Just because you can’t imagine how to do it doesn’t mean it can’t be done
You keep saying this but you didn't provide any example on how it's possible now, so please tell me how can i reset an lfo with another lfo or a clock? How can i see my routings from a single window? Because this is some of the stuff i'm requesting here. And this request is not only about what's possible now, but to make it user friendly and be able to see the routings and experiment easier and faster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt
and just because the exact plugin you want doesn’t exist doesn’t mean they couldn’t be written.
I'm not a jsfx programmer neither i posted this to jsfx forum, i proposed some things towards the devs for NATIVE implementation, if you don't want this and you're just fine using jsfx, then it's fine by me, but since i didn't find anything to suit my needs and proposing something to get better, what's the problem?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt
Anyway, this is my understanding of the devs’ attitude on this request so far: You can do it in plugins with far more flexibility than anything they’d ever be able to implement. This feature request explodes into hundreds more as everybody wants that one more modulate that does X, or does Y just a little bit differently from the one we’ve already got…
I disagree, this is your thought and not from the devs. I believe i was very clear to what i'm suggesting since the native parameter modulation is obsolete, my first post is about native parameter modulation and also i believe that i was pretty clear that with the existing jsfxs it's not possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt
Also, you keep saying “modular”. Well, there isn’t much more modular than plugins. Each plugin is a module, and can be combined with just about any other to manipulate signals in whatever weird and wonderful ways you can come up with. In an analog modular synth, there is no real distinction between control signals and audio. They’re all just voltages that you patch around as you see fit. But you want to take just the control elements and segment them off into some separate space where they are treated differently and can’t be combined with or manipulated by any of the other methods we have available for processing audio and midi. Off in their own rack doing their own thing. It really doesn’t make as much sense as you seem to think. Especially since you want that rack to look pretty much exactly like the FX chains that we already have. Oh, and are you going to give us a way to write “plugins” for that rack? Or use third party plugins?
Hmmm, i know what modular is, i 've been using since 2007 and still do. I think you misunderstood about what i want in a "modular" way to modulate the parameters and what this has to do with what you're saying about that each plugin is a module? I already explained that Reaper lacks a variety of modulators and modular is not used only with analog but also in digital systems.... Also i wrote that it could be done with a modulation matrix with pins or drag n drop inside a rack...
LOL why do you think they can't be combined? It's already possible with plugins like Reaktor, VCV rack, even some plugins from Unfiltered Audio are using virtual cables to modulate their parameters and last Bitwig has done it natively.
I don't understand what you're saying, there are clues that it's already possible, sorry but what you're saying doesn't make sense at all...
Why to give you a way to write plugins? I request this from the devs and many others agreed that they would want this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt
I think you will get much further by requesting help with using existing plugins, new/changes to features in those plugins, or just drop by the JS forum and request something that does what you want.
What can i say about this, shoot me because i requested something that is opposite the way you are used to work with modulations. I request this here for a native solution and to make better the existing parameter modulation system and i don't want to request this in jsfx forum.
Ok, but there are no jsfx modulators that can do this yet i guess.
I could rather easily do this for you.
-Michael
EDIT:
Not even necessary.
The stock JSFX "MIDI CC LFO Generator" does feature am "ON/OFF" slider (i.e. automatable parameter) that in fact not just stops the wave, but also resets it to a dedicated state (phase = 0)
OK, it does not do Hi Res CC. Please test anyway. If you want me to add HiRes capability to that JSFX let me know.
The stock JSFX "MIDI CC LFO Generator" does feature am "ON/OFF" slider (i.e. automatable parameter) that in fact not just stops the wave, but also resets it to a dedicated state (phase = 0)
OK, it does not do Hi Res CC. Please test anyway. If you want me to add HiRes capability to that JSFX let me know.
Hope that helps,
-Michael
Hi Michael thanks for looking at it, i just tested this lfo, it can reset with on/off but if i modulate this with the stock lfo and i guess with any other lfo, if the value is below the middle it stays off for a longer period than it should, which stops the modulation. A real reset function would reset instantly without stopping the modulation and this is more visible when you modulate on/off with a slower speed.
Also this lfo has only one shape (sine), but also i would like to have a a bunch of modulators to choose from a single window with all parameter destinations for the chosen fx. I guess i'll just keep dreaming
Thanks a lot anyways!
OK you need a much more sophisticated generator than MIDI CC LFO Generator.
Sound more like a repetitive synth envelope.
I recommend taking a look at ReaPack->ReaRack.
There are several generator types available (dedicated for Modulation and/or audio). Maybe you can find something suitable.
If not, it certainly can be done as a JSFX. Maybe Malcom is interested in doing some enhancement to his work.
-Michael
Thanks i'm using Rearack for a long time now, but still it's not as flexible as what i'm suggesting. Triggering an envelope is not the same with triggering the reset of an lfo, it's different behavior from these two modulators.
Me and i guess the rest people who commented in this thread, need more routings and modulators, more routings for stuff like to send the reset of the lfo to any other modulator or the trigger of an envelope or a gate to (lfo, envelope,clock turing machine, etc) and to be able to modulate the parameters of the modulators too.
Also to be able and see all of them in a single window (per track), which i could open or close anytime i want, to see or change my routings with drag n drop, cables or a modulation matrix with pins.
Working with CC introduces so many steps, to select the parameter, to open the menu to send it to a CC number, add a cc lfo as another effect, choose the cc number to modulate, and i have to do this each time for every single parameter...
In my music i use a lot of modulations and it's really really tough to see my routings from all of them, without needing to search for them one by one, because if i also use cc, i just see a number and not the destination parameter, i have to open the plugin and select the parameter and see the cc assignment.
Almost the same thing happens with native parameter modulation, i have to open each parameter modulation window separately for each one, which is not good at all when you have lots of modulations and you want to see them.
Wayyy to much and very far from user friendly and to what i'm suggesting for an easier and better modulation system.
The other solution to have a flexible modulation system without opening a rack or a window per track for the connections, would be with drag drop, but this could be possible only if the fx and the modulators would be visible next to each other and docked side by side as it's already possible in ableton or bitwig.
This system helps to make fast the assignments with drag n drop and it works pretty good.
+2
REAPER audio parameter mod was 1 of the initial lures as at the time did not have a decent envelope follower like that..but after using the mod options for some time would agree this could be really brilliant having a global or per track mod matrix routing bus.
Simplified drag drag actions to minimize clicks and extra pop up windows everywhere.
Vital's modding is nice..many vst are nice,rrp is nicer.
Question is = "what is more cpu and large project efficient,rack modulators or automation items and/or envelope lanes?"
Question is = "what is more cpu and large project efficient,rack modulators or automation items and/or envelope lanes?"
But modulators can't be compared with automation items or envelope lanes, since they could be anything, from lfos with speed at audio rate, envelopes, randomizers, step sequencers with random position and different speed or length, chaotic attractors or xy pads.
And combining these with their triggers, a user could create an advanced modulation system, which could be saved to use with other fxs.
Things which are difficult to achieve with automation, and the reason a modulators rack would be so valuable.
But modulators can't be compared with automation items or envelope lanes, since they could be anything, from lfos with speed at audio rate, envelopes, randomizers, step sequencers with random position and different speed or length, chaotic attractors or xy pads.
Yes- well perhaps they can be comparable (even more precise editing than lfos) and have no reason to think rack modulators would not be useful.
Currently,REAPER parameter modulation is limited to ranges of 0.0039hz > 8.0000hz or, 8.0000QN or, 0.2500QN (QN probably means close to 0 for some? + not consistent with other settings?)
The random shape seems to either smooth,or linear smoothed..not binary stepped values?? (even if default write cc shape is set to square)
No options for triplets,dotteds etc..unless,math/brain/time division expert.
Param mods does not work if track is muted etc,or even if transport is not running =silly and sometimes really unpractical.
If* paramater modulation has been enabled for a parameter control and then disabled..it overrides any previous baseline setting =silly.
Full names are cut off.etcetcetc.
A dedicated,built in,modern set of tools,drag/drop/easy peasy ability to save/preset etc would be welcomed am sure by lots of users.
...<snip>
Currently,REAPER parameter modulation is limited to ranges of 0.0039hz > 8.0000hz or, 8.0000QN or, 0.2500QN (QN probably means close to 0 for some? + not consistent with other settings?)
<snip>...
You can enter any lower/higher number manually by typing it directly into the numerical box instead of using a fader (= the range limitation applies only to the fader control), e.g. 0.1250 QN or 24.000Hz.
You can enter any lower/higher number manually by typing it directly into the numerical box
Hey- you sure can..but can you then automate them values? nope.
Clearly REAPER parameter modulation would benefit from a major overhaul/reworking/rethinking.
Most the functions are already there with ai items and basic shapes..this could be expanded for a global audio,midi and lfo mod matrix.
Hey- you sure can..but can you then automate them values? nope.
Clearly REAPER parameter modulation would benefit from a major overhaul/reworking/rethinking.
Most the functions are already there with ai items and basic shapes..this could be expanded for a global audio,midi and lfo mod matrix.
I hope this does happen. Just being direct about it, it's functional on a pretty basic level, and even at that it requires an advanced workflow just to do that basic thing, probably discouraging almost everyone. Save for that occasional situation where it might be clear-cut how to set things without pulling your hair out, or it's just worth putting in the effort.
It's possible to do some good stuff, it's just weird to me... this seems like it should be "the most" REAPER-y thing about Reaper given the open-ended modular approach to almost every other aspect of the DAW - yet kinda lack the same care in this place where it most naturally fits.
Anyhow, devs are guns-a-blazing with the Comping Play Markers stuff, which shows that when they do decide to do something big it does end up happening. Just like Razor Edits. I'm hopeful this gets the same love at some deserving point.
Yep- considering different types of modulation can be a fundamental part of sound generation and manipulation,am a little surprised this is not considered priority.
As with all things REAPER-user has to wait n see what surprises come next,because in 1 sense,everything is already created..it just needs to be made physical.
I got the impression that things like this won't get any real attention from the devs in the next 5 years.
Lol- what gives you that inpression?
Besides..people have access to a powerful plugin called Cardinal (DISTRHO)
As of today contains 871 modules.. https://github.com/DISTRHO/Cardinal/releases
^Fits in the REAPERrack nicely..powerful,polymodular and not sure cockos could actually compete with this natively.
MPE support,multichannel and quite cpu efficent.
Sequencers,randomizers,gaters,lfo generators,clock generators etc etc.. it is already there.
Looks great too! scalable.
Lol- what gives you that inpression?
Besides..people have access to a powerful plugin called Cardinal (DISTRHO)
As of today contains 871 modules.. https://github.com/DISTRHO/Cardinal/releases
^Fits in the REAPERrack nicely..powerful,polymodular and not sure cockos could actually compete with this natively.
MPE support,multichannel and quite cpu efficent.
Sequencers,randomizers,gaters,lfo generators,clock generators etc etc.. it is already there.
Looks great too! scalable.
OR,wait 5 yrs
There seems to be a misunderstanding, probably because of the word "modular" applying to so many different things.
This FR has to do with a REAPER-native rack, containing MODULATORS that apply to PLUGIN PARAMETERS.
Like, a central hub to have Sine waves, random generators, envelope followers, and you can drag-drop them onto plugins and control them together from the hub. Macros that control multiple modulators together, that you can automate, etc etc etc.
This FR has to do with a REAPER-native rack, containing MODULATORS that apply to PLUGIN PARAMETERS.
Like, a central hub to have Sine waves, random generators, envelope followers, and you can drag-drop them onto plugins and control them together from the hub. Macros that control multiple modulators together, that you can automate, etc etc etc.
...like every other DAW can do these days.
Yes- it is a native request,but not all daw do these type of drag drop operation fwiw.
Once you work out how to set up and use this plugin,along with already native options - user needs no more (imo)
This can become your modulaion hub,because its mainly set n forget or,tweakable and as deep you wish.
Yes- it is a native request,but not all daw do these type of drag drop operation fwiw.
Once you work out how to set up and use this plugin,along with already native options - user needs no more (imo)
This can become your modulaion hub,because its mainly set n forget or,tweakable and as deep you wish.
I'm using cardinal as well for advanced modulations, but you have to first open the plugin, then search from the big list of modules, add a vst host module which opens Carla and then from there you load the plugin and choose which parameters from the plugin to show in the vst host module to make the connections.
Or you load Cardinal before the vst you want to automate, assign cc numbers to the plugin parameters and then modulate them from the cc module in Cardinal.
I love Cardinal but i'm mostly using it to record samples with modulations before my music session, because it could pull you out off the flow if takes time to set it up when making music.
It's great for advanced modulations but with a native solution things could be way faster and user friendly by opening the vst in a new sandbox (rack) that could support drag n drop for the assignments.
This rack could have a switch to toggle show/hide the modulators below it.
add a vst host module which opens Carla and then from there you load the plugin and choose which parameters from the plugin to show in the vst host module to make the connections.
Well,you do not have to on windows.
Quote:
Or you load Cardinal before the vst you want to automate, assign cc numbers to the plugin parameters and then modulate them from the cc module in Cardinal.
Yes- this is where i am at..seems ok.
Quote:
It's great for advanced modulations but with a native solution things could be way faster and user friendly
Yes=100%
Cardinal is not really for the faint-hearted,more an experimental playground.
Native solution would always be welcomed if made more advanced,practical,easier for all users.
Yes=100%
Cardinal is not really for the faint-hearted,more an experimental playground.
Native solution would always be welcomed if made more advanced,practical,easier for all users.
All sounds functional, but in no way comparable to Ableton/BitWig/Cubase/Studio-One FX Racks, which are in a different galaxy in terms of creative workflow and "just do stuff as you're thinking about it" without digging through menus and lists.
the "Vital" synth is a fantastic example of forward-thinking modulation coupled with incredible drag-n-drop and visual feedback features.
Just, from a creative standpoint... think of the thought process.
"Man I want to take this synth, verb the left channel, delay on the right channel, i want a Sin wave to warble the delay rate for that weird Reggae effect, and let's randomly modulate the pitch on the signal pre-verb fx to mess it up a bit. And I want to automate the strength of these modulations".
Then work backwards -- you want to "reach for a Sin wave", "put it on the delay rate", "reach for a Random wave", "put it on the pitch", "assign both waves to a macro", "automate the macro".
So that makes you think of a little sandbox, with different waves you can put into a console, and drag them on top of plugin parameters that are visually staring you in the face (whyyy would we want to look at a list!!! everything is right there already!).
And for Amplitude, phase, all that stuff... just interact with the physical wave! Drag it to the left or right to shift the phase. Drag it up and down to control amplitude. No menu digging, no popups, you just touch stuff.
This seems really kind of simplistic (in concept), especially given that there are a trillion examples of it being done well already.
Just, from a creative standpoint... think of the thought process.
Hey- yes,of course you are right..but got to actually thinking a bit more and found great solution that is the native way.
So i use the param mod from audio inputs to mod stuff- the native envelope follower seems to works just fine.
BUT..got to think..about midi link..and midi items as modulation containers..because......
a. you can draw almost any shape very precisely.
b. sequences can be created on the fly,or preset.
c. whole sections can be edited,or single points.
d. you get 16 busses and 16 channels,per midi item (i think)
e. you can use well over 100 cc lanes for modding.
f. all the lfo shapes can be created in the midi cc lanes as well.
g. midi items can be saved as actual presets.
h. triplets,dotted and swing is respected in the midi editor.
i. you can pin plugs and tweak cc lanes viewing both at same time.
j. it is thursday..modulation day!! yaaay
Not poo pooing request,but see all these things as really nice,native alternatives/solutions until something better comes around..?
k. midi items can be stretched,split,shrunk and expanded.
l. any cc lane with any shape can easily be swapped to another lane.
m. any plugin,from any track,any channel can pick up these signals from a single midi item.
n. declutters workspace..no more 1000 envelope lanes !! hahaa
o. midi item source properties can be changed.on the fly.
p. free item positioning for audio+midi on same track.
q. inline arrange area cc editing (this alone is really nice!)
r. r stands for REAPER.
s. stack 'em 'n see what happens!
t. cc can be converted to seperate envelope lanes for further editing.
u. easy slicing of midi cc items and reshuffling,grooves etc.
v. item mute toggles on/off for all lanes.
w. midi notes can be converted to cc data- =easy sequences.
x. cc shapes can be combined and scripts used.
y. y? well,why not?
z. easy,1 place storage for ALL modulation duties.
Really really happy that more people want this, thanks to all!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gass n Klang
I think Bitwig is the best DAW for modulating (and it has an awesome GUI. too :P)
It definitely is, they're system is amazing because you can see the modulators in the same window with the fx parameters, which then makes it possible to make the assignments with drag n drop super easy and fast.
Another plugin that has the best modulation system imo and Reaper could take some ideas, is the amazing Byome by Unfiltered Audio.
For me this has the best and most advanced modulation system with virtual cables. (they also could be hidden) This is nothing more than a sophisticated drag n drop method with visual indicators.
Here's a gif with Byome showing what I would like to have for a modulation system and its features. Above is the fx, in this case a filter and bellow the modulators.
Check how easy and fast is to link multiple parameters, how fast it is to modulate multiple parameters with the same modulator, how it's possible to modulate the parameters of the modulators and how useful it is to be able and trigger/reset the modulators with other modulators. with ths way we could achieve crazy modulations that could sync/reset at the time we want creating evolving modulations with much better control.
And ALL the above should happen in the SAME window to be possible. I really hope the devs will consider some kind of rack for this reason
Parameter modulation is pretty much the only thing I care about anymore. I use it massively, mostly the audio control signal.
As others have pointed out, there are plenty of work arounds for modulation by a pattern, but there is none for audio control signal.
I recall in the distant past requesting modulation of pm parameters, but Justin had some reason it couldn't be done? I don't remember what it was, and can't seem to find the old thread, but since there are so many workarounds, I frankly don't believe it.
There must be a way to incorporate them in the source code instead of wrapping third party VSTs around it.
so basically, a very strong +1 from a decade long user.
Reaper has already nice drop support, for audio send routing. Same could happen from any vst/jsfx parameter, drag drop to another vst/jsfx parameter and it should generate a parameter modulation between those parameters. Just a quicker alternative. This as a first start.
Then after doing any form of parameter modulation, switch to automation write mode, let the envelopes be written, be happy.
We need only drag drop quickness, then fine adjusting those modulation settings, when you are happy with the result, write the automation down, if you have 100 parameter modulations running, letting all 100 write in one go. Disable parameter modulation again. There are actions which help you doing all this in one go. Then finetune your envelopes if desired.
Reaper has all this already. But still not happy. Hmmm.
I guess it will never happen, it is too complicated.
I don't think this is too complicated to happen, it's more about if it's in the dev's scope for future implementation, which I really hope so.
Better parameter modulation is one of the big things I'm missing in Reaper now.
Biggest missing thing in Reaper is CSV export/import of all RPP midi/osc mappings. I would use mostly the midi side, but osc for those who need it for their settings. A human is the parameter modulator then, or when used together with other software systems, then a combination of human + controling software system. I view parameter modulation as part of the project, meaning it is like a synth setting, part of the project. But on the contrary, human + controling software system is coming on top of it, from the outside. Think like a DJ, doing the wannabe actions on their mixing desk, eq down, quick rhythmical volume up/downs like DJ Taucher...
mespotine developed functions in this direction into ultraschall api, quite some time ago, thanks a lot for them again mespotine, need to test their latest version again, if working properly now.
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