Sharing Reaper files with my friend - Timing problems when inserting his files...

[bthrower]

I am sharing rendered Reaper files with a friend across the country. I send him a stereo rendered Reaper music bed as a 192pt Sinc mp3 file (with the exact bpm info of the music).

He downloads my mp3 music track, creates a new Reaper project, sets it to the exact bpm number I've sent him and then inserts my mp3 music bed file into his project. He then adds several vocal tracks to the music bed I sent - and when he's finished he says everything plays back well and sounds good to him timing-wise.

He then mixes all his vocal tracks... When finished, he turns the music mp3 track volume off, and renders a "vocals only' mp3 file (192pt Sinc) to send back to me. I then insert this "vocals only" file into the Reaper master music project file (which contains the individual .wav file master music tracks that I originally mixed down to the mp3 that I sent him.) I then have a clean vocal track to guide me with my music manipulating and mixing.

Clear as mud??

We are doing this in preparation for a face-to-face recording session we'll be having here at my studio in a few months... We use mp3's to keep the file sizes down to e-mail size, as he's not really a "computer guy" and he's not comfortable up and downloading the bigger .wav files using services like Dropbox, etc.)

The problem is sometimes I insert his "vocals only" files into my master music project file and his vocals play back perfectly in time with my master music project (as they should) - But about half the time, the timing/vocals are way, way off from my master project music... not even close.

I've double checked to be sure he's assigning the correct bpm number into ALL the new Reaper files he creates to insert my music beds and record his vocals into - and he assures me he is...

He says it sounds fine and in time to him as he records/plays back/renders his vocals and my music. I am at a loss to explain why 50% of the time I can insert his vocals file and it plays fine in my music project - - yet 50% of the time his vocals file is way, way off timing-wise from the music tracks in my master project. I cannot understand why his 130bpm vocals can get so far off timing-wise when inserted into my 130bpm master music project file.

I'm using a 1.5 year old custom built Windows 7 PC/64 bit Home Premium Version/32 bit Reaper/8 Core Processor/16 gig RAM system and the latest version of Reaper... I'm using a small 2x2 Scarlett Focusrite interface set up to ASIO...

He's using a Mac Notebook that's a few years old and the same version of Reaper that I'm using (other than it's the Mac version)...

The only thing I can think of is there might be some form of latency issue going on here between my system and his... I hope not because latency issues completely befuddle me.

We have different interfaces... and he's using a small mic mixer prior to going into his interface... But if that's creating the problem, why are half of his tracks inserting into my master projects perfectly? Seems like they'd all be bad if that was the problem.

I'd appreciate any help that's out there on this one... And Thank You in advance...

[JHughes]

Are you sure his playrate slider is always at 1.0? It's easy to bump, or change the tempo and forget to set it back. Whether the track is at 130 bpm or not doesn't matter, that only affects the gridlines and metronome AFAIK.

[richie43]

Are you guys consistently working in the same sample rate? Are one of you converting to different sample rates when rendering? Are you both sure that the recording starts at zero (or are you not communicating where the part lines up?)? Just thinking.....

[jiff 41]

I use consolidate & export to send files to my mate in OZ as the files arrive for him that start at 0.00 so he can just slide them across to the far left & there's no chance of them not lining up!,,,one thing eliminated!

Try this option, here's a vid on the subject, click this link.

http://tutorialsforreaper.com/2011/0...nother-studio/

[EricM]

mp3 format creates a slight offset at the start of the file,
which can be compensated for at the encoding/decoding
stage. An older version of reaper and most DAWs don't do
that, in which case the syncing must be done manually.

Anyhow, use any other format for this type of stem exchange,
you might want to give FLAC a try which compresses data
without loss (like zip), and it reduces size well on files that
contain fair amount of silence, like in between vocal phrases.

Also, it's a good practise to create a one bar click track on the
start of each stem, so you can easily match the start point and BPM
just by aligning the click sounds.

e

[bthrower]

JHughes: I emailed him last night and he assures me it has been locked on 1.0 forever, he's never messed with it. Wish the problem could have been that easy to fix!!

Are you saying that no matter what numerical value I put in the Reaper bpm box an inserted file will remain at its original bpm speed? Perhaps you could further educate me... I've always thought it was important to set my new file tempo speed to whatever bpm value the first tracks I'm playing/inserting are... (It is important to me that gridlines and the click track are in sync with the song) I have my MIDI drums set to the "follow host" setting... Seems to work well for me...

Richie43: Yes we're constantly working at the same sample rate. He's not a "computer guy" and has left his Mac set at all the original values I had him set them to when beginning this project. (I will have him double check to be sure the gremlins made no changes!). He's rendering to the same "192pt Sinc" setting that I am. My recordings all start with an 8 bar drum stick count-off.

Jiff 31: Thanks for the link... This is an opportunity for me to learn something new about Reaper and I will be following up on it. I appreciate your suggestion. The easier we can make this long distance project the happier my buddy and I will be!

EricM: Thank you for your response. I'll give it a try...

If various compression problems are causing this, perhaps now is the time to get my friend on board with us using .wav files for this collaboration??

It's certainly not that hard to upload and download .wav files from Dropbox or other similar services. In your opinion would this be the best route to take? He's resisting because the world of computers mystify him (but he can sure sing his ass off!!!), but perhaps it's time for his cyber skill set to make a small advance!

All the music beds I send him have an 8 bar drum stick countdown and it is easy to line up with a common point on the track.

His latest return vocal started out in time for a brief while - but within 30-35 bars it had drifted to a point that it was not within a mile of being in time!

>>>>>>>

Thank you all for your time... My best regards to all...
BT

[richie43]

Maybe you could upload a small section of one of the weird projects to Dropbox and some of us could open it and have a look.

[JHughes]

I oversimplified. WAV files are unaffected but BPM will certainly affect MIDI that's synced to host, and effects like delays that use tempo, etc.,as well as gridlines. So it is best to figure out the tempo from the start and keep it that way.

I'd try flac files too, as stated mp3's can do strange things, but I use mp3's frequently and haven't had any problems such as you're experiencing.

[serr]

2 things:

1. Using mp3 compressed audio in production.
As mentioned already, this format is intended for lower quality portable media players and can introduce a lot of artifacts. Don't use this during production!

Your cohort is already doing more work to reduce files to mp3 (although I understand that he might not be aware of it). Keep files as 24 bit wav files. This would require the least amount of 'computer-y' work too.

If you want to reduce file size for file sharing, use flac. The learning curve is small.

2. Introducing a new timebase for every session.
You want to instead always record to your original click track.

The clock ticks of the digital clocks we use are still imperfect. They don't ebb and flow like motors on analog tape decks but there is still a level of imperfection. You would never perceive this until... you make two passes and try to line them up on top of each other. Now the slight drifts become very obvious as audio is no longer perfectly in sync.

You set your bpm to 120 on one session. (It was really 120.0000023 for example.) Now you lay down a new grid on a different system. Let's say this one is 119.99999999978. (Pretend those numbers come from measuring both systems with the same atomic clock for the example.)

See where that's going?

Exchange the Reaper project file and at least include the original grid or click track. If the original grid has been deleted and you decide you need it back for some grid work, you would need to make it conform to your already recorded audio. You can't simply set the bpm and expect it to line up with previously recorded audio.


Exchanging the project file also eliminates the need to import and align any new audio files. But if you need to do that for other reasons (like someone using a different DAW), it's expected to trim any overdubs so the file start point matches the working mix you sent to overdub to. Makes for an obvious reference point.


Hope that helps.

[EricM]

Originally Posted by bthrower

All the music beds I send him have an 8 bar drum stick countdown and it is easy to line up with a common point on the track.

He should put the same count-in on the vocal track,
so you can align his output to your project and check
for problems with playback rate.

Best to learn the basics sooner than later, so you can
at least troubleshoot easily and improve your workflow
and recording quality. Ignorance/fear of the technology
does not help

e

[whiteaxxxe]

Originally Posted by serr

...

You set your bpm to 120 on one session. (It was really 120.0000023 for example.) Now you lay down a new grid on a different system. Let's say this one is 119.99999999978. (Pretend those numbers come from measuring both systems with the same atomic clock for the example.)

See where that's going?

that is not correct. in a DAW is no drift. its sample-precise. if there were a drift you would see at least all professional studios go crazy. if there were a drift - even sooooo small - you never could do a null-test. a drift like you mentioned would cause serious phasing effects. and so on and on ... the examples for prove of no-drift in digital audio are legion.

if there were drift, what about the samplerate? it would have to drift too?? wherefrom does the samplerate know how the bpm is set? no way ...

the behaviour of mp3 is in that case worth a consideration. mp3s can do funny effects. you are right, that this kind of collaboration should never make use of mp3. and that start and end of mp3 often not line up exactly with the wav file.

[serr]

Originally Posted by whiteaxxxe

that is not correct. in a DAW is no drift. its sample-precise. if there were a drift you would see at least all professional studios go crazy. if there were a drift - even sooooo small - you never could do a null-test. a drift like you mentioned would cause serious phasing effects. and so on and on ... the examples for prove of no-drift in digital audio are legion.

if there were drift, what about the samplerate? it would have to drift too?? wherefrom does the samplerate know how the bpm is set? no way ...

the behaviour of mp3 is in that case worth a consideration. mp3s can do funny effects. you are right, that this kind of collaboration should never make use of mp3. and that start and end of mp3 often not line up exactly with the wav file.

Oh, but it is!
Just small enough to get away with ignoring in many cases here in the digital world.

Record the same audio event with 2 digital systems (same sample rate, format etc). Now import the files and try to line them up.

All digital clocks are imperfect and have some ebb and flow. It's just that it's small enough to get away with ignoring in many cases. You still need to sync multiple systems to the same clock and this is why.

And it is in fact SOP in the studio to snap a grid to existing audio (when you want a grid for speeding up arrangement work for example). Not the other way around. BPM based grids are big and crude and all but still ultimately based on the systems digital clock.

Run multiple clocks and things will drift.
Resolve everything to one clock.

[planetnine]

I think you two are at cross-purposes.

serr is right in what he says, but it shouldn't make a difference if the fileset is loaded into the DAW and all new recording performed to it -clock drift here just results in miniscule tuning varitions that are not of any significance -so whiteaxxxe is correct in what he's saying.

but yes, use flace or even wavepack -that maintains the metadata chunks as if it was standard BWF wav, or so I'm led to believe...


>

[bthrower]

Thanks to all who have weighed in here to help me.

Some of the recent discussion is way over my Reaper/digital knowledge pay grade - but I appreciate any and all attempts to set me on the right path.

Being simple-minded (which has served me very well over the years...), I begin any unknown situation by embracing the first big-picture idea/concept that makes sense to me. In this case the general tone of the discussion leads me to believe that moving away from compressed files might be a good thing to do when sharing files. We'll step it up a notch and exchange only .wav files for a while here and see if our problem goes away.

I'm also taking a serious look at the Consolidate and Export feature in Reaper.

My music buddy is just gonna have to man-up and learn how use Dropbox.

Cyber-life can be tough!

Thanks to all of you.

[jiff 41]

Originally Posted by bthrower

I'm also taking a serious look at the Consolidate and Export feature in Reaper.
My music buddy is just gonna have to man-up and learn how use Dropbox.

The only thing to bear in mind if it matters is, Consolidate & export sends the files raw (no effects!).
If you want fx to be included you should use "render" stems, but it might be better to start off with C&E until you both gain confidence & understanding,( it's how we did it!) & the best way of all I think, is to do a "save as" & send the whole project thru dropbox,
That way you both see the same full project both ends,(try sending a couple of non important files in dropbox to get into it!, they can be deleted after!, it's easier then he thinks!)

If you need more help/explanation of how we do it gimme a shout!

[hopi]

here is a thought...

forget about the mp3 to keep file size down...

just make a zip file of your own whole project including all the audio files...

Send him the project via WeTransfer.com
he will get an email with the download link... super easy.

Have him add his parts and do a Save As with a diff file name, and zip that and WeTransfer it back to you...

Now if that is too much geek for him, help him out by you doing it by using Team Viewer [also free for individual use and super great]... in fact, it has a file transfer ability so with it you could both send him the project and then go back and get his altered project.

[JHughes]

I also use TeamViewer and its file transfer functionality. I was using LogMeIn Free for years but I'm glad they changed it to paid only, forcing me to switch, because LMI didn't have file transfer capability with the free version.

[LugNut]

Originally Posted by JHughes

I also use TeamViewer and its file transfer functionality. I was using LogMeIn Free for years but I'm glad they changed it to paid only, forcing me to switch, because LMI didn't have file transfer capability with the free version.

And, TV is super fast! Hi JHughes!

Guido

[JHughes]

Aloha!