Old 01-17-2019, 01:55 PM   #1
InfiniteDimensionality
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Default Tempo map alternate curves

We only get linear and square? Why not go ahead and add the others, all the cod e already exists... We all know that any continuous curve can be represented by lines so why make us have to put in, say an exponential tempo change by hand that is not very accurate? I know they wouldn't be used much in most music but if it's not their it can't be experimented with.

I'm specially talking about the slope shapes for points.
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Old 01-17-2019, 02:33 PM   #2
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I had the same request many years ago,
and I still could like to use such lines.
But then I went down the rabbit-hole and got a deeper understanding of a DAW and it's tempo-line at a mathematical and technical level.
The tempo-line is the fundament that everything in your project is locked into. Using straight line is complicated enough -using curves is a can of worms.

Just put in as many points as you like to get what you want.
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Old 01-17-2019, 02:40 PM   #3
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Yes, not going to happen. Even linear changes are a tremendous issue to take care of properly.
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Old 01-17-2019, 02:47 PM   #4
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ello-can you not achieve that with playrate automations? technically it's varying the speed the same--it's just not getting translated back as savable,readable tempo info..> sure some genius will change that by a simple script..
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Old 01-17-2019, 03:12 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
I had the same request many years ago,
and I still could like to use such lines.
But then I went down the rabbit-hole and got a deeper understanding of a DAW and it's tempo-line at a mathematical and technical level.
The tempo-line is the fundament that everything in your project is locked into. Using straight line is complicated enough -using curves is a can of worms.

Just put in as many points as you like to get what you want.
Not true, as I mentioned, all continuous curves can be approximated as lines... If it it can be done with lines it can be done with continuous curves.

The mathematics proves this and hence you didn't dig deep enough. In fact, reaper already approximates the continuous curves as splines because that is all a digital computer can do(everything is discrete in nature since the computer is a device that is discreatized... e.g., digit audio).

For example, suppose we wanted the exponential curve between two points.

f(t) = a*exp(b*t)

between points 0 and 1, where a and b are appropriately chosen.

then f(0 + k*dt) = a*exp(b*dt)

is really just a set of N points which are then connected by lines to interpolate.

This is all reaper does behind the scenes(even if it uses the continuous formula) for it's curves in other areas...

For example, if N = 2, then

f(0) = a and f(1) = a*exp(b)

where a and b are chosen to to map between the two tempo points. It's just a line though. So a spline of degree 1 for f(t) above is just single straight line.

Reaper has no problems with lines, right?

So, having an order 2 just splits the midpoint and adds two lines... which again, reaper can do lines.

Since, we can do this by hand with lines and draw any curve, or use a script to draw them(which I already have done but it is tedious), your conclusions are wrong and I suggest you go back and figure out where your logic went wrong.

Again, if it can do it with lines then it can do it with any curve that can be approximated by splines and everyone familiar with calculus knows this is all continuous functions.


What you have to get through your *thick* skull(not an attack, but get upset if you must) is that:

1. Reaper allows one to use lines to draw any curve.
2. Any "curve" can be draw with lines.
3. Any existing problem with "curves" will also exist with lines.

It is simply false to state what you have. You may believe what you say is true but it is fundamentally false(and it can be proven).

For example, Could you not write a script that simply draws the curves for you(what reaper does for envelopes) as splines(lines?) With significant degree of accuracy?(N is large))

If so, then that means reaper can do it too.

One can claim that curves have problems, but they have no more problems than lines have because any curve is a spline and a spline is lines... it's basic logic.

Again, I'm not asking for some infinite precision processor...

The fact is, if one can do it with lines then they can do it with curves to all practical accuracy required... to pretend otherwise is being ignorant. (It's ignorance because it perpetuates a falsity which is wrong. I know that no one likes to be wrong but it's ok to put your emotions aside for the truth.)

(Again, I'm not attacking you, just trying to correct your misconception so you benefit from increased awareness(hopefully you care enough about it to not get emotional)).


All you have to do is this:

1. Convince yourself that any curve that is continuous can be approximated by lines to any degree of accuracy is a fact. If you don't believe this then we can prove you are wrong quite easily and so it will solve that problem, so assume it is true for now if you disagree.

2. Reaper handles lines(splines) without issue(or with issue, it doesn't matter because if it has issues with lines then it will have them independently of the curves and so the curves have nothing to do with that problem).

Hence curves have no problem being implemented. Again, there is ample proof in many directions to show that reaper is fully capable of implementing this. Saying it can't on belief is not good enough, you must prove it can't handle it for some reason.. I've already proven that there is no logical reason why it can't do it and it has all the tech to do it... the question is if the will is there to do it.
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Old 01-18-2019, 09:38 AM   #6
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Old 01-18-2019, 12:53 PM   #7
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Yes, that is your response, no logic, no proof, just a attacking the messenger that proved you wrong instead of working towards a proper solution... You are clueless and your response proves it. I will not respond to you, I'm sure I will get reprimanded for "attacking" you, and you will get away with it. So be it...
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Old 01-19-2019, 09:14 AM   #8
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Not true, as I mentioned, all continuous curves can be approximated as lines... If it it can be done with lines it can be done with continuous curves.
You good at math but not at programming. Just because you can express ideas in formulas it doesn't mean you can turn them into usable code. The implementation of algorithm must be fast enough to work in real time. And too make it even more tricky all the tiny tempo changes must be signalled to all the synchronized plugins (synths but also all FX with tempo sync). In the end you won't have only an apoximation of a curve despite all your nice math.

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Originally Posted by InfiniteDimensionality View Post
What you have to get through your *thick* skull(not an attack, but get upset if you must) is that:
If it's not meant as an attack that then I wonder how you talk to people in your daily life.

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Old 01-19-2019, 05:09 PM   #9
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You good at math but not at programming. Just because you can express ideas in formulas it doesn't mean you can turn them into usable code. The implementation of algorithm must be fast enough to work in real time. And too make it even more tricky all the tiny tempo changes must be signalled to all the synchronized plugins (synths but also all FX with tempo sync). In the end you won't have only an apoximation of a curve despite all your nice math.


If it's not meant as an attack that then I wonder how you talk to people in your daily life.

Masi
No, this is an attack: You are an idiot.

I've actually been programming 20+ years, about twice as long as I have done math.

You obviously have less programming experience.

1. Reaper already uses the mathematical expressions for the envelopes and so has no problem with processing. Sure the tempo map may be more intensive but not any more than any other... but if you actually were as good a programmer as you think:

2. No one says the curves have to be computed at play time. Reaper can easily internally compute the spline and simply display it in continuous form but internally pre-compute it for performance reasons.


See, the problem with people like you is that you are ignorant and your ignorance makes you believe you actually know what you are talking about. Hence why I called you an idiot. It is not actually an attack, but a true statement.


See, On one hand you say reaper can do it with splines... then on the other hand you say it can't be done with continuous mathematical curves and your ignorance fails to realize they are actually the same.

There is no such thing as continuous mathematical functions, it is made up in mans mind. There are actually no such things as lines, too are made up idealizations of a collection of points.

The only difference between representation is computational power and representation. You at least claim it is a computation issue, which is acceptable since DAW's must run in real time...

But then you fail to have the knowledge to realize that it is not a computation issue because it can be precomputed.

You don't seem to understand that if I can do it by hand then it can be done by automation...

I already have a script that can draw any mathematical curves I choose... I simply draws them as a spline. It has no issues and I can approximate them to any desired degree.

Reaper can simply do this. You want an sigmoid curve then it draws it as a spline and you see it in the tempo map as a spline. THAT WORKS as is. It can do this now without issue and it alleviates the problem. It's not ideal because we can't then easily change it without having to change all the lines.

Hence, it can internally precompute it for performance, if that is a problem and then visually we can see it as the continuous function.


See, you can make claims that something is impossible, but you actually have to prove it to be logically and correct. None of you have donee so and you offer no real facts why it would be impossible, just your own ignorance based opinions.

When I come along and say it can be done almost surely I am made out to be the bad guy. I'm suppose to, what? Suck up and kiss your feat for being the gods you think you are? Seriously?

Seriously! Do you ever stop to analyze your own thinking to see if it actually makes sense? You are saying that something is *IMPOSSIBLE* to do! H ow the hell do you actually know that to be able to say it? Do you have a god complex? Did you prove it was impossible mathematically?

See, what you idiots(that is the correct term, which I will explain why shortly, get offended if you want), do is accept something as impossible when it is actually possible. You justify it with false hoods and say "It is impossible because of X"... and I say "no, that is wrong, it is not impossible because of X" and I back up my claims. Instead of attacking my claims and pointing out errors like I have done with yours you attack me. Now, that is essentially being an idiot. What would be awesome if you guys just recognized what you are so you could learn and grow and stop limiting yourself and everyone else because of your ignorance.

Just ask yourself this: "What if it is possible"? "What if it is actually very easy to do"? "What if it could be done(coded) in a few hours and work well"?

That is, simply ask yourself "What if I am wrong". Which you have not done and so that is what makes you an idiot. Because you refuse to question your own intelligence you will always remain ignorant.
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Old 01-20-2019, 03:33 AM   #10
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No, this is an attack: You are an idiot.
I stopped reading exactly here.

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Old 01-20-2019, 09:08 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by InfiniteDimensionality View Post
I've actually been programming 20+ years, about twice as long as I have done math. You obviously have less programming experience ...
Woaa - if you get so emotional enraged about such a small point
you need to care not to die of cardiac infarction. Care for
yourself!

Quote:
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... if it can do it with lines then it can do it with any curve that can be approximated by splines.
Yes, this is something everyone learns in school.

For me this is an argument for the thesis that
reaper doesn't need automation-curves, because
linear lines are enough. You said is yourself:
With these linear parts you can approximate every
curve. That means: Curves are not needed!

Also Reaper needn't be a mathematical playground
for curve-addicts. For me it's enough if I can do
any practical automation - gladly with linear fragments
only.
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