Old 10-24-2019, 12:14 PM   #1
ToneSpectra.com
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Default Strange defaults in Reaper

Hi. Just wondering about odd defaults chosen for Reaper, such as ctrl+F4 (rather than ctrl+W used by almost every other DAW) to close the program. What was the idea behind that? Thanks
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Old 10-24-2019, 04:46 PM   #2
azslow3
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Originally Posted by ToneSpectra.com View Post
Hi. Just wondering about odd defaults chosen for Reaper, such as ctrl+F4 (rather than ctrl+W used by almost every other DAW) to close the program. What was the idea behind that? Thanks
I guess it comes from the same origin as alt+F4...
But while Firefox accept both, no from 3 DAWs installed on my computer react on ctrl+W by closing something
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Old 10-24-2019, 05:41 PM   #3
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Quit is command-Q here like every other app I've ever seen.
Must be a Windows thing.
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Old 10-25-2019, 12:43 AM   #4
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Quit is command-Q here like every other app I've ever seen.
Must be a Windows thing.
Yup. REAPER comes from the Windows world

No "command" here. On the left side "Ctrl"+"Win"+"Alt":
- "Win" by tradition calls Windows functions, so not related to currently running app (that does not mean it can not be used inside an app, as every other decision that is just a convention).
- "Alt" is normally program global. By itself it switch focus to the top menu.
Alt+Tab switch programs.
Alt+Character is a shortcut to top menu items.
Alt+Non characters are used to provide Window Manager functionality for any app.
Alt+Space opens WM menu for the app,
Alt+F4 close the app, etc.
- "Ctrl" is "in program" commands, usually try to cover the same functionality:
Ctrl+Tab switch tabs.
Ctrl+F4 close tabs.

Characters are not language neutral, position based description is long. The best example is Undo with Ctrl+Z. "Z" here is selected by position, on english based keyboards it is near left Ctrl. But how to write that in the documentation? "Press the nearest or second nearest, layout dependent, key from left Ctrl" sounds bad. So most programs default to "Ctrl+Z", with "Z" as a character. Well, in German layout "Z" is in "Y" position on the keyboard. Almost impossible to press with one hand. And once you are let say in Russian or other not latin based language, where is "Z" key?

So I think Alt/Ctrl F4 is a good thing. Works in any layout without opening questions.
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Old 10-25-2019, 12:10 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by serr View Post
Quit is command-Q here like every other app I've ever seen.
Must be a Windows thing.
Quit is ctrl + Q in windows.
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Old 10-25-2019, 12:43 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by ToneSpectra.com View Post
Hi. Just wondering about odd defaults chosen for Reaper, such as ctrl+F4 (rather than ctrl+W used by almost every other DAW) to close the program. What was the idea behind that? Thanks
I am afraid that most things found in Reaper UX-wise are without any proper/user-tested idea behind them. This is a long-term Reaper's problem. It seems that the devs value mainly functionality and neglect usability.
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Old 10-26-2019, 03:17 AM   #7
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Quit is ctrl + Q in windows.
No. And never was. Ctrl+Q is just "in application" shortcut, some program implement it, other do not. And there are variations, f.e. Firefox (at least with German locale) has Ctrl+Shift+Q for Quit.

Alt+F4 is Windows Quit shortcut, as you can see in the program system menu (Alt+space or clicking the icon on the program title bar), for any program (till the program trick that, possible but not recommended)

The difference is hard to understand without writing low level programs. That is obvious under Linux (Xlib), where the difference between Window Manager operations and local program shortcuts is more obvious then in Windows.
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Old 10-26-2019, 03:26 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
I am afraid that most things found in Reaper UX-wise are without any proper/user-tested idea behind them. This is a long-term Reaper's problem. It seems that the devs value mainly functionality and neglect usability.
I guess Cockos has no special group to investigate usability.

Long time ago I had to remove a diskette from Apple (OS9) computer... Since that time I hate almost every usability decision from this "leader of usability". Unfortunately, some "smart" companies try to drag some of them into Windows/Linux. They rarely survive for long

Examples? Removing program menu in Windows (8.0, partially re-appear 8.1, return in 10.0). Icons bar instead of task list in Linux (still exist in some window managers, but I do not see people which use that). "Common menu bar" in Linux (fight is going on, up to the level near everything, including REAPER, is linked with "hacked" GTK3 library with this features off, since primary supporters still have it in official version by default...).
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Old 10-26-2019, 06:08 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
I am afraid that most things found in Reaper UX-wise are without any proper/user-tested idea behind them. This is a long-term Reaper's problem. It seems that the devs value mainly functionality and neglect usability.
Yes, Reaper devs add 1 million features, allow you to bind as you want, but themselves they do nothing as everyone would want something else, they think probably, so not possible to fulfill all needs, so it seems they decided not to put any effort on this.

BUT, what users/Reaper community could do easily, as a group effort/project, replicating various available systems, logic, cubase, ableton, fl studio, pro tools, ... They only need to do it, and also this nobody wants to do, so everything stays as it is. No dev effort, no group effort.
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Old 10-26-2019, 06:13 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by azslow3 View Post
Examples? Removing program menu in Windows (8.0, partially re-appear 8.1, return in 10.0). Icons bar instead of task list in Linux (still exist in some window managers, but I do not see people which use that). "Common menu bar" in Linux (fight is going on, up to the level near everything, including REAPER, is linked with "hacked" GTK3 library with this features off, since primary supporters still have it in official version by default...).
Instead Reaper should add Keykit like draggable menu items and buttons/toolbars.
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