thought.

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It's that, when used within their intended operating ranges, to record solo piano, the contribution of the preamp is a lot smaller
Exactly, such as when people match microphones within .001 dB dead in their nominal sweet spot then go see! AKA neither is about their normal operating ranges but about how they perform in conditions we are faced with often that puts gear on it's fringes in some form; or we like the sound it makes when at its limits in addition to the choice of transparency at nominal settings - and the irony that people spend all their money on plugins to get the exact same thing that originally came from preamps, mics, transformers et al.

I'm agnostic as to whether ^that is achieved via hardware or software, just stating it's pretty obvious that people making music want more than 20-20k with low noise. As far as someone being worried they can't make a "great recording" with normal preamps, they shouldn't because they can.
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Old 11-12-2018, 02:19 PM   #7
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But even that is usually God of the Gaps fallacy and when ABX'd they still can't tell which is which.
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Old 11-12-2018, 02:56 PM   #8
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The most expensive chip on the market is the one in the FF400. It's like 5$, mainly because it is digitally controllable. A "typical" 5532 is more like 50 cents.

A discrete preamp (with transistors, not chips), will be somewhat more expensive. But not like 100 times.

And there's not much to design. With a chip, you'd better stick to the application notes. With separate transistors, there's about a dozen designs to choose from. But nothing left to "invent".

What does make a difference in price, is using hand selected transistors, better capacitors and a good board design and PSU. Again, not a 100 times more expensive. So the low end is pretty good these days.

Technically, the Neve is not good. It's very coloured, not neutral at all. But that's what some people want. And since it is expensive, it what some think is the magic part of recording. It isn't. But, as a techie, I'll admit it's somewhat impressive to have TWO trannies on the input. One toroidal and one classic. Must be good for something. Unfortunately, no explanation, except that it's good for the sound.

The Manley Force has *handwound* trannies. Not a sign of quality, but a sign of colour. And again, it's expensive. And I wonder if it's a full tube design. Only one tube per channel. That's either a lot of gain from one tube, or some discrete gain from elsewhere. Hope it's not a starved plate design.

The third kind are real tube preamps. These are a lot more expensive to construct. A transistor is 50 cents, a tube is 10$. And you need two tubes, a pair of expensive trannies and a bigger PSU. You'd also want to select the tubes as not all tubes are born equal. And, yes, there's some magic in tubes. But not in every tube. So it's a bit of a thing for the fanatics, with a drawer filled with Neumann's, Schoeps's and other magic stuff.

I still think spending >2.000$ would yield more if you spend it on mics. Maybe you could borrow or rent these preamps, to hear if they yield something for YOU, with YOUR mics?
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Old 11-12-2018, 03:24 PM   #9
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I have a 1173 clone, an original JoeMeekVC1 and 8 focusrite silver series pres in my Octopre interface.

While there IS a difference between them all, in the case of the Neve-alike and the JoeMeek any difference there is comes mostly from the ancilliaries around the actual mic pre part.
Spend your money on decent mics and worry about mic pres when you can honestly hear a significant difference.

I spent more than £2000 (g.b. pounds) on my monitors and a lot of time and money on acoustically treating my little home studio. If you havent already done some basic treatment, it will have far more of an effect on the quality of your recordings than a preamp will ever do.
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Old 11-12-2018, 03:30 PM   #10
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Quote:
Technically, the Neve is not good. It's very coloured, not neutral at all. But that's what some people want.
As I mentioned earlier, that's what an awful lot of people want based on the "saturation" market with plugins which is more than just marketing. Perfectly transparent is a bit of a false idea for a large amount of music - we learned that when digital came on the scene after all those years of dreaming how great it would be if we could get rid of analog artifacts - apparently not as much as we dreamed.

Quote:
I'll admit it's somewhat impressive to have TWO trannies on the input. One toroidal and one classic. Must be good for something. Unfortunately, no explanation, except that it's good for the sound.
Well as far as having them on the input and output... Rupert explains pretty succinctly that this all stemmed from creating end-to-end galvanic isolation as safety measure which transformers provide along with removing ground loops etc. - especially back in the days when he started (wish I could find that interview), - Rupert was terribly concerned with transparency, ironic I know but that just shows another example of what happy accidents such shortcomings provide and that often, if not almost always, 'perfection' in music isn't what we really want - it's the culmination of flaws that provide character and interest whether that's in the signal chain or the performance or whatever - actually it's the net sum of everything.

It's real easy to get into a can't see the forest due to looking too closely at the trees problem, combined with the instant satisfaction/impatience that everything must be "night and day" to have any value.
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Old 11-13-2018, 08:22 AM   #11
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Thanks everyone for the feedback. I've read it all though I must admit some of it is over my head. I'm just a 68 year old guy trying to make some music in my little studio that I can feel good about.
I get the message that you all think I'd be better served by doing something with microphones rather than a preamp. I'll consider that.

I had some reasoning behind my thoughts on a new preamp.
1. To me my vocals sound thin and an bit on the treble side of the spectrum. I'd like something that would give me a little more warmth than I'm getting now. (Maybe my 20 year old Art is worn out or weak, or maybe it's me).
2. I'd like to have more than 2 channels which is what I have now. Lately I've had a couple of friends over and as we sing and play it seems I could use more amplification ( though maybe I'm over thinking it all).

I will rethink all of this and take a look at different mics. I have my TLM 103 plus a couple of cheap XML mics (V67G condenser and R40 Ribbon). I also have an AT 3525, which I haven’t used too much on anything. Plus a couple of older Sennheiser 421's and several SM 57's as well as other dynamic mics.

I had originally considered a tube mic but then started to focus on a preamp instead. Whatever I do will not happen quickly as I'm trying to complete a “lifetime” CD project and I have some other financial obligations in the near future. I was hoping to make a gear purchase sometime around early spring. Right now I'm trying to get some feedback that will help me make a better decision, which is what you all have given me.
Thank you all, and if you have more feedback please keep it coming.

Don…..
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Old 11-13-2018, 09:27 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
As I mentioned earlier, that's what an awful lot of people want based on the "saturation" market with plugins which is more than just marketing. Perfectly transparent is a bit of a false idea for a large amount of music - we learned that when digital came on the scene after all those years of dreaming how great it would be if we could get rid of analog artifacts - apparently not as much as we dreamed.
Sure, Karbo. But from what I hear from the colour lovers, this can also be added later with a plugin.

Quote:
Well as far as having them on the input and output... Rupert explains pretty succinctly that this all stemmed from creating end-to-end galvanic isolation as safety measure which transformers provide along with removing ground loops etc. - especially back in the days when he started (wish I could find that interview), - Rupert was terribly concerned with transparency, ironic I know but that just shows another example of what happy accidents such shortcomings provide and that often, if not almost always, 'perfection' in music isn't what we really want - it's the culmination of flaws that provide character and interest whether that's in the signal chain or the performance or whatever - actually it's the net sum of everything.
These trannies are in series ("sequential" is the marketing phrase) on the input. One is a toroidal, the other is a classic transformer. AFAIK this is the only preamp in the world that has two. I've heard recordings on the Neve. I like them, but nothing struck me as different enough to warrant the price.

Of course, a typical tranny on the input and one on the output provides electrical isolation and I'm all for that.

Quote:
It's real easy to get into a can't see the forest due to looking too closely at the trees problem, combined with the instant satisfaction/impatience that everything must be "night and day" to have any value.
I spend a lot of time in that forest and know most of the trees very well. I also never lose my sense of orientation in there.

From what I've learned, most of the colour stems from transformers. But nobody seems to be able to predict what kind of colour comes from a particular transformer. Impedance, OTOH, is clear, simple and defined. And it influences the sound of a preamp/mic combo even more than the transformer.

I've also been looking at guitar pickups lately. To advise a friend who wants to start making his own pickups. Again, no science there. It's even far worse than with transformers. People go on about alnico I, III and VII, while these materials don't even exist and most pickups these days use neodymium magnets. Hence the guitars often produce a signal that distorts the guitar preamp. Another thing nobody cares about, is impedance. We both know that plays a large role in how things sound. That's why some better mic preamps have a setting for impedance. But guitarists don't even care. They go by ear. Of course, that's OK. But it's just not how my mind works. I need to understand

The strange thing is that an instrument like a standup bass, or a violin, is easier to understand for me than an electric guitar...
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Old 11-13-2018, 10:11 AM   #13
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Sure, Karbo. But from what I hear from the colour lovers, this can also be added later with a plugin.
Yea I said that, my point is that almost every single "what about a new preamp" thread gets immediately answered with the following implication: "the cheap ones pass 20-20k fine these days - I heard some like color but that isn't really important".

My point is that it is important and anyone adding preamps is exactly going to want/need color because they already have the transparent ones that came with their sound card. There is some value to a device or software that just does what it does, WITHOUT many options to deal with. IOW, contrary to popular belief, all these tweak choices can be as harmful as helpful.


Quote:
From what I've learned, most of the colour stems from transformers. But nobody seems to be able to predict what kind of colour comes from a particular transformer. Impedance, OTOH, is clear, simple and defined. And it influences the sound of a preamp/mic combo even more than the transformer.
So, the totality of color likely comes from multiple places, impedance, transformer, how hot the preamp is pushed and so on - I actually bought attenuators for a couple of preams I own that don't have output controls, so I could run them hot if I wanted without overloading the ADC. If one wants some color use gear/plugins that give it and get on with the music making - unless one is designing the gear, it's sort of silly to spend too much time trying to expose preamps as some sonic conspiracy or that a 20-20k pristine capture is all anyone needs or any inverse of that.

I have a concept I like to follow sometimes that helps me moderate my geekiness against my creative side: "If I analyze too much, I will break the spell." It doesn't matter if the mojo is in your head or the gear, it's just important that there is mojo and it will always be a little of both, don't suffocate it with details.

Quote:
I've also been looking at guitar pickups lately. To advise a friend who wants to start making his own pickups. Again, no science there. It's even far worse than with transformers. People go on about alnico I, III and VII, while these materials don't even exist and most pickups these days use neodymium magnets...
There are plenty of things "I don't think I can hear" that become noticeable under the right conditions and when I'm not "looking directly at it" - It's much like being in a near total dark room and you can see a white paper cup in the corner of your eye but when you look directly at it you can't see it (due to switching between rods/cones).

Some subtlety falls exactly into such a scenario but it's very difficult to even bring that up without getting bashed. No, I'm not an esoteric audiophile, far, far from it. I wouldn't break my back on pickups, I'd buy some I think work for me, install them and see how happy I am over time because the instant evaluation IME never tells the entire story.
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Old 11-13-2018, 10:32 AM   #14
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most pickups these days use neodymium magnets.
Ceramic, actually. A5 is a close second, A2 third. Neodumium is used but only in some models.

@dsealer:

To get more warmth maybe just EQ it a bit. You can do this after you record. Roll off highs, add some lows.

I look at transformer-based mic preamps (Neve, API, etc.) like this: you can cook with garlic or you can cook with garlic powder. Garlic powder (normal common "clean" mic preamps) are fine for the most part but if you're picky sometimes real garlic (transformer-based mic preamps) is better. You don't want to use real garlic for everything, either. Sometimes garlic powder makes more sense.

To add to that fine metaphor imagine that you have a choice between using "a minimum of one clove of real garlic" or "a minimum of a pinch of garlic powder" in a dish. Yes the real garlic can be better but if you're forced to use an amount you might not want for that dish, maybe it's better to go with the "less authentic" garlic powder. Most transformer-based mic preamps have a certain coloration all the time, even if you're trying to keep them as clean sounding as possible. It's not always welcome.

And in the case of preamps using "really clean sounding" transformers (Jensen-based), it's a little different yet. Some who love Neve type preamps really dislike preamps with Jensen transformers. API type have their own flavor too, and you either like it or you don't. It's easier to use a more generic clean mic preamp, and you'll still get great results if you have a good source. If you want to get picky then try some transformer-based mic preamps and decide if you care enough to get one or more.

I have a few transformer-based mic preamps but I've had a love/hate relationship with them sometimes. At first you want to use them for everything, until you realize how that's not the best idea (especially if you push them hard; the whole mix starts sounding mushy and less defined).

By the way, when I talk about how I like using transformer-based mic preamps, I'm not talking about pushing them hard for obvious saturation. I don't like doing that most of the time. I'm using them for the more subtle "it's there all the time" coloration of the entire preamp circuit. It's kind of nitpicky to care about this, but there are some things you can't do in software (yet/effectively). So these preamps have their place on my desk, but they're less important than my choice of mic.

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Old 11-13-2018, 10:40 AM   #15
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I agree with most of what you're saying. In your case, with your ears and with your gear, it pays off. Some people don't do rock and don't run preamps that hot, or with that much colouring going on. And you could get a very similar colour by driving a transformer too hot. You don't need to spend >2.000$ for that.

When I get audio folk in, nobody is able to discern between preamps. Not even when driven hot.

I was just reading a GS thread about three mics. The Neumann, an expensive modern one and a modest modern one. No agreement at all. But everybody agreed the Neumann sounded best AFTER the fact.

I was very glad some engineers who record jazz were talking about recording on this forum a while ago. Not everyone is into metal and likes distortion. Once out of that genre, it's a completely different world.

You'd expect classical music recordings to be made with pretty expensive gear. That's not always the case. Most of the times, over 50% of the budget goes to the mics. The rest isn't that important. Every opera recording I ever saw, was using a Mitec mixer. These are great, and not expensive at all. But the reason these got used, is not quality per se. It's because Mitec was a small German manufacturer, that was friendly enough to customise each and every mixer. Unfortunately, US marketing and Chinese prices killed Mitec.

In the rock genre, Neve is like a god. Out of the rock genre, nobody even looks at them. Don't get me wrong. Rupert Neve is a gifted designer. But it's a hype and the company is just cashing in. And that hype is preventing new companies to make a difference. Most new, innovative designers these days end up broke. The reason is they can't spend big bucks on promotion and the behemoths of the past are still lurking over their shoulder. Ready to blast the new guy out of business with any means available.

So, please, stop parroting that marketing meme. It's not like Neve and Neumann are the only choice. And they're bloody expensive. A fast track to go broke for beginners.
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Old 11-13-2018, 10:44 AM   #16
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When I get audio folk in, nobody is able to discern between preamps. Not even when driven hot.
I can tell when I'm using them, but even so...well, some more common "clean" mic preamps get some saturation when pushed too. So then the difference is more subtle because you're hearing saturation from a transformer-based mic preamp or a (strictly) transistor/opamp-based preamp. Depending on the source, it can be really tough to notice the specific differences.

Thankfully there are options for $250 these days (GAP PRE73 Jr for instance) to get a Neve-type flavor. If someone wants to take the plunge that's what I'd say to start with, if money is a concern. Just get one of those, compare for a while with different sources. Eventually 1) you'll realize that preamps aren't the most important thing as long as they're pretty good, and 2) that there is a difference and sometimes you might care about it...or not.

Also I finally now realize that even 20 years ago there were good inexpensive mic preamps right under my nose. They're kind of all over the place nowadays. The days of most mic preamps being kinda crummy, they're long gone. If someone can't get a good recording with a Behringer UMC HD, that's more on them and not the device.
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Old 11-13-2018, 10:47 AM   #17
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Apologies to the original poster for the off-topic side discussion. I wish that forum software had features for that.

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I've also been looking at guitar pickups lately. To advise a friend who wants to start making his own pickups. Again, no science there. It's even far worse than with transformers. People go on about alnico I, III and VII, while these materials don't even exist and most pickups these days use neodymium magnets. Hence the guitars often produce a signal that distorts the guitar preamp. Another thing nobody cares about, is impedance. We both know that plays a large role in how things sound. That's why some better mic preamps have a setting for impedance. But guitarists don't even care. They go by ear. Of course, that's OK. But it's just not how my mind works. I need to understand
Guitar pickups can makes a HUGE difference. And I'm not talking about boutique this or that. I think it's mostly a bunch of high-priced marketing bs. Some good old strat style or paf style alnico II pickups with vintage (lower output) to slightly hotter windings can make a crap guitar sound pretty damn nice and a real pleasure to play. The last set of pickups that I bought (a pair of humbuckers) cost me less than $40, and they sound great.

Same goes for speakers and amps. Any amp will sound crap through a crap speaker, and a nice sounding classic style speaker can make a HUGE difference (such as a greenback clone). I'm a Weber speaker fan, but pick your pleasure.
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Old 11-13-2018, 10:49 AM   #18
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So, please, stop parroting that marketing meme. It's not like Neve and Neumann are the only choice. And they're bloody expensive. A fast track to go broke for beginners.
I don't disagree with the idea but I've never seen a homeless person in a soup line who said: "I'm here because they told me expensive gear sounds better".

I know we all like to look out for the poor fellow who can't afford much and gets all stressed out but when I was that exact person - which comprise many of my recording years, I still made music with whatever I had, and I exploited what I had in interesting ways, and no matter how much I heard X sounds better, I kept making music.

That said, when my gear did improve, so did my results, for a multitude of reasons that aren't only sonic ones. The problem comes in when we try to make a spreadsheet of those reasons just so we can go "aha" when we could just find our respective paths and get on with it.
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Old 11-13-2018, 10:54 AM   #19
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Thanks everyone for the feedback. I've read it all though I must admit some of it is over my head. I'm just a 68 year old guy trying to make some music in my little studio that I can feel good about.
I get the message that you all think I'd be better served by doing something with microphones rather than a preamp. I'll consider that.

I had some reasoning behind my thoughts on a new preamp.
1. To me my vocals sound thin and an bit on the treble side of the spectrum. I'd like something that would give me a little more warmth than I'm getting now. (Maybe my 20 year old Art is worn out or weak, or maybe it's me).
2. I'd like to have more than 2 channels which is what I have now. Lately I've had a couple of friends over and as we sing and play it seems I could use more amplification ( though maybe I'm over thinking it all).

I will rethink all of this and take a look at different mics. I have my TLM 103 plus a couple of cheap XML mics (V67G condenser and R40 Ribbon). I also have an AT 3525, which I haven’t used too much on anything. Plus a couple of older Sennheiser 421's and several SM 57's as well as other dynamic mics.

I had originally considered a tube mic but then started to focus on a preamp instead. Whatever I do will not happen quickly as I'm trying to complete a “lifetime” CD project and I have some other financial obligations in the near future. I was hoping to make a gear purchase sometime around early spring. Right now I'm trying to get some feedback that will help me make a better decision, which is what you all have given me.
Thank you all, and if you have more feedback please keep it coming.

Don…..

Are you recording with the TLM103. I heard those mics can be a bit on the trebley end.

If you want a thicker low midrange, less emphasized highs, I'd look for something like a Shure SM7B, or EV RE20. Both can have a thick midrange, the EV-RE20 might be a tad bit harsher though (on at least the vocals I record). The Shure SM7B I love for warm/smooth vocals.

Both mics are very low output mics, I use a Cloudlifter CL-1 (uses phantom power to boost signal of weak dynamic and ribbon mics) with my UA Apollo to get a reasonable gain.


Both mics do lack the modern "sparkle" most associate with condensers though so that is their biggest weakness. Most clients will choose a sparkly condenser over these mics but that said, when eq'd, they can often add a character that's harder to get on a clean condenser.

That said another mic I use is the AKG C414 xls. Paired with the right voice and distance it can sound amazing, but it can be sibilant and boomy on some voices (not a good mic for people who like to get right up on mic as it emphasizes lows a little much and can sound very muddy). It is also duller than most condensers but responds well to eq. Probably not a first choice for condenser mic. Another mic I like is the AT2020. It is cheap, produces a nice high end without being too overbearing, but it does sound a bit thinner than the other mics I mentioned but produces a nice "modern" sound.


As far as preamps, I bought the UA Apollo which sounds nice and have nice preamp emulations of the UA610 if you want a little tube grit, and other preamp emulations at an additional cost.



Also if you don't want to get a new mic, you can try changing mic distance or even rotating mic face 45 degrees to side to help darken the sound.

Last edited by jlgrimes11; 11-13-2018 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 11-13-2018, 11:02 AM   #20
jlgrimes11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyrano View Post

In the rock genre, Neve is like a god. Out of the rock genre, nobody even looks at them. Don't get me wrong. Rupert Neve is a gifted designer. But it's a hype and the company is just cashing in. And that hype is preventing new companies to make a difference. Most new, innovative designers these days end up broke. The reason is they can't spend big bucks on promotion and the behemoths of the past are still lurking over their shoulder. Ready to blast the new guy out of business with any means available.
Neve 1073 is a pretty popular preamp in Rap/R&B as well.
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Old 11-13-2018, 12:54 PM   #21
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You'd be shocked at how many big time studios have that ART PRO VLA2 in their racks somewhere. Apparently version 2 was a huge upgrade and it just sounds good and if you destroy it somehow, its only $299.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swu-Q4aF-Ak&t=
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Old 11-13-2018, 01:35 PM   #22
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I got the preamp bug at one time, and did a lot of reading around and talking to people.

The consensus I picked up is that if you already have every mic you can use, and your recording space is treated acoustically to your perfect satisfaction, and if your interface/AD/DA is all you could want, then you might consider spending some money on preamps. Unless of course you have a special requirement, like a really low output ribbon mic that needs a lot of gain to get a sensible level.

It's also a matter of recording philosophy. In the analog days the distortion qualities of input hardware really made a difference to the overall sound. Nowadays, I think it makes more sense to get a really clean signal onto the hard drive, and consider "warmth" and "character" and all that after the fact.
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Old 11-13-2018, 06:02 PM   #23
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Just a little more background. I did list my microphones. My studio is pretty well treated. I installed fiber carpet padding on the walls several years ago. I also have drop ceiling panels above and the floor is carpeted. It might be a little too quiet in there. But that describes my equipment and environment.

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