Old 10-02-2019, 11:02 AM   #1
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Default Scheps Rear Buss technique

How am I just now trying this? It's the serious business, I tellsya.

It's so easy to set up as well.

I happen to use a mix template devised by the Very Reverend Tod and the rear buss slots right into it.

You gotsa tries it, yo!
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Old 10-02-2019, 06:19 PM   #2
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How am I just now trying this? It's the serious business, I tellsya.

It's so easy to set up as well.

I happen to use a mix template devised by the Very Reverend Tod and the rear buss slots right into it.

You gotsa tries it, yo!
Hey my friend, ha ha, I'm probably missing something, but what is the "Scheps Rear Buss technique"?
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Old 10-02-2019, 06:35 PM   #3
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Yea, not so cool making us google things ourselves OP... Apparently it's a parallel buss with an 1176LN that gets everything but the drums:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-m...technique.html

Why the hell is it called that? Who knows. Guess I have to try it to see what it's all about.
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Old 10-02-2019, 09:49 PM   #4
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Why the hell is it called that?
I'm guessing it's called the rear bus technique because on an SSL console (most of which were quad and had a left and right 'rear' bus as well as left and right 'front' bus that you could route to pre master fader) you'd use the 'rear' bus in parallel to the 'front' bus to achieve this technique. Also heard it referred to as 'back busing'...
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Old 10-02-2019, 10:02 PM   #5
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Ah well that makes more sense. Thanks.
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Old 10-03-2019, 09:22 AM   #6
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Yea, not so cool making us google things ourselves OP... Apparently it's a parallel buss with an 1176LN that gets everything but the drums:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-m...technique.html

Why the hell is it called that? Who knows. Guess I have to try it to see what it's all about.
Aah yes, I saw that illustrated some years ago and I've done that a few times. However, I don't really have a definitive answer on the outcome.

I've also got a Waves plugin called "Scheps Omni Channel", and it has EQs, Filters, Gate, Compressor, and other types effects. It's a nice plugin.
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Old 10-03-2019, 09:41 AM   #7
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You're putting the compressed stereo pair in the rears and the parallel uncompressed stereo pair in the front?

The compressed pair will be where the sound seems to originate from... Is this intentionally something placed in the rear in surround?

I had a recent recording of a saxophone duo that I recorded in simple close stereo with two TLM-193 mics. I've been making surround mixes along with stereo from the recordings I've been making at this club. So for this one I put the compression bus I dialed up for that pair in the fronts and then the uncompressed parallel bus in the rears for a quad surround mix.
Everything can't be perfectly discrete... Sounds right.
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Old 10-03-2019, 09:58 AM   #8
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This has nothing to do with placement - "rear" in this case is referring to an additional set of buses on SSL consoles that (AFAIK) typically go unused in a stereo mix.
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Old 10-03-2019, 11:20 AM   #9
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He's actually using UAD 1176 Anniversary edition plugin for this, 2:1 ratio, multi-mono, he said that it was the last thing that he struggled to find to replace what he did on the console cause all other 1176 to him didn't sound right, except this particular version. What's strange is that he NEVER looks at the meters, how much gain reduction he is getting, so on some mixes, the needle isn't moving AT ALL (and not just for the Rear buss, for a lot of other compressors, too). I just met Andrew a week ago and it was amazing seeing him work and explain a lot of these things, and he's very very stress-free, just uses his ears, and uses what sounds good to him.

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Yea, not so cool making us google things ourselves OP... Apparently it's a parallel buss with an 1176LN that gets everything but the drums:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-m...technique.html

Why the hell is it called that? Who knows. Guess I have to try it to see what it's all about.
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Old 10-03-2019, 11:49 AM   #10
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He's actually using UAD 1176 Anniversary edition plugin for this, 2:1 ratio, multi-mono,
Oh hi there, lurker... Heheh, j/k but what's "multi-mono?"
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Old 10-03-2019, 02:21 PM   #11
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Oh hi there, lurker... Heheh, j/k but what's "multi-mono?"
Not stereo linked compressors, but separate detection and gain reduction for L & R.

Scheps only panned centre or hard left/right on his Neve (set up for quad, using the pair of 1176's on the rear bus as described above by Tone Ranger) because other pan positions introduced noise.

Beware of the phantom centre moving around a bit with unlinked compressors.
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Old 10-03-2019, 11:25 PM   #12
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like Judders said, he's using it that way so that for instance, if something louder comes on one side (eg. a crash hit on the left) it doesn't compress both sides equally to accommodate the higher incoming volume, as it would if it was stereo linked

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Oh hi there, lurker... Heheh, j/k but what's "multi-mono?"
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Not stereo linked compressors, but separate detection and gain reduction for L & R.

Scheps only panned centre or hard left/right on his Neve (set up for quad, using the pair of 1176's on the rear bus as described above by Tone Ranger) because other pan positions introduced noise.

Beware of the phantom centre moving around a bit with unlinked compressors.
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Old 10-04-2019, 01:26 PM   #13
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I experimented with a few comps: V-Comp, CLA-76, 10db, PSP Busspressor, pretty much all the compressors/limiter plugins I have.

The CLA-76 made the best sound for me. As per Tod's template, Reaper master buss only receives from an empty sub-buss. I sent the rear buss out to it.

The effect was a bump in intelligibility in everything. It also adds a bit of dynamic movement, which is always welcome. The mix breathes better. I don't mean in the pumping sense. You feel the rise and fall of the piece so much better. I probably mis-characterized the effect as "smashing." The compressor's just being run over a road full of potholes.
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Old 10-05-2019, 09:31 AM   #14
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I experimented with a few comps: V-Comp, CLA-76, 10db, PSP Busspressor, pretty much all the compressors/limiter plugins I have.

The CLA-76 made the best sound for me. As per Tod's template, Reaper master buss only receives from an empty sub-buss. I sent the rear buss out to it.

The effect was a bump in intelligibility in everything. It also adds a bit of dynamic movement, which is always welcome. The mix breathes better. I don't mean in the pumping sense. You feel the rise and fall of the piece so much better. I probably mis-characterized the effect as "smashing." The compressor's just being run over a road full of potholes.
I believe the CLA 76 detector sums the input, so if you want a more authentic Scheps rear bus technique then you might try having separate left and right busses to give you stereo compression.
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Old 10-05-2019, 09:43 AM   #15
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I believe the CLA 76 detector sums the input, so if you want a more authentic Scheps rear bus technique then you might try having separate left and right busses to give you stereo compression.
Or get the IK Black-76, which can do L/R and M/S. It sounds pretty good too.
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Old 10-05-2019, 01:44 PM   #16
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Instead of setting up sends from every track, why not just set up a buss with everything but the drums on it, and create a send from that to the "crushing" track?
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Old 10-05-2019, 02:44 PM   #17
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Instead of setting up sends from every track, why not just set up a buss with everything but the drums on it, and create a send from that to the "crushing" track?
Now I'm confused. The buss with everything but the drums is the "crushing track," no? And that's the same thing as setting up sends from every track (except drums). Then they all end up at the master.

Btw, if you find creating sends is a chore, just use the cue buss generator instead.
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Old 10-06-2019, 05:12 PM   #18
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I believe the CLA 76 detector sums the input, so if you want a more authentic Scheps rear bus technique then you might try having separate left and right busses to give you stereo compression.
Thanks for the tip! I wasn’t aware the CLA-76 stereo summed l/r. I thought about which of my comps had dual mono functionality and I came up with MJUC.

I started with the Vintage Limiter preset (love presets). This immediately added the chunkiness to the low-mids I had been searching for. More accurately it brought together all the individual mix choices I'd made in the way I wanted.
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Old 10-07-2019, 07:40 AM   #19
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Now I'm confused. The buss with everything but the drums is the "crushing track," no? And that's the same thing as setting up sends from every track (except drums). Then they all end up at the master.

Btw, if you find creating sends is a chore, just use the cue buss generator instead.
LOL, yes, you have a point there!

I should have been clearer. I was just wondering whether sending all the individual tracks would be any different from, for example, just sending from a few folders that include all the tracks.
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Old 10-07-2019, 09:19 AM   #20
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I was just wondering whether sending all the individual tracks would be any different from, for example, just sending from a few folders that include all the tracks.
Not necessarily, but you have to be careful using folders as busses. If your child tracks have post-fader fx sends, using the fader on the parent track changes the wet/dry balance, since it only affects the child level and not the sends level.

It should be the same thing as long as you don't try to do any processing or level adjustments on the parent folders (using them purely for organization).
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Old 10-07-2019, 10:09 AM   #21
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but you have to be careful using folders as busses. If your child tracks have post-fader fx sends, using the fader on the parent track changes the wet/dry balance, since it only affects the child level and not the sends level.
It's the same issue with busses fyi.
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Old 10-07-2019, 10:20 AM   #22
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It's the same issue with busses fyi.
This shit never ceases to be confusing... How is it the same issue? Buss volume doesn't affect any other volume.
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Old 10-07-2019, 10:23 AM   #23
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Not necessarily, but you have to be careful using folders as busses. If your child tracks have post-fader fx sends, using the fader on the parent track changes the wet/dry balance, since it only affects the child level and not the sends level.

It should be the same thing as long as you don't try to do any processing or level adjustments on the parent folders (using them purely for organization).
I didn't follow this originally, but I understand now.

I use folders as busses, but I always deactivate master send from all child tracks and setup new sends to the parent folder/buss, which I re-name. The parent folder/buss then dumps to a subgroup in the mixer. I do process on the parent folder/buss even if it's simply Britson Buss. Usually, I won't compress child tracks individually, I'll place the compressor on the parent folder/buss.

I did send these to the rear buss where available. Rhythm guitars, lead guitars, lead vox, and BGVs usually have parent folder/busses. Bass and keys are usually solo tracks, so they're going on their own. I don't recall precisely what I did this time around, but I'm liking the effect, so whatevs.

Came across this thread where A. Scheps himself describes the technique. He's saying all sends are post-fader at 0. I did the same thing in Reaper. My sends all default to minus infinity (Kenny Gioia-style), so I can blend the send to taste. But a double-click resets the send to 0.

A dual or multi mono compressor is key here. I wanted to use V-Comp, but I can't unlink it. I don't know if the Lindell 254e is able to unlink channels, but the 354e being m/s should. I don't know if I want the multi-band thing, at least not in a vintage-style rock 'n roll mix.


https://www.gearslutz.com/board/q-a-...g-summing.html
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Old 10-07-2019, 10:25 AM   #24
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Haha, thanks kirk1701, now I'm 1000% more confused. It's ok, I just have to re-read this a dozen more times.

You telling me you actually create sends from child tracks to the parent?
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Old 10-07-2019, 10:36 AM   #25
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This shit never ceases to be confusing... How is it the same issue? Buss volume doesn't affect any other volume.
Both folders and busses affect what is passing through them, but neither of them affect the send levels of the children if those sends go to other places.
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Old 10-07-2019, 10:43 AM   #26
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Both folders and busses affect what is passing through them, but neither of them affect the send levels of the children if those sends go to other places.
Yea, but folders do affect the child levels, thus upsetting the wet/dry balance when changing their volume. Busses don't. Or am I somehow mistaken?
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Old 10-07-2019, 10:47 AM   #27
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Yea, but folders do affect the child levels, thus upsetting the wet/dry balance when changing their volume. Busses don't. Or am I somehow mistaken?
Easy check, when you turn down the folder fader, the meters on the children don't change (neither do the levels any tracks they are sending to). It's one of the major reasons people wanted VCAs which fixes the issue but comes with it's own caveats such as a similar issue if you then place a non-linear plugin on the buss or folder.

It can also be addressed by "flowing" the child sends through extra channels on the parent (buss or folder), which also fixes the issue but it has a caveat as well but fewer IIRC of other methods.
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Old 10-07-2019, 10:49 AM   #28
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Haha, thanks kirk1701, now I'm 1000% more confused. It's ok, I just have to re-read this a dozen more times.

You telling me you actually create sends from child tracks to the parent?
Okay let's use drums as an example. You've got kik, snr, toms, hat, crash and ride.

1. Line those up in whatever order you like. Remove all sends from those tracks.

2. Add a new track above those tracks. Make it a folder.

3. Drag the sends from all the child tracks into the parent track. Open the i/o of the parent track to make sure all the children are there.

That's all there is to it. You've now made the folder a Schrodinger's cat buss. It's both a folder and a buss at the same time.

Try it out. It'll change your life.
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Old 10-07-2019, 10:52 AM   #29
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Depends on what you expect.

If you turn your subgroup bus down and are fully aware that any post fader sends from child tracks routed to that bus will not just magically follow along, you might say "Well, duh!"

If you didn't consider that part and DID want turning down the bus fader to magically have those child track sends follow... you might invent the VCA. And then DAW options to follow that behavior.
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Old 10-07-2019, 11:19 AM   #30
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I think I understand all that, so still not sure how I'm wrong. I use busses, folders and VCA, all for different things.

I regard pre-fader busses as "submixes." I use them to process groups of tracks independently from anything else and treat them as just another track to blend into the mix. Folders I only use for organizing, because of the problem I mentioned with child sends. VCA I use if I want to change the volume of a group of tracks without upsetting W/D balance. Am I still missing something?

@kirk1701 - yea Ok that's a new technique I wasn't aware of. I'll definitely take it for a spin even though my brain can't quite process what's actually different... So with that method I can still use post-fader sends for the child tracks? Maybe I should stop asking and start trying now...

I used to really used to like folders for bussing until I realized I was fucking up my mixes whenever I touched their faders (only took 5 years to realize).

Sorry guys, I'm a ritard.
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Old 10-07-2019, 12:11 PM   #31
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Okay let's use drums as an example. You've got kik, snr, toms, hat, crash and ride.

1. Line those up in whatever order you like. Remove all sends from those tracks.

2. Add a new track above those tracks. Make it a folder.

3. Drag the sends from all the child tracks into the parent track. Open the i/o of the parent track to make sure all the children are there.

That's all there is to it. You've now made the folder a Schrodinger's cat buss. It's both a folder and a buss at the same time.

Try it out. It'll change your life.
So my friend, you first create a parent folder track with the 5 drum child tracks.

Then you assign a send from the child tracks to the parent track.

So then are you leaving the "Parent" checked on each of the child tracks too?


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I used to really used to like folders for bussing until I realized I was fucking up my mixes whenever I touched their faders (only took 5 years to realize).

Sorry guys, I'm a ritard.
Yeah, I figured that out shortly after I started using Reaper so maybe we're both ritards.
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Old 10-07-2019, 12:28 PM   #32
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I used to really used to like folders for bussing until I realized I was fucking up my mixes whenever I touched their faders (only took 5 years to realize).
Below I have 1 reverb track that is not inside of any folder or to any buss other than that master track. I have a Buss setup with a child sending to it. I also have a Folder setup with a child sending to it. Each child has it's own send to the reverb track, which bypasses folders and busses altogether.

Because of this, you can see in the licecap below that whether I reduce the buss fader or the folder fader, neither affect the amount of their respective children's level going to the reverb = doesn't retain FX proportions.

All I'm saying is that something else has to be done other than just choosing buss over folder to fix that problem.

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Old 10-07-2019, 02:59 PM   #33
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So my friend, you first create a parent folder track with the 5 drum child tracks.

Then you assign a send from the child tracks to the parent track.

So then are you leaving the "Parent" checked on each of the child tracks
I am not. I uncheck the master/parent send on the child tracks. Otherwise, I'd have redundant sends no? As always I'm open to being wrong.
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Old 10-07-2019, 03:37 PM   #34
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I am not. I uncheck the master/parent send on the child tracks. Otherwise, I'd have redundant sends no? As always I'm open to being wrong.
I figured you did, but since you didn't mention in your post that I quoted, I thought I'd ask.
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Old 10-07-2019, 03:47 PM   #35
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Because of this...whether I reduce the buss fader or the folder fader, neither affect the amount of their respective children's level going to the reverb = doesn't retain FX proportions.

All I'm saying is that something else has to be done other than just choosing buss over folder to fix that problem.
And that something is VCA, correct? I know that those both don't affect the send levels while VCA does, but I was just saying that Folders faders do affect the receive (child) levels, while buss faders don't.

So the W/D proportions are out of whack when you use the folder fader but not so much when you use the buss fader. I'm speaking strictly of parallel busses here, which I might've mentioned, because that's the only way I use them.

I guess I don't care about the ratio of the buss to the send because I hear it more against the individual sending tracks. I wouldn't want a buss to affect send levels anyway.

Or am I still too ritarded to get what you mean?
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Old 10-07-2019, 04:27 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Tod View Post
I figured you did, but since you didn't mention in your post that I quoted, I thought I'd ask.
Technically, I did with "turn off all sends," but I really should have specified the parent send.
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Old 10-07-2019, 05:19 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by foxAsteria View Post
And that something is VCA, correct? I know that those both don't affect the send levels while VCA does, but I was just saying that Folders faders do affect the receive (child) levels, while buss faders don't.

So the W/D proportions are out of whack when you use the folder fader but not so much when you use the buss fader. I'm speaking strictly of parallel busses here, which I might've mentioned, because that's the only way I use them.

I guess I don't care about the ratio of the buss to the send because I hear it more against the individual sending tracks. I wouldn't want a buss to affect send levels anyway.

Or am I still too ritarded to get what you mean?
While I will admit to still being a bit hazy on the practical difference between a buss and a folder, a VCA is absolutely an animal of a different stripe. A buss (bus?) is a summing point. Assign your tracks to a buss/folder, and any processing you insert into the buss will affect the tracks feeding it. Compression, for example. If you set up a simple "two tracks feed one buss" as you might for a snare (top/bottom) and then compress the buss, you affect both the "child" tracks feeding it. If you lower one of the child tracks, it doesn't hit the buss as hard, and thus is less compressed. If you lower the volume of the buss/folder/parent, the amount of compression remains the same, just the overall volume changes. Now, add reverb. You could do this inline within the buss, using the wet/dry balance control in the plug-in, and it will react much the same way as the compressor will. Lower the snare top (child) track, and the amount being sent to the verb will drop. You could use a send from the buss and achieve much the same result. You could also use sends from the individual tracks, in which case the reverb input will be uncompressed. However at that point, if you lower the buss level, the compressed snare mix will drop, but the uncompressed signal going to the reverb will not. That will give you a change in balance, to be certain! Enter the VCA. VCA stands for Voltage Controlled Amplifier, and in our application is a digital representation of a physical amplifier chip that lives within the channel strip of an analog mixing console. Simply put, the VCA chip changes the level of the channel in response to control voltage sent from the VCA master fader. Push the VCA up, the channel volume goes up. Lower the VCA master, the channel volume goes down. If you assign both of our theoretical snare channels to the VCA master, now they will respond to the VCA fader moves, which will affect the send levels from the channels as well as the amount of compression, since the channels are feeding the buss/folder/parent. If you wanted to bring the whole snare sound down, keeping the compression and the wet/dry snare balance, but don't want to have the verb inline, you can assign the verb strip and the snare buss to a VCA, and now you have one-fader control over the whole snare chain. Clear as mud, right?

As another drum-based example of where you might want to use a VCA, consider a whole drum mix. Maybe 18 or so tracks feeding 5-6 busses, plus three reverb returns. Grouping the busses and FX returns under one VCA control will allow you to adjust the entire kit send level to the master drum buss (or band buss, or mix buss) without disturbing the balance between the various components of the kit or the wet/dry balance. VERY useful if you have a complicated mix going, or to simplify automation, since you can use one automation lane to push/pull the entire kit within the mix. A little more excitement needed for the chorus? Just bump the VCA up a dB or so. A VCA is a control channel, full stop. It's not an additional layer of buss where you would insert processing and it also doesn't SUM the signals.
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Old 10-07-2019, 05:55 PM   #38
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While I will admit to still being a bit hazy on the practical difference between a buss and a folder, a VCA is absolutely an animal of a different stripe. A buss (bus?) is a summing point.
Yes. I'm aware VCA isn't doing anything to the audio directly. The reason they are brought up in the same context is that VCA was added at least partially to deal with the fact that there was no way to adjust a group of tracks' volume and also their sends proportionally.

Lots of folks, upon discovering that you can't change a bunch of tracks' volume with a folder without fucking up up the wet/dry balance of sends, would request that there be an option whereby folders could also adjust child send volume. Instead we got VCA.


VCA, busses (I prefer this spelling ) and folders all have a bit of overlap in their function, which as this tangent demonstrates, leads to much confusion.
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Old 10-07-2019, 06:03 PM   #39
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And that something is VCA, correct?
Yes, that's one method which solves the problem since the VCA is turning the children down which will affect the default post-fader sends. It's main drawback is if you wanted to then put a non-linear plugin (such as a compressor) on the folder/buss - if you adjust the VCA, it will change how hard the children hit the compressor which is a different version of the same problem - if you don't place non-linear plugins on the buss/folder then it's fine.

The way around both problems is to flow sends through the parent on adjacent channels (search for Stealth Sends on the forum). It sounds more complex than it really is - it's really just sending the sends through the parent track on dedicated track channels, then from the parent track to the final destination. This allows the buss/folder fader to act on both the summed signal and the sends while keeping their respective signals separate.
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Old 10-07-2019, 07:00 PM   #40
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Well that's why I always use pre-fader sends for parallel compression busses and post-fader for linear effects.

Yea I remember you telling me about Stealth Sends before, but I just haven't tried em. It seemed like too much manual labor and I already have an instant way of making my busses and VCA slaves.

Still haven't gotten around to trying the Rear Buss technique yet. Maybe now is a good time...
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