Announcing ReaLearn: Sophisticated MIDI/MCU/OSC learn for REAPER

[helgoboss]

Originally Posted by nofish

Thanks.
Reading in the manual I see "Toggle-only-button" is not recommended, so I rather changed it on my controller so the buttons act as momentary.
(Just thought it's a bit quicker doing it in ReaLearn but I rather went with the proper way.)



I get this (I think), but thing is I'd like to use the projection feature for this setup so I started with a controller preset even though it's not (directly) reuseable for other projects.

Be aware, controller presets the way I intended them usually only have virtual targets. Giving them real targets is possible but kind of working against the purpose of the controller compartment.

[sclobster]

Hi there,

Firstly thanks so much for this incredible tool.

This relates a bit to what Gass n Klang is saying above. In my case realearn instances in background tabs still seem to be active even when 'Run background projects' is disabled. Is this how it should work?

My ideal situation would be for my midi controller to only affect the currently active project tab. And then when I switch tabs I'd like it to send out knob feedback for the newly selected tab only. (currently it seems like all the background tabs are also sending feedback when I switch).

Do you have any advice?

Many thanks,

[helgoboss]

Originally Posted by sclobster

Hi there,

Firstly thanks so much for this incredible tool.

This relates a bit to what Gass n Klang is saying above. In my case realearn instances in background tabs still seem to be active even when 'Run background projects' is disabled. Is this how it should work?

My ideal situation would be for my midi controller to only affect the currently active project tab. And then when I switch tabs I'd like it to send out knob feedback for the newly selected tab only. (currently it seems like all the background tabs are also sending feedback when I switch).

Do you have any advice?

Many thanks,

Oh really, even if not running background projects? I would need to look into that. Not how it's supposed to be. But yeah, if it's only the feedback direction, I know why it might do that. Best if you create a bug ticket on GitHub. Then you can be notified when it's solved. Might find some time to look at it on the weekend.

[sclobster]

Originally Posted by helgoboss

Oh really, even if not running background projects? I would need to look into that. Not how it's supposed to be. But yeah, if it's only the feedback direction, I know why it might do that. Best if you create a bug ticket on GitHub. Then you can be notified when it's solved. Might find some time to look at it on the weekend.

Awesome, thanks so much for the quick response.

I've created a bug ticket - https://github.com/helgoboss/realearn/issues/657

I don't think it is only the feedback direction. Even with feedback disabled moving a controller affects the targets in all the project tabs.

[Vladistone]

Originally Posted by sclobster

Awesome, thanks so much for the quick response.

I've created a bug ticket - https://github.com/helgoboss/realearn/issues/657

I don't think it is only the feedback direction. Even with feedback disabled moving a controller affects the targets in all the project tabs.

Perhaps it affects my problem described above?!
https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...postcount=2411

[helgoboss]

Originally Posted by sclobster

Awesome, thanks so much for the quick response.

I've created a bug ticket - https://github.com/helgoboss/realearn/issues/657

I don't think it is only the feedback direction. Even with feedback disabled moving a controller affects the targets in all the project tabs.

I'm thinking about introducing a per-instance menu "Stay active when project in background" with the following options:

a. "Never"
b. "Only if background project is running"
c. "Always (as far as possible)"

That should cover every use case. Recently I wished there would be option a so I could hear audio from the other project tab but not control it anymore. Option b is how I thought it worked so far but doesn't really. Option c could be interesting for people who want to keep the current behavior (which is a bit inconsistent because I think it works when you choose a device as input or output but doesn't work if you choose FX input/output).

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by helgoboss

Recently I wished there would be option a so I could hear audio from the other project tab but not control it anymore.

How does ReaRoute correspond to that?

BTW.: Do you know of any method to route Mid between Tabs ? E.g. for controlling the other Tab by a ReaLearn instance running over there.
Maybe such is already available somehow or maybe a plugin or extension could provide it ?

(I suppose it's possible to route Midi out and back via LoopMidi, but that seems very clumsy.)

Edit:
Perhaps this is even possible by a JSFX using shared memory. I could try....

Thanks,
-Michael

[Gass n Klang]

Originally Posted by helgoboss

Oh really, even if not running background projects? I would need to look into that. Not how it's supposed to be. But yeah, if it's only the feedback direction, I know why it might do that. Best if you create a bug ticket on GitHub. Then you can be notified when it's solved. Might find some time to look at it on the weekend.

hmm there is another problem. If I bypass fx chain, realearn behaves as it was active. If I bypass realearn then all my mapped parameters jump to a weird value (all faders to -infinity, all channels to mute, all fx to off and all pannings to hard left)

[helgoboss]

Originally Posted by Gass n Klang

hmm there is another problem. If I bypass fx chain, realearn behaves as it was active. If I bypass realearn then all my mapped parameters jump to a weird value (all faders to -infinity, all channels to mute, all fx to off and all pannings to hard left)

Yes, ReaLearn ignores "All track FX disabled". You need to disable it explicitly. Disabling also means "I don't want to see any feedback anymore, so please switch all feedback off". These are the values that you see reflected on your x32. It's supposed to work that way.

You are using ReaLearn's feedback path to control your device. In that case, this behavior is probably undesired. You can work around it by making sure you enable another ReaLearn instance at the same time that refers to the same faders/LEDs of your x32. This one will "take over" and send its current fader/LED values. If you want to leave the x32 untouched when disabling a ReaLearn instance, then it's time for an FR because there's no easy way to achieve this.

[helgoboss]

Originally Posted by mschnell

How does ReaRoute correspond to that?

BTW.: Do you know of any method to route Mid between Tabs ? E.g. for controlling the other Tab by a ReaLearn instance running over there.
Maybe such is already available somehow or maybe a plugin or extension could provide it ?

(I suppose it's possible to route Midi out and back via LoopMidi, but that seems very clumsy.)

Edit:
Perhaps this is even possible by a JSFX using shared memory. I could try....

Thanks,
-Michael

Not sure about ReaRoute. I think routing MIDI via JSFX could work.

[Gass n Klang]

Originally Posted by helgoboss

You are using ReaLearn's feedback path to control your device. In that case, this behavior is probably undesired. You can work around it by making sure you enable another ReaLearn instance at the same time that refers to the same faders/LEDs of your x32.

I don't really get it. On my x32 as in Reaper all faders are at 0dbfs. If I bypass realearn, then my x32s faders (and pans, mutes, EQs etcs) jump to off/-infinity even if reaper stays where it was. I don't understand why these commands are sent when I just bypass the plugin. Unforunatly I cannot enable another realearn at the same time. There are many OSC commands lost when sending contrary commands in a short amount of time (I have about 300 parameters linked at the moment).

Disbaling "Enabled for feedback" works (and does exactly what I'd expect when I bypass Realearn - nothing) but that sadly cannot be done via action or automation.

[helgoboss]

Originally Posted by Gass n Klang

I don't really get it. On my x32 as in Reaper all faders are at 0dbfs. If I bypass realearn, then my x32s faders (and pans, mutes, EQs etcs) jump to off/-infinity even if reaper stays where it was. I don't understand why these commands are sent when I just bypass the plugin. Unforunatly I cannot enable another realearn at the same time. There are many OSC commands lost when sending contrary commands in a short amount of time (I have about 300 parameters linked at the moment).

Disbaling "Enabled for feedback" works (and does exactly what I'd expect when I bypass Realearn - nothing) but that sadly cannot be done via action or automation.

Well, as I said, ReaLearn was not intended for your use case. If you think about how it's used normally (use the device to control REAPER and get LED/motorized feedback), then the current behavior is exactly what one would want.

Why not create an FR as suggested?

[onewayout]

Originally Posted by helgoboss

Be aware, controller presets the way I intended them usually only have virtual targets. Giving them real targets is possible but kind of working against the purpose of the controller compartment.

Hello helgoboss,

I've been wondering can this system be used on other DAWs?

Thx, Jeff

[Gass n Klang]

Originally Posted by helgoboss

Why not create an FR as suggested?

Alright I did a feature request. I'm just searching for solutions as I need that system running with a fully programmed show until end of september at the latest. So I just needed to figure out if there is a solution or if I need to move to another solution (Ableton Live).

I'd love to stick with realearn as it's a great piece of software that fits my needs quite well. I have one more idea that could fix my problem. Fingers crossed.

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by helgoboss

Not sure about ReaRoute. I think routing MIDI via JSFX could work.

From your Video on Playtime 2 I learned that same can run a "Clip" (whatever this exactly might be) without using the Reaper play mode. (I do suppose that this is a software/action/ReaLearn controllable feature.)

This also might be a good option for background tracks !

-Michael

[helgoboss]

Originally Posted by onewayout

Hello helgoboss,

I've been wondering can this system be used on other DAWs?

Thx, Jeff

As it is, no. The core of ReaLearn is designed to be DAW-agnostic, so it could be adjusted to work in other DAWs. But it would highly depend on how extensible the other DAW is ... if the other DAW doesn't provide the necessary APIs, then there's no way. Maybe only parts of ReaLearn would work (e.g. only some targets). And of course, other DAWs have different concepts, so most likely we would have vastly different (and probably less versatile) targets. I chose REAPER because it's the most extensible DAW.

Originally Posted by Gass n Klang

Alright I did a feature request. I'm just searching for solutions as I need that system running with a fully programmed show until end of september at the latest. So I just needed to figure out if there is a solution or if I need to move to another solution (Ableton Live).

I'd love to stick with realearn as it's a great piece of software that fits my needs quite well. I have one more idea that could fix my problem. Fingers crossed.

I might be able to look into it on Thursday. Pretty busy with preparing a show as well.

Originally Posted by mschnell

From your Video on Playtime 2 I learned that same can run a "Clip" (whatever this exactly might be) without using the Reaper play mode. (I do suppose that this is a software/action/ReaLearn controllable feature.)

This also might be a good option for background tracks !

-Michael

Yes, if background tracks are your concern, that is an alternative. There are many ways to do background tracks. You could also use ReaSamplomatic. Or for my current live setup, I simply have markers in my project and use ReaLearn to jump to the appropriate markers. Works quite well.

[onewayout]

Originally Posted by helgoboss

As it is, no. The core of ReaLearn is designed to be DAW-agnostic, so it could be adjusted to work in other DAWs. But it would highly depend on how extensible the other DAW is ... if the other DAW doesn't provide the necessary APIs, then there's no way. Maybe only parts of ReaLearn would work (e.g. only some targets). And of course, other DAWs have different concepts, so most likely we would have vastly different (and probably less versatile) targets. I chose REAPER because it's the most extensible DAW.

Thx helgoboss, great system for sure!

[Gass n Klang]

Originally Posted by helgoboss

I might be able to look into it on Thursday. Pretty busy with preparing a show as well.

That would be EXTREMLY helpful. I have everything else prepared, but that missing behaviour breaks my neck at the moment

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by helgoboss

Or for my current live setup, I simply have markers in my project and use ReaLearn to jump to the appropriate markers. Works quite well.

Yep. needs just a single track. Nice.

-Michael

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by helgoboss

I think routing MIDI via JSFX could work.

Yep. Done by a pair of JSFXes.
-Michael

[nofish]

I'd like to edit the same ReaLearn preset(s) from different PCs (in other words, have them synced across devices).
Since ReaLearn presets have a fixed install location I can't simply put them in say a Dropbox folder and work from there.

I'm thinking about putting the actual preset files in Dropbox and creating hard-/symbolic links to it from the ReaLearn presets directories (<REAPER install dir>/Data/helgoboss/realearn/presets/...), would that work or this there another option?

edit:
Hm...seems neither sym- nor hardlinks are picked up in ReaLearn's presets dropdown?

edit2:
Ok, seems to have been a preset reading/refresh issue.
After I saved a new preset from within ReaLearn I can now also see the hard linked preset in the dropdown, yay.
(Sym links don't seem to work though.)

edit3:
Doh, only half success.
On one PC I have the Dropbox folder installed on a different partition than Reaper, so I'd need to use a sym link in this case (as hard links don't work across file systems afaik).
Is there a way sym links could get picked up by ReaLearn's preset dropdown?

[helgoboss]

Originally Posted by nofish

I'd like to edit the same ReaLearn preset(s) from different PCs (in other words, have them synced across devices).
Since ReaLearn presets have a fixed install location I can't simply put them in say a Dropbox folder and work from there.

I'm thinking about putting the actual preset files in Dropbox and creating hard-/symbolic links to it from the ReaLearn presets directories (<REAPER install dir>/Data/helgoboss/realearn/presets/...), would that work or this there another option?

edit:
Hm...seems neither sym- nor hardlinks are picked up in ReaLearn's presets dropdown?

edit2:
Ok, seems to have been a preset reading/refresh issue.
After I saved a new preset from within ReaLearn I can now also see the hard linked preset in the dropdown, yay.
(Sym links don't seem to work though.)

edit3:
Doh, only half success.
On one PC I have the Dropbox folder installed on a different partition than Reaper, so I'd need to use a sym link in this case (as hard links don't work across file systems afaik).
Is there a way sym links could get picked up by ReaLearn's preset dropdown?

Surprised symlinks don't work. That's what I would use as well. You are on Windows?

[nofish]

Originally Posted by helgoboss

Surprised symlinks don't work. That's what I would use as well. You are on Windows?

Yes, Win10.
I now double-checked, hard links working fine, but I can't get symlinks to work (they're not 'seen' in ReaLearn's preset dropdown).
I'm using Link Shell Extension to create them.
I realised I can't use hard links anyway because hard linking the same file across PCs oviously doesn't work, so would be nice if symlinks could get to work.

edit:
Here it is visually, only the hard link shows up:



Btw. related to the feedback issue with projection, an addition:
I noticed that feedback for buttons works immediately, but not for multis.
But when I toggle a button it seems to trigger a redraw and then the multi is also updated.
In the screencap I first turn a multi (rotary), nothing happens immediately, but then when I toggle a button the update can be seen.

[Gass n Klang]

Originally Posted by helgoboss

I might be able to look into it on Thursday.

Did you have the time? If not: do you think you will be able to fix that within the next 3 weeks? Then I'll carry on preparing the band setup and songs using realearn. Would be great to have some planning certainty if that's possible.

[helgoboss]

Originally Posted by Gass n Klang

Did you have the time? If not: do you think you will be able to fix that within the next 3 weeks? Then I'll carry on preparing the band setup and songs using realearn. Would be great to have some planning certainty if that's possible.

So far, I fixed the "bypassing ReaLearn via automation doesn't have an effect" issue (#659) and added an option to not reset feedback when releasing the source (#658, to enable vice-versa control). These changes I can release tomorrow.

Now I have a look at #657 (making ReaLearn in background inactive when "Run background projects" is disabled). I think it won't take long to fix it but I can't promise anything.

[Gass n Klang]

Thanks! I think this will help a lot. Hope to be able to have a look at it on Thursday.

[helgoboss]

Originally Posted by nofish

I get this (I think), but thing is I'd like to use the projection feature for this setup so I started with a controller preset even though it's not (directly) reuseable for other projects.

In order to use projection, you need the controller compartment, true. But you don't need to create a preset (since ReaLearn 2.13 or so) and you don't need real targets in your controller compartment! Just create virtual targets, that's the whole point of that compartment.

[helgoboss]

Originally Posted by Vladistone

good day Helgoboss!
Tell me what is the reason for this behavior of reaper on realearn settings of in FX monitoring?
The controller is "DAW controller" configured in main compartment set - MCU+XT.
There are two realearn instances in the FX chain that use the same controller sources, but with different feedback targets
FX1 - reaper MCU control
FX2 - external tone generator
they are configured to alternately turn on / off by "realearn enable / disable instance" (when the first one is enabled, the second one is disabled).
but according to the behavior of the targets, they does not adequately:
- when FX 1 is disabled - when switching controller buttons (for example: bank select) Reaper continues to react as if FX1 is on!
- at the same time at the same time reacts to the bank select and the tone generator.
FX1 mapping set to virtual sources
FX2 mapping is set to absolute events (Note ON - Note OFF) of the that buttoms. And if I translate the FX2 mappings to virtual sources, it stops responding when this instance is enabled and FX1 is disabled.

what could be the reason for this behavior of the FX chain in FX monitoring?

in addition to the above mentioned:
I noticed that correct changes in the state of turning on and off FX instances are possible only if you switch from the active Reaper / FX-chain window to other computer windows, and back to Reaper. only after such manipulations does the switching between the actions of Realearn instances take place.
Can you please tell me why this does not happen automatically in the active FX chain window?

reagards, Vladistone

I was able to reproduce this, thanks. Created an issue: https://github.com/helgoboss/realearn/issues/676

[helgoboss]

Originally Posted by nofish

edit:
Here it is visually, only the hard link shows up:

More info here: https://github.com/helgoboss/realearn/issues/674

[helgoboss]

Released ReaLearn 2.14.0-pre.1 (ReaPack installation instructions)

Changes:
- Migrated to Rust 1.63.0
- #670 Added display type "Studiologic SL Keyboard display" for showing arbitrary text on the keyboard (tested with SL88)
- #660 Added display types "X-Touch Mackie LCD" and "X-Touch Mackie LCD XT" for enabling LCD color support when certain X-Touch devices are in MCU mode
- #657 Added various options to decide whether to keep ReaLearn active if its project tab is in the background (accessible via right-click menu)
- #627 Added option to play sound when target has been invoked successfully ("Beep on success" checkbox at the bottom left of the mapping panel, great for trigger-like targets such as saving a snapshot)
- #648 Added target "Track: Enable/disable parent send" (great for MIDI routing in the context of song switching)
- #658 Added option to prevent resetting feedback when releasing sources (accessible via right-click menu, good for using REAPER/ReaLearn as a remote control for hardware devices)
- #635 Added stop function to be used in control transformation formulas to emit a target value and stop the currently running transition at once
- #677 Added context menu entry "Open preset folder"
- Added "Retrigger" option to target "FX parameter: Set value" (sets parameter even if it already has desired value)
- #675 Improved preset loading by supporting placing preset files in sub directories (1 level, ATTENTION: The parent directory will become part of the preset ID, so don't move existing presets!)
- #674 Improved preset loading by supporting symlinked preset files
- #630 Improved target "ReaLearn: Load mapping snapshot" by respecting the "Reverse" checkbox when loading the default value (great for changing the perspective when it comes to on/off targets)
- #639 Improved usability of the snapshot targets by displaying the snapshot ID in the row label
- #666 Improved usability of source "ReaLearn parameter" by displaying the parameter index in the row label
- #626 Improved usability of source "ReaLearn parameter" by making the parameter learnable
- #671 Improved usability by making text feedback available with dummy target (great for sending just some constant text or using placeholders that don't need target context)
- #629 Improved usability by displaying session ID in the status bar (should help detecting duplicate IDs, which can be useful e.g. when using projection)
- #628 Improved target "ReaLearn: Load mapping snapshot" by enabling feedback (showing if the desired snapshot is currently loaded or not)
- #644 Improved versatility of target "Project: Invoke REAPER action" by making trigger-like actions controllable by relative endless encoders (via invocation mode "Trigger")
- #640 Improved target "ReaLearn: Take mapping snapshot" by adding the "Last loaded" selector (great for assigning a particular button to update the currently loaded snapshot)
- #631 Fixed saving of snapshot IDs in target "ReaLearn: Take mapping snapshot"
- #663 Fixed feedback of target "Marker/region: Go to" (it was changing even when playback was stopped)
- #659 Fixed ReaLearn still being active when disabling it via its automatable "Bypass" parameter (as opposed to disabling it via checkbox or ReaScript)
- #652 Fixed deletion of mapping snapshots when copying and pasting a compartment
- #673 Fixed "mapping not found" error when removing a mapping while still learning it
- #678 Fixed infinite error loop and certain "track is not available"-like errors
- #676 Fixed change detection for FX on the monitoring FX chain (most importantly enable/disable, in general ReaLearn should now work much better when targeting monitoring FX and also work better if it's placed on the monitoring FX chain itself)

[Gass n Klang]

Sounds great, thanks! Hope to have a look at it this evening.

[Gass n Klang]

Originally Posted by helgoboss

- #658 Added option to prevent resetting feedback when releasing sources (accessible via right-click menu, good for using REAPER/ReaLearn as a remote control for hardware devices)

this one works well!

Originally Posted by helgoboss

#659 Fixed ReaLearn still being active when disabling it via its automatable "Bypass" parameter (as opposed to disabling it via checkbox or ReaScript)

I don't get this one running.

[helgoboss]

Originally Posted by Gass n Klang

I don't get this one running.

Oh, I added support for the "Bypass" parameter itself and I was assuming if it works for it, it would also work with automation but didn't try that. Yes, turns out it doesn't work when it's automated. Looking into it.

[nofish]

Originally Posted by helgoboss

Released ReaLearn 2.14.0-pre.1

Thank you for symlink support.
Seems to be working well so far.

Originally Posted by helgoboss

In order to use projection, you need the controller compartment, true. But you don't need to create a preset (since ReaLearn 2.13 or so) and you don't need real targets in your controller compartment! Just create virtual targets, that's the whole point of that compartment.

Not sure I get this correctly (still wrapping my head around the virtual sources/targets concept).
So what I did for this project (example mapping), seems to working well so far:
Controller compartment:


Main compartment:


Are you suggesting I should do this just without creating a controller preset?
Or something else?

[helgoboss]

Originally Posted by nofish

Thank you for symlink support.
Seems to be working well so far.



Not sure I get this correctly (still wrapping my head around the virtual sources/targets concept).
So what I did for this project (example mapping), seems to working well so far:
Controller compartment:


Main compartment:


Are you suggesting I should do this just without creating a controller preset?
Or something else?

This is exactly the right way to do it. Your controller mapping has a virtual target and your main mapping a virtual source - they are connected and projection should work. All I'm saying is that you don't need to save this as a preset - it should work even without saving your mappings as preset.

[nofish]

Originally Posted by helgoboss

This is exactly the right way to do it. Your controller mapping has a virtual target and your main mapping a virtual source - they are connected and projection should work. All I'm saying is that you don't need to save this as a preset - it should work even without saving your mappings as preset.

Yes, projection works fine with this setup (well, apart from the refresh issue, any thoughts on this btw.?), just wanted to make sure I got it correctly, thanks.

[helgoboss]

Originally Posted by nofish

Yes, projection works fine with this setup (well, apart from the refresh issue, any thoughts on this btw.?), just wanted to make sure I got it correctly, thanks.

No thoughts on the refresh issue. It will probably take a while until I get some time to improve the projection feature.

[nofish]

Originally Posted by helgoboss

No thoughts on the refresh issue. It will probably take a while until I get some time to improve the projection feature.

Ok, understood.
Just curious, is that the way it's expected currently (that feedback for projection only works with virtual buttons, but not with virtual multis/encoders edit: or rather, is updated/visible immediately), or is it an issue just on my side, then I'd try to look into it further?

[helgoboss]

Originally Posted by nofish

Ok, understood.
Just curious, is that the way it's expected currently (that feedback for projection only works with virtual buttons, but not with virtual multis/encoders edit: or rather, is updated/visible immediately), or is it an issue just on my side, then I'd try to look into it further?

It's supposed to work immediately, just like normal feedback. I don't know why it doesn't update in your case.

[Gass n Klang]

any plans when the new beta will be online? (bypass automation fix)