Old 03-10-2011, 04:12 PM   #81
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I didnt know there was such a thing .... 'good metal tone'
I find myself in agreement LXM. I wouldn't dare say it though for fear of being taken as a complete dickhead
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Old 03-10-2011, 04:45 PM   #82
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It might be interesting to hear a better start tone for this test. Something cleaner maybe? Or maybe I don't understand the test objective...what should you expect hear with an initial distorted tone then run through 10 compression units?
A humonguous loss of dynamic range, not to mention an absolutely disgusting signal to noise ratio. In the case of devices where max gain is higher than unity, we should see a massive increase in harmonic density as well. We of course wont get a true square wave in digital audio, but we will get something that approximates it to our ears
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Old 03-10-2011, 04:59 PM   #83
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A humonguous loss of dynamic range, not to mention an absolutely disgusting signal to noise ratio. In the case of devices where max gain is higher than unity, we should see a massive increase in harmonic density as well. We of course wont get a true square wave in digital audio, but we will get something that approximates it to our ears
So would this result say the sim is no good...or this particular setting, or?
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Old 03-10-2011, 05:11 PM   #84
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A humonguous loss of dynamic range, not to mention an absolutely disgusting signal to noise ratio. In the case of devices where max gain is higher than unity, we should see a massive increase in harmonic density as well. We of course wont get a true square wave in digital audio, but we will get something that approximates it to our ears
I'm trying to understand what the problem is. As I understand, you're saying in most/all amp sims, when you stack an effect of the same type, each additional effect has little or no effect to the output?

If that is the case, why is it even a problem? It's not something I would ever do, I would never chain distortions together or compressors. What am I missing here?
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Old 03-10-2011, 05:51 PM   #85
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If that is the case, why is it even a problem? It's not something I would ever do, I would never chain distortions together or compressors. What am I missing here?
Because they aren't reacting to the chained distortion the same way a real amp would.
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Old 03-10-2011, 06:36 PM   #86
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Because they aren't reacting to the chained distortion the same way a real amp would.
Precisely. And the same holds true with most software compressors as well

There are certain guitar sounds you just arent going to get with one stage of distortion, some require both a "generic transistor distortion" character as well as a "generic tube distortion" character in order to achieve. Some require different flavors of other stuff.

Here's another great example of divorce from the real world, which may or may not be related: feedback

Stick two unrelated distortions in a row at high gain, but even LOW volume (sometimes even headphones, I shit you not) and you will get feedback from your guitar. Getting feedback from vst plugins requires a much different technique and often tons of actual SPL
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Old 03-10-2011, 07:09 PM   #87
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You can actually change the tone quite a bit, its just that dynamic effects dont seem to stack and neither does harmonic density. Again, this isnt just amplitube or anything, this seems to happen with any amp sim I try
I personally think its mainly because there still is a difference with analog and digital and how sound reacts in both worlds. Especially stacking up 6 compressors in a series! Something we at IK are trying to master.
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Old 03-10-2011, 08:11 PM   #88
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I personally think its mainly because there still is a difference with analog and digital and how sound reacts in both worlds. Especially stacking up 6 compressors in a series! Something we at IK are trying to master.
Since you guys were the first to have the balls to put a harmonizer on (one of the extremely urgently missing holy grails for me, requiring me to carry around either an H3000 or a dsp 4000 every where I went, or face a 100 mile drive to town to use one), I am very confident you guys will figure this out
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Old 03-10-2011, 08:25 PM   #89
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Since you guys were the first to have the balls to put a harmonizer on (one of the extremely urgently missing holy grails for me, requiring me to carry around either an H3000 or a dsp 4000 every where I went, or face a 100 mile drive to town to use one), I am very confident you guys will figure this out
Thanks! That means a lot coming from THE pipelineaudio!
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Old 03-11-2011, 05:56 AM   #90
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So if the test was to show a weakness in amp sims I guess everyone knows that they are not up to live amp quality but a pic is worth....well, you know.

Maybe one day their technology will get them a step closer.

Still curious if this result stops you from using any sims?
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Old 03-11-2011, 08:24 AM   #91
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Still curious if this result stops you from using any sims?
Not at all. Most of the time I can get a "single amp" sound from free or cheap plugins that would kill setups I had to pay tens of thousands for. On top of that, I can carry that "amp" with me on a USB stick or whatever.

The only time it really becomes an issue for me are those guitar tones where you really needed to stack a bunch of nonlinear gain devices together
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Old 03-11-2011, 08:51 AM   #92
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Not at all. Most of the time I can get a "single amp" sound from free or cheap plugins that would kill setups I had to pay tens of thousands for. On top of that, I can carry that "amp" with me on a USB stick or whatever.

The only time it really becomes an issue for me are those guitar tones where you really needed to stack a bunch of nonlinear gain devices together
Does Vandal respond the same way, if you tested?

I have been fairly satisfied with Amp 3 and Vandal. Enough goofing around with them and there are some pretty good sounds for me. But I am only a home recorder so i try not to get to crazy about any one aspect that will keep me from playing.
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Old 03-11-2011, 02:55 PM   #93
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Does Vandal respond the same way, if you tested?
I havent tried vandal yet
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Old 03-11-2011, 11:07 PM   #94
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@Chip..
Great theory man. If memory serves correct, I believe there was mention of that or at least along similar lines, in the Triune Brain Hypothesis(I could be wrong though)

You guys were talking about Vandal...That is without a doubt my absolute favorite commercial amp software. Of course I always take issue with the prices charged. Vandal is the only amp software you would not have to pry the cash from my dead body for.

@Pipelineaudio, this is yet another reason why I still remain a "Real" Tube amp fan. I just don't think under the current processor speed its possible to truly model an amp. If we could then why has no one made a port of SPICE that models and runs in real time? Until then VST modeling is all just make believe. Actually, even if someone was to make a spice port, I would still question it...

Whats the samplerate limit on a real tube amp, oh yeah right..There isn't one...haha

Also Pipe, I hope everyone in Hawaii is safe...If needed you have my prayers, I hope they are not needed though...
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Old 03-12-2011, 10:06 AM   #95
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to truly model an amp. If we could then why has no one made a port of SPICE that models and runs in real time? Until then VST modeling is all just make
As I said in your forum, I think the SPICE approach is ultimately what needs to happen. It doesn't have to be in real time today - it would be interesting just to hear the possibilities of the approach IMO. I think it will be possible at some point in the future - cascading parallel processors.

I believe, though that another pet theory - that chaotic math is attractive to the human mind, because contemplating something that exceeds human cognition presents more possibilities - is at the root of both the "uncanny valley" in robots and for realism in amp/"analog audio" simulation.

You just don't know what a strat, a fuzz face into a cranked Marshall is going to do exactly when you hit a note. Hit an open chord 4 times, it's going to be near impossible to make all four sound *exactly* the same, minute differences are amplified in non-linear ways with a complexity that is not random, but beyond human computation. I think that is what makes staring at the ocean, the sky, fire, etc. enthralling.

I don't know what the clock cycle overhead would be to make a function call to grab a random number, to modify the balance of the IR mix, resonance, overtones, etc. in an aperiodic fashion - I don't think it would take much at all, but something that introduces a tiny bit of chaotic nuance over a sub-5,6k range you would have something that is suddenly "alive" feeling. In particular, if something like that were applied to the "problem region" of the speech-range (say 500hz-3k)I bet a "X factor" would suddenly come into play.

I'm particularly certain this pertains to the pitch of overtones when recording to multitrack tape: that air-band, "ear tickling" high end smoothness I attribute to compounded imperfections every time the machine mechanism is applied to the process, be it micro-wow and flutter, non-coherence of frequency response across octaves, etc.

I also attribute that to reverb realism, when you crank out the "diffusion" parameters on algorithmic reverbs you gain accuracy but lose the realism as the complexity goes down, hence the "Lexicon vs. IR" confusion - again, if a slight random variable was used to "perturb" the response characteristics of an IR I think the result would be "more natural". You never hear the exact same room response in real life, because your head is never perfectly still in an acoustic space and you're probably hearing something that probabilistically is exciting the room with it's own set of non-linear, near-random behaviors (a human voice, which is never perfectly replicable).


Blah blah blah. Or it could just be I haven't had enough caffeine yet.
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Old 03-12-2011, 12:18 PM   #96
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Man, I swear you need to stop giving me ideas, haha, That made so much sense and is not something I have ever thought about trying, but now I just gotta do it...seeded random numbers though...
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Old 03-12-2011, 03:20 PM   #97
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The SPICE to VST converter has been a deep dark fanatasy around IRC speculation for years. Even a way to make a rough approximation of the transfer functions themselves would be something
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Old 03-12-2011, 05:32 PM   #98
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Aaron, Most of the vst amps you use(i know what ones) are based on spice, using the transfer functions from the real data.. sooo..............Hell, even my ampsims do that..

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Old 03-12-2011, 06:16 PM   #99
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The Excorcist was "based on" a true story too, Just how close are they?
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Old 03-12-2011, 07:02 PM   #100
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Man, the thing that bugs me is that I've spent probably measurable amounts of time adjusting gain staging between separate sections/parts of Ampsim plugins. This basically proves that (outside of complete clipping) all that was a waste of time as long as the final output wasnt clipping....damn.
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Old 03-12-2011, 07:24 PM   #101
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Thats exactly my point. wilkesin, yeah lol these guys talk about putting a tube screamer, before the amp, its pretty much the hp filtering up to around hmm 700hz that makes the difference in those vsts...
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Old 03-13-2011, 12:15 AM   #102
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yeah lol these guys talk about putting a tube screamer, before the amp, its pretty much the hp filtering up to around hmm 700hz that makes the difference in those vsts...
Yup. This is what we gotta figure out
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Old 03-13-2011, 06:33 AM   #103
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Rob Wilkesin, Pipe..
Thats exactly it, its the fact that with a TS you are cutting the lows before they clip in the amp sim, so, you get what some call tight distortion. The inverse of that is a BIG MUFF sound. Big muff adds the lows..

If anyone wants to experiment with this, use our Treble Master and adjust the input frequency to all lows, then adjust it to all highs, you'll see exactly what we're talking about..

Here's the Treble Master..
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/923791/TrebleMaster.rar
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Old 03-13-2011, 08:30 AM   #104
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I think if you're into sitting and tweaking knobs and experimenting for hours, then there are plenty of good amp sims out there. Amplitube, for what its worth, has a ton of options and is capable of good sounds, and I hope I don't get my head cut off for saying this, but as far as payware amp sims go, I really think Peavey's Revalver deserves a mention here.

I've tried every amp sim I could find just to see what I was going to spend my money on, and when it comes to plug in and create, I just don't think anything has beat Revalver in the way of recreating an actual tube feel.

This might be on ethically shaky ground, but I have tried pirated copies of a lot of things, and if I like it and it's reasonably priced, I will pay for it. On the other hand, if I don't intend to buy a license for it, it will not stay on my pc.

For instance, I stumbled across Reaper while looking for something that had better plugin support than adobe audition, and while you could actually use Reaper forever without paying for it, once I saw how much a personal license costs, I purchased it immediately, because it is so affordable and powerful, this is a cause I want to support.

On the same token, Revalver HP is 70 bucks and sports all the options I need in an amp sim, because I use it mostly for writing new material. Even though I live in a house, I'd prefer not to mic up the Mesa every time I want to record something.

Anyhow, for plug in and play, thats my two cents.

And...if IK does start releasing single-head/cab plugins, I would jump on that boat in a heartbeat. It's not that Amplitube is too expensive per se, but I'd be paying 300 bucks for a ton of options I don't require. If I could buy only the components of amplitube which are useful to me, at a reasonable price, then I'm in.
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Old 03-13-2011, 01:38 PM   #105
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Yeah, I can't afford the big packages, but have have tried them. A lot of them(the big boys) just sound too impulsy for me(boxy). And when you put them on left and right, you get the dreaded tunnel. I have tried using compressors with different settings BEFORE the amp sims (different comps on left/right) to try to offset the dyamics. That works somewhat. Its the same thing like, with reverbs that don't have "modulation".. that tunneled feel.

Really though, for me, the big boys cabinets just sound waaay to boxy and well my fav term for them "plasticy".

Another thing too is string noise. You hear a lot, like every detail of the string noise, a real amp, you don't hear all the detail. Its like, we need to degrade the incoming sound somehow and make it smoother. Maybe something like that mp3 conversion "birdie" noise... to take some upper end detail away. Guess Smearing the incoming signal, is the term i'm looking for.

~Rob.
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:29 PM   #106
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Rob that string noise you're talking about. I tried to deal with that in earlier creations, like the preampus line, Shred 1.06, etc. when I attempted to smear (just as good a word as any) I ended up with the wet towel over the speaker type sound. That lead me to believe that perhaps the room sound, even with the mic up against the speaker was somehow interacting to lessen this effect. I still don't know if thats it, its almost certainly part of it.

Now here's the interesting thing we found out..We built the Filter cabs and those almost worked at smearing, without the wet towel! The filter cabs are NOT IR based, so, needless to say, that has set me on a whole other tangent in thinking that the static nature of IR could be in part causing this? The next step in my voyage is to create a cabinet that uses IR but also incorporates the dynamic portions of the Filter cabs. I know that from IR file to IR file it may get worse, or better, so that leads me to believe that we may be on the right track. We'll see what happens when we build the Littany Cabs..
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:46 PM   #107
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And...if IK does start releasing single-head/cab plugins, I would jump on that boat in a heartbeat. It's not that Amplitube is too expensive per se, but I'd be paying 300 bucks for a ton of options I don't require. If I could buy only the components of amplitube which are useful to me, at a reasonable price, then I'm in.
I would love to see that.!

@Brian Tell us about your custom shop, you didn't go into enough detail
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Old 03-13-2011, 11:05 PM   #108
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Here's a question: In the world of "real" amps, they don't have a sound spectrum of 20hz to 20khz right? Doesn't it make sense to have a high AND low pass on the guitar tracks to help eliminate weird overtones and extraneous noises?
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Old 03-13-2011, 11:14 PM   #109
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Here's a question: In the world of "real" amps, they don't have a sound spectrum of 20hz to 20khz right?
They sure don't.
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Doesn't it make sense to have a high AND low pass on the guitar tracks to help eliminate weird overtones and extraneous noises?
Good point. I'm interested in hearing the answer.
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Old 03-14-2011, 08:19 AM   #110
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Thats exactly my point. wilkesin, yeah lol these guys talk about putting a tube screamer, before the amp, its pretty much the hp filtering up to around hmm 700hz that makes the difference in those vsts...
The TS also has a low pass filter after the clipping stage that has a 720hz cutoff which makes the pedal very mid-rangy.

regards, Jack
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Old 03-14-2011, 10:24 AM   #111
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Yep what is it 720 and 723 hz or something?
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Old 03-14-2011, 09:09 PM   #112
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And...if IK does start releasing single-head/cab plugins, I would jump on that boat in a heartbeat. It's not that Amplitube is too expensive per se, but I'd be paying 300 bucks for a ton of options I don't require. If I could buy only the components of amplitube which are useful to me, at a reasonable price, then I'm in.
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I would love to see that.!

@Brian Tell us about your custom shop, you didn't go into enough detail
Alright. Well, AmpliTube 3.5 will still have the same structure, with the TUNER, STOMPS, AMP, CAB, and RACK section. But you will be able to buy only the components you want through the Custom Shop. You will not need to own a prior version of AmpliTube to get started with the Custom Shop. There will be models for as little as $5, and you can use Jam Points for up to half the cost. AmpliTube will truly be accessible to everyone with a Mac or PC.
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Old 03-14-2011, 09:17 PM   #113
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That sounds nice. Have to say it's weird that the digital download and the retail version costs the same. Or maybe not. Or maybe.
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Old 03-14-2011, 09:44 PM   #114
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$5.00 nice! That's good, because many of us are mental recluses with no jobs

~Rob.
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Old 03-14-2011, 09:53 PM   #115
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Ken,

When we get to start really customizing our own heads will taking all the tone stacks/eq out of the signal chain be an option? I'm at the point where all I really want to play with are the gain stages and fx. I'll eq to fit the sound of my mix later....
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Old 03-15-2011, 07:06 AM   #116
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Yep what is it 720 and 723 hz or something?
Yup, the TS output is centered on a bandpass around 720hz. This is much of the character of the pedal.

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Old 03-15-2011, 08:01 AM   #117
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Alright. Well, AmpliTube 3.5 will still have the same structure, with the TUNER, STOMPS, AMP, CAB, and RACK section. But you will be able to buy only the components you want through the Custom Shop. You will not need to own a prior version of AmpliTube to get started with the Custom Shop. There will be models for as little as $5, and you can use Jam Points for up to half the cost. AmpliTube will truly be accessible to everyone with a Mac or PC.
I have heard/read that the cost of Custom Shop amps will be from 5-20 dollars.
I would bet that a 5 dollar amp would probably be like the majority of freeware out there with a nicer Amplitubey skin.

I wonder what the pricing structure is of the good stuff.

Will you be able to buy FX as well through Custom Shop?

Would each individual purchase need to be authorized??

When is this supposed to be implemented?


(sorry guys, this is a slight derailment of the thread. These things seem to happen on the guitar threads here...

Brian @ IK Multimedia - maybe you could start a thread on Custom Shop)

Last edited by jellotree; 03-15-2011 at 08:12 AM.
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Old 03-15-2011, 09:05 AM   #118
JohnnyMcFly
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Good point wilkesin. You can do that in a round about way. You have the option to set the "Power" of each individual knob, with the exception of the CUT knob(if you add one). So, I guess you could just set their power for zero.

Presence, Cut and brightness are all optional, you can tell it that you don't want those knobs. Bass and treble knobs are not optional, but the MID knob sort of is. If you tell HCB not to add a mid knob it sets the Tonestack into a VOX type setting where when the bass knob is off, that particular area gets replaced with mids. All the way off on the bass knob and you get full mids.

However, you can also set the operating frequencies of any of the knobs. So the other option to do this is to set their frequencies all the same...and their power off. You would also have to tell it not to use the secondary tone stack in the power amp. Yes there is two. Thats a result of our conversations on DUMBLE heads..

@Brian, sounds interesting, so are we going to see some original creations from IK? That would be excellent..
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Old 03-15-2011, 07:53 PM   #119
Brian @ IK Multimedia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jellotree View Post
I have heard/read that the cost of Custom Shop amps will be from 5-20 dollars.
I would bet that a 5 dollar amp would probably be like the majority of freeware out there with a nicer Amplitubey skin.

I wonder what the pricing structure is of the good stuff.
It is all good stuff in AmpliTube!
But yeah, The official Soldano model is leaps and bounds ahead of the original Modern Hi-Gain...
We're not developing stripped down or crippleware amps to sell at discount prices, if that's what you're thinking. The Custom Shop will sell existing models and our new models in development à la carte. Some of the older models will be at the low end, with the newest models at the full price.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jellotree View Post
Will you be able to buy FX as well through Custom Shop?
Yes, if it has been or will be developed for AmpliTube, it will be available through the Custom Shop.

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Originally Posted by jellotree View Post
Would each individual purchase need to be authorized??
Models are authorized and automatically added to AmpliTube at the point of sale. It is a whole new system.

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Originally Posted by jellotree View Post
When is this supposed to be implemented?
At the next update, which is about 3 weeks away. And we will be 64-bit, too.
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Old 03-16-2011, 03:33 AM   #120
Matthew Ruggiero
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Is there going to be some sort of "platinum package" where you can get all the amps?
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