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01-19-2018, 11:17 AM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 19
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Reaper superb performance, real or trick?
Hey everyone,
feeling a bit shy to post this monster I'm going to post... but where else if not in the Reaper forum! So in short, I started a thread in the Samplitude forum concerning the stability of Samplitude ProX3 (and other DAWs) versus Reaper and that the first is on average terms (=most of the systems I've used it with) heavy and very "sensitive" especially in low asio buffer situations, causing audio glitches, when Reaper looks like bulletproof, never causing audio dropouts. Someone posted that "Reaper is just dropping/ignoring errors and rounding the values from surrounded data" which is a very heavy comment... It would mean that Reaper is altering the audio data in order to fake out that everything is fine... What Reaper people have to say about this?
This is the thread: (but needs (free) registration to have access)
http://support2.magix.net/boards/sam...-do-the-test/&
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01-19-2018, 11:32 AM
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#2
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Administrator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 15,749
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nid
Reaper is just dropping/ignoring errors and rounding the values from surrounded data
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That is incorrect (and ridiculous).
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01-19-2018, 11:33 AM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: France
Posts: 2,899
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Just one more ridiculous thread.
__________________
I'm a simple man,
so I sing a simple song.
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01-19-2018, 11:33 AM
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#4
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Mortal
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wickenburg, Arizona
Posts: 14,047
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Weird, someone , possibly me, has my user name, but it says my email address isn't recognized.
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01-19-2018, 11:33 AM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,271
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That sounds like a butt-hurt fanboy arguing to justify his purchase.
Reaper is just more efficient and better at time management. With certain (default) settings, playback is not exactly real time. It will look ahead and make sure it gets the calculations done well before the time it needs to deliver the samples. That's not cheating, its optimization. It's not changing the audio, it's just doing it sooner. Plus, it doesn't have as much other stuff to do while it's trying to calculate those samples, so it actually can process those samples faster.
Hopefully somebody who's actually seen under the hood will show up soon, but I'm confident in my answer.
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01-19-2018, 11:42 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt
Hopefully somebody who's actually seen under the hood will show up soon, but I'm confident in my answer.
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Really do you have that kind of people in here?! Well then it is truly a paradise! In the Samplitude forum I have not personally seen a dev or some other person who has actually seen under the hood ever posting... I'm going to cry now... Reaper... I love you! Looking forward! And by the way I repeat I didn't make that comment and don't believe in it, I just came here for proof.
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01-19-2018, 11:46 AM
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#7
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Administrator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 15,749
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I can categorically say that REAPER is not ignoring errors and "rounding the values from the surrounding data" which honestly doesn't even make sense from a DSP perspective. Underrun errors, which of course do occur in REAPER or any software that simply runs out of resources, cause entire buffer blocks to drop out, and you can't just draw a line across a missing buffer block and call it good.
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01-19-2018, 11:52 AM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa
I can categorically say that REAPER is not ignoring errors and "rounding the values from the surrounding data" which honestly doesn't even make sense from a DSP perspective. Underrun errors, which of course do occur in REAPER or any software that simply runs out of resources, cause entire buffer blocks to drop out, and you can't just draw a line across a missing buffer block and call it good.
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Yes this is what I was also thinking.
By the way is there any way of asio errors / dropouts indication in Reaper? Samplitude has this (dreaded) indication and I think it may be the only one or one of the few DAWs that does this. I sometimes even feel that this watchdog system alone could cause the dropouts... Just speculating.
In Reaper if say you left it recording while not being there for a moment and there was a dropout you will not find out until maybe much later. I'm very interested in this since I am myself a Reaper owner and part time user (Samp for studio work, Reaper for mobile recs). Thanks!
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01-19-2018, 11:59 AM
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#9
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Administrator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 15,749
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nid
By the way is there any way of asio errors / dropouts indication in Reaper?
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The transport flashes red on a processing underrun, and optionally flashes yellow on a hardware underrun.
There is no persistent indication that an underrun occurred at a particular time, but there is an API function GetUnderrunTime, so one could write a script that would (for example) create a project marker when an overrun occurs.
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01-19-2018, 12:06 PM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 4,593
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I'm still waiting for that special someone who will take advantage of thread name to promote his work,because this thread (as always) will have like 10 pages and 12040591 views.
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01-19-2018, 12:19 PM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Saskatoon, Canada
Posts: 2,110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa
The transport flashes red on a processing underrun, and optionally flashes yellow on a hardware underrun.
There is no persistent indication that an underrun occurred at a particular time, but there is an API function GetUnderrunTime, so one could write a script that would (for example) create a project marker when an overrun occurs.
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Where is that option found? I would like to see hardware underruns.
On the subject, this is the kind of magical thinking that undermines the engineer part of audio engineer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sexan
I'm still waiting for that special someone who will take advantage of thread name to promote his work,because this thread (as always) will have like 10 pages and 12040591 views.
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And if I were an enterprising individual I would throw a blank post in right here on the first page so I can edit it once the thread has stretched to 10 pages...just saying
Last edited by plush2; 01-19-2018 at 12:25 PM.
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01-19-2018, 12:25 PM
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#12
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Administrator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 15,749
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01-19-2018, 01:03 PM
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#13
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Mortal
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wickenburg, Arizona
Posts: 14,047
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You'll see where this will inevitably erode to, when arguing against religion, the religion runs out of arguments and attacks the arguer instead of the argument. Its already happening there.
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01-19-2018, 01:54 PM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,239
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Is it worth pointing out to the OP that Schwa (who answered several of his questions) IS one of the small team of devs who give us Reaper?
😁
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01-19-2018, 01:59 PM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa
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And how to use it from there? Sorry, newbie here with reaper actions, scripts and the like...
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01-19-2018, 02:00 PM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyp24
Is it worth pointing out to the OP that Schwa (who answered several of his questions) IS one of the small team of devs who give us Reaper?
😁
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Thank you!
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01-19-2018, 02:28 PM
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#17
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Administrator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 15,749
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nid
And how to use it from there? Sorry, newbie here with reaper actions, scripts and the like...
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Scroll to the right in that dialog and it will say whether the option is currently on or off, it's off by default. Run the action, and the option will be enabled.
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01-19-2018, 02:38 PM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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Funny - I just joined the Samplitude forum (I have recently gotten the demo and decided to pass) & was curious to see exactly what WAS being said over there.
They have just as many delusional immature users as we do and hopefully an even larger number of rational human beings to counterbalance them, like we do.
Let`s all just agree to differ and get along, eh?
__________________
Ici on parles Franglais
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01-19-2018, 02:44 PM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nid
Thank you!
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Haha you're welcome... 😂 I've had Reaper a long time but only started using it a lot in the last year or so. So I'm in some ways a newbie myself.
I've found these forums to be generally very helpful and respectful. And it is really encouraging to see Justin (Frankel, Reaper's creator) and Schwa active on here, discussing ideas and feature requests, and helping out users. It's a real community feel.
And for the most part, even the most basic of questions gets a polite and helpful response - not just the kind of "RTFM" putdown you often see elsewhere.
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01-19-2018, 03:13 PM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyp24
Haha you're welcome... 😂 I've had Reaper a long time but only started using it a lot in the last year or so. So I'm in some ways a newbie myself.
I've found these forums to be generally very helpful and respectful. And it is really encouraging to see Justin (Frankel, Reaper's creator) and Schwa active on here, discussing ideas and feature requests, and helping out users. It's a real community feel.
And for the most part, even the most basic of questions gets a polite and helpful response - not just the kind of "RTFM" putdown you often see elsewhere.
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It's a great place here! You are going to be seeing me more often from now on. I own Reaper for many years now but I was never really very much into it because of lack of features back then in the early years. That certainly has changed and it's time to explore it more. And oh boy what to say about stability! It's really a phenomenon!
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01-19-2018, 03:19 PM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 19
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If you went to that thread in the Samp forum and read the simple test I came up with, could you tell me what is it that LatencyMon does that doesn't affect Reaper AT ALL but brings to their knees Samp, Studio One and Cubase according to my findings?
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01-19-2018, 03:41 PM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa
There is no persistent indication that an underrun occurred at a particular time, but there is an API function GetUnderrunTime, so one could write a script that would (for example) create a project marker when an overrun occurs.
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Oooh, I do hope someone creates said script. Would be very handy.
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01-19-2018, 03:53 PM
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#23
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Mortal
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wickenburg, Arizona
Posts: 14,047
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clepsydrae
Oooh, I do hope someone creates said script. Would be very handy.
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But then OCD nuts like me won't be able to get any work done because we'll be watching that monitor 24/7
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01-19-2018, 03:57 PM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pipelineaudio
But then OCD nuts like me won't be able to get any work done because we'll be watching that monitor 24/7
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Yeah, same. :-) My main use is for testing interface/DAW combinations (e.g. I'm using the linux build on a weak/old laptop for remote recording.) Currently I record multiple channels of a low-freq sine wave for like 2 hours and then scan through the waveforms visually to find any dropouts. (Suppose it'd be easy to write a program to scan the data and check for the same.) It would obviously be great to just check for markers. Or even just a button that ran a script that called that API function after a test run and reported any dropout it found.
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01-19-2018, 06:28 PM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Québec, Canada
Posts: 4,937
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Something like this? (I'll release it tomorrow after more testing)
(The script checks for new underruns every 33ms or so, time and marker position can't be absolutely precise.)
Last edited by cfillion; 01-19-2018 at 06:38 PM.
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01-19-2018, 06:29 PM
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#26
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,409
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Yeah! Awesome, thanks!
Quote:
Originally Posted by cfillion
(The script checks for new underruns every 33ms or so so time and marker position can't be absolutely precise.)
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Makes sense. Any sense on what kind of CPU load the script itself adds?
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01-19-2018, 08:22 PM
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#27
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Mortal
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wickenburg, Arizona
Posts: 14,047
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What in the world is causing that many underruns
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01-19-2018, 10:51 PM
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#28
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Near a big lake
Posts: 3,943
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pipelineaudio
What in the world is causing that many underruns
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I notice it says "xrun" which I remember from Linux. In which case...everything is causing underruns, always, without any hope of stopping.
Update Nov 2018: No problems with xruns with this Linux install. Last time I tried Linux--years ago--I had issues getting the audio driver to work properly, in another DAW, with JACK. It's not a problem anymore with JACK or just ALSA in Reaper.
Last edited by JamesPeters; 11-09-2018 at 01:41 PM.
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01-19-2018, 10:58 PM
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#29
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesPeters
I notice it says "xrun" which I remember from Linux. In which case...everything is causing underruns, always, without any hope of stopping.
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* cough cough * -- smiley face noted, but I can't resist: historically some truth there, but these days I personally have less troubles of that sort on linux than windows. There are still plenty of reasons why i wouldn't recommend linux to an audio pro (though fewer every day!) but xruns isn't one of them. YMMV.
My assumption is that cfillion loaded that FX bay with excessive plugins for the purposes of testing.
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01-20-2018, 12:16 AM
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#30
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,409
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All fair enough indeed.
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01-20-2018, 03:52 PM
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#31
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 19
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Been playing around with Reaper. Action "Flash transport yellow on possible audio device underrun" state is on. Driving it to dropouts through heavy usage but I never see the transport flashing yellow when hearing dropouts. I've only see it flashing red sometimes but I think it's a data input inefficiency because I'm working on a NAS.
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01-20-2018, 03:55 PM
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#32
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nid
Driving it to dropouts through heavy usage but I never see the transport flashing yellow when hearing dropouts. I've only see it flashing red sometimes but I think it's a data input inefficiency because I'm working on a NAS.
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I'm fuzzy on the technical details, but do I remember something about the device needing to cooperate on some level in order to generate device underrun events? I.e. maybe it doesn't work with all drivers/devices? Someone will enlighten us, surely.
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01-20-2018, 04:02 PM
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#33
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Québec, Canada
Posts: 4,937
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pipelineaudio
What in the world is causing that many underruns
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Way too many plugins.
The script is out now: "Project underrun monitor (xrun)" in ReaPack.
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01-20-2018, 04:03 PM
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#34
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfillion
The script is out now: "Project underrun monitor (xrun)" in ReaPack.
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Thanks again -- looking forward to using it. :-)
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01-20-2018, 04:10 PM
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#35
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clepsydrae
I'm fuzzy on the technical details, but do I remember something about the device needing to cooperate on some level in order to generate device underrun events? I.e. maybe it doesn't work with all drivers/devices? Someone will enlighten us, surely.
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I'm using a Babyface Pro.
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01-20-2018, 05:26 PM
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#36
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Administrator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 15,749
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Not all devices support the optional ASIO "kAsioOverload" message.
REAPER knows when there is a processing underrun and flashes the transport red. There could theoretically be some hardware overload that isn't associated with a processing underrun, which some hardware can report, and REAPER can optionally flash the transport yellow on those messages.
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01-20-2018, 06:02 PM
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#37
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 720
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Thanks Schwa. That yellow flash is going on by default round here.
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01-21-2018, 02:48 AM
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#38
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 1,343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa
Not all devices support the optional ASIO "kAsioOverload" message.
REAPER knows when there is a processing underrun and flashes the transport red. There could theoretically be some hardware overload that isn't associated with a processing underrun, which some hardware can report, and REAPER can optionally flash the transport yellow on those messages.
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Thanks for the info Schwa, would the red flashes indicate if there is say a DPC realted dropout cause be for example a buggy GPU driver?
__________________
Magnus Lindberg Productions - VRTKL Audio - Redmount Studios
magnuslindberg.com
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01-21-2018, 04:12 AM
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#39
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Luxembourg/Spain
Posts: 1,922
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AFAIK, the yellow flashing works on os/x and linux. Though the ASIO specification has support for informing the host about overruns, no drivers seem to implement it, so no yellow flash on windows...:S
__________________
Reaper for Linux Documentation (WIP). Software: Archlinux/KDE, Fabfilter FX, Komplete 8, Nebula, Schwa/Stillwell, T-racks Max/Amplitube/SVX, etc. Gear: i7-2600k/4700HQ/16GB, RME Multiface/Babyface, Behringer X32, Genelec 8040, etc. :)
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01-21-2018, 04:33 AM
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#40
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlprod
Thanks for the info Schwa, would the red flashes indicate if there is say a DPC realted dropout cause be for example a buggy GPU driver?
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No, ASIO buffer underrun is not equal to DPC dropout.
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