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Old 12-09-2016, 04:52 PM   #1
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Default I can't understand what happened to program accuracy? (SOLVED)

I can't understand what happened to program accuracy?
or have I missed something?


Reaper 5.01


Reaper 5.28


Reaper 5.30pre11

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Old 12-09-2016, 08:35 PM   #2
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What happened is it got accurate Starting with 5.28 the piano roll displays MIDI events at their exact MIDI tick location. Depending on the exact placement of MIDI media items, start offset, time signature, and grid settings, the project grid divisions may not fall exactly on MIDI tick divisions. This is only noticeable when zoomed very far in, as in your screencaps. But what you are seeing is exactly what is being played back.

(Assuming the screencaps are all the same project, in 5.20 you would find that events that appear to be exactly snapped to a grid line while editing might be in a different location if the project is closed and reopened, because the fractional displayed locations are not the exact tick locations of events.)

Given a project with no partial measures, MIDI media items that are snapped to the beat, no start offset in the media items, and grid settings that divide evenly into the MIDI ppq setting, then MIDI ticks should align with the grid. If you are not able to snap MIDI events to a specific grid position that you want to, then one of those things must not be the case in your project.
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Old 12-09-2016, 11:16 PM   #3
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What happened is it got accurate Starting with 5.28 the piano roll displays MIDI events at their exact MIDI tick location. Depending on the exact placement of MIDI media items, start offset, time signature, and grid settings, the project grid divisions may not fall exactly on MIDI tick divisions. This is only noticeable when zoomed very far in, as in your screencaps. But what you are seeing is exactly what is being played back.

(Assuming the screencaps are all the same project, in 5.20 you would find that events that appear to be exactly snapped to a grid line while editing might be in a different location if the project is closed and reopened, because the fractional displayed locations are not the exact tick locations of events.)

Given a project with no partial measures, MIDI media items that are snapped to the beat, no start offset in the media items, and grid settings that divide evenly into the MIDI ppq setting, then MIDI ticks should align with the grid. If you are not able to snap MIDI events to a specific grid position that you want to, then one of those things must not be the case in your project.
No one wants that. Its not reliable.
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Old 12-10-2016, 12:54 AM   #4
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No one wants that. Its not reliable.
I want it. I'd expect anyone doing work that requires such extreme zoom levels would want what they see to accurately reflect what's actually possible. If a project is set up in such a way as to make precise grid placement impossible, that's information worth having.
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Old 12-10-2016, 01:17 AM   #5
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I want it. I'd expect anyone doing work that requires such extreme zoom levels would want what they see to accurately reflect what's actually possible. If a project is set up in such a way as to make precise grid placement impossible, that's information worth having.
First of all, how come grid in a software wouldn't be reflected accurately? That's absurd. bar lines are there for the accuracy in the first place. Second, it is not only limited to far in zoom. I had longer notes being offset by length of a 8th note, off grid, off midi item ( something apparently impossible in reaper ) and wasn't able to place them on to the grid. had to remove whole midi item, and extend previous item again, glue it and then split and it was displayed on the gird this time. This sux, and is not a feature but confusing pain in the ass. And if grids are not accurate, then those need to be fixed, so notes are being displayed on the grid. Fucking imagine they'd be building bridges like that.
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Old 12-10-2016, 01:32 AM   #6
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Sorry but you're not correct here, Mik. Schwa gave good reasons why it had to be fixed to be like this. Also, how is it NOT reliable if it displays EXACTLY what gets played back? That's, like, ultimate reliability.
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Old 12-10-2016, 01:45 AM   #7
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Sorry but you're not correct here, Mik. Schwa gave good reasons why it had to be fixed to be like this. Also, how is it NOT reliable if it displays EXACTLY what gets played back? That's, like, ultimate reliability.
Shouldn't the grid reflect that? That's what it is for, right? And if you want to get some of your notes to play slightly earlier or later, how do you know which notes were already edited and which were not, when you have loads of midi tracks to take care of? You also don't know if the notes was offset by a bug, by yourself or by accidental move. On top of that, when you get your note beginning move outside your midi item because of this "accurate positioning", you can't grab its front and edit it at all. Simultaneously if it goes beyond the end of the item, you can grab it from that side. That was happening to me recently. This is not helpful at all.
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Old 12-10-2016, 01:58 AM   #8
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And if grids are not accurate, then those need to be fixed, so notes are being displayed on the grid.
The point is that a project can be configured in such a way that, while the grid is accurate, no MIDI tick might occur on a particular grid location. The resolution of the grid and the resolution allowed by the MIDI protocol may not coincide.

You seem to be arguing that in this case it would be preferable to display notes in locations where they cannot actually occur.
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Old 12-10-2016, 02:00 AM   #9
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You seem to be arguing that in this case it would be preferable to display notes in locations where they cannot actually occur.
And that would be FAR from preferable. It's good that schwa fixed it.
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Old 12-10-2016, 05:00 AM   #10
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Recent innovations feature "Edit: Move left edge of note to edit cursor" does not work properly.
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Old 12-10-2016, 05:06 AM   #11
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Recent innovations feature "Edit: Move left edge of note to edit cursor" does not work properly.
That one works fine here.
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Old 12-10-2016, 05:34 AM   #12
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Shouldn't the grid reflect that? That's what it is for, right? And if you want to get some of your notes to play slightly earlier or later, how do you know which notes were already edited and which were not, when you have loads of midi tracks to take care of? You also don't know if the notes was offset by a bug, by yourself or by accidental move.
There are various ways to get the scenario that MIDI notes cannot be snapped to the grid but they all require an unsnapped edit somewhere along the line. If you have a project where you cannot snap to what you want, feel free to post it (stripped down to just one track with no FX) and I would be happy to figure out why.

If you do make an unsnapped edit, and then find that MIDI notes don't snap to the grid, what do you think should happen?
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Old 12-10-2016, 05:38 AM   #13
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There are various ways to get the scenario that MIDI notes cannot be snapped to the grid but they all require an unsnapped edit somewhere along the line. If you have a project where you cannot snap to what you want, feel free to post it (stripped down to just one track with no FX) and I would be happy to figure out why.

If you do make an unsnapped edit, and then find that MIDI notes don't snap to the grid, what do you think should happen?
I have snapping to the left selected, and no other form of snapping. If I edit note without snapping, and I leave it there, I expect it to be there even after turning snapping on. But what I don't expect is to have snapping on, create snapped note, split item, and then find it is actually not snapped neither snapping to the visible grid at all, as it would exist on completely different plane. Also, since we are at it, snapping to grid doesn't work for edit cursor at close zooms. Gimme a mo, will make gif for you.
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Old 12-10-2016, 05:39 AM   #14
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Schwa, thanks for the clarification. But now the functionality of the grid approaches the dial of this watch))
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Old 12-10-2016, 05:43 AM   #15
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@Schwa There you go https://i.imgur.com/sVItX9y.gifv

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Schwa, thanks for the clarification. But now the functionality of the grid approaches the dial of this watch))
Nah, it's more precise now with an extra layer of imaginary grid.
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Old 12-10-2016, 06:21 AM   #16
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I have snapping to the left selected, and no other form of snapping. If I edit note without snapping, and I leave it there, I expect it to be there even after turning snapping on. But what I don't expect is to have snapping on, create snapped note, split item, and then find it is actually not snapped neither snapping to the visible grid at all, as it would exist on completely different plane.
Sorry I'm not quite following this. If you edit a note and split the media item on the grid, MIDI events in both resulting items should still be on the grid. It requires an unsnapped edit to get events that are not on the grid.

I'm not trying to be a purist about this, but the fact is that MIDI events exist on a MIDI ppq grid, which in most cases will align with the project beat grid. If your edits are always snapped to the grid, then MIDI events will stay on the same grid as the project. It requires an unsnapped edit for MIDI events to get off the project grid.

In your example above, if you split the media item at an unsnapped point, and then snapped the right-hand side to the grid, then MIDI events in that item will no longer be on the grid. The only way to prevent this would be to prevent that unsnapped split in the first place.
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Old 12-10-2016, 06:27 AM   #17
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Sorry I'm not quite following this. If you edit a note and split the media item on the grid, MIDI events in both resulting items should still be on the grid. It requires an unsnapped edit to get events that are not on the grid.

I'm not trying to be a purist about this, but the fact is that MIDI events exist on a MIDI ppq grid, which in most cases will align with the project beat grid. If your edits are always snapped to the grid, then MIDI events will stay on the same grid as the project. It requires an unsnapped edit for MIDI events to get off the project grid.

In your example above, if you split the media item at an unsnapped point, and then snapped the right-hand side to the grid, then MIDI events in that item will no longer be on the grid. The only way to prevent this would be to prevent that unsnapped split in the first place.
What happened couple of days ago was the following: I had midi item with some long notes, and snapping was on. I split it at the grid. The result was that in the right midi item the couple of spitted notes were moved around 8th note to the left, exceeding beyond right boundary of midi item. And they were not on the grid. I tried moving them, but they were stuck.
Around the same time, similar thing had happened, but I could move that one note, although I could not place it on the grid at all. it was in it's own space. Snapping was on, and I work primarily with snapping on.

Example I'm showing you, seams to be edit cursor snapping bug. As you can see snapping is on, but edit cursor can be placed whenever as long as it is bit further from visible grid.
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Old 12-10-2016, 06:34 AM   #18
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If you can give me a way to reproduce getting a note that can't be edited, I'd be happy to look at it.

With the edit cursor snapping issue, it's hard to see what's happening from a screencap. Snapping seems predictable here. Could you post specific steps to reproduce the problem, with a small project if it's specific to the project?
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Old 12-10-2016, 06:44 AM   #19
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If you can give me a way to reproduce getting a note that can't be edited, I'd be happy to look at it.

With the edit cursor snapping issue, it's hard to see what's happening from a screencap. Snapping seems predictable here. Could you post specific steps to reproduce the problem, with a small project if it's specific to the project?
It's not project specific. you got to zoom in to the cursor, then click on the ruler past around 1/4 of the project area width away for cursor to loose snapping.

My snapping setting:
http://imgur.com/a/d56Kf

EDIT@ zoom in till you see time like this : x:xx:xx0, x:xx:xx2, x:xx:xx4 etc altought this snapping issue could be happening at smaller zooms .
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Old 12-10-2016, 06:50 AM   #20
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Sorry, I can't reproduce. I have my snap settings set up the same as yours. Am I doing something different? At the end of the screencap I am zoomed all the way in.

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Old 12-10-2016, 06:53 AM   #21
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Sorry, I can't reproduce. I have my snap settings set up the same as yours. Am I doing something different? At the end of the screencap I am zoomed all the way in.

Try main area. I'm not sure if this problem exists in midi editor, but let me check. EDIT2@ No, It is only happening in main area it seam.
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Old 12-10-2016, 06:58 AM   #22
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That one works fine here.
You tell it fine?
Attached Images
File Type: png 2016-12-10_15-55-22.png (57.3 KB, 251 views)
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Old 12-10-2016, 06:59 AM   #23
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Schwa : https://i.imgur.com/xxm8a0z.gifv
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Old 12-10-2016, 07:07 AM   #24
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You tell it fine?
It looks like the edit cursor is not snapped to the grid. The MIDI note can't move to a location that is not an exact MIDI ppq position.
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Old 12-10-2016, 07:10 AM   #25
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zoom in to the cursor, then click on the ruler past around 1/4 of the project area width away for cursor to loose snapping.
Ah sorry, because of your custom theme I thought you were in the MIDI editor.

Yes, I can confirm this behavior. In the arrange view, clicking more than 1/4 of the screen distance away from a snap point will move the edit cursor, even if "snap to grid at any distance" is enabled. We will think about the best way to handle this.
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Old 12-10-2016, 07:16 AM   #26
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Ah sorry, because of your custom theme I thought you were in the MIDI editor.

Yes, I can confirm this behavior. In the arrange view, clicking more than 1/4 of the screen distance away from a snap point will move the edit cursor, even if "snap to grid at any distance" is enabled. We will think about the best way to handle this.
Great!

Now lets go back to the notes position issue. When I read in one of the pre releases posts that you are working on better midi precision, I got excited because I thought you meant playback precision, like it is in cubase for example. But you were talking about having notes positioned according to midi clock ticks and not playback I presume? hahaha If so, you guys got to reverse it back and work on playback precision for notes and cc's instead.
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Old 12-10-2016, 07:23 AM   #27
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In 5.25 we made it so notes are always drawn at their exact MIDI ppq position. In 5.26 we improved macOS MIDI hardware input/output jitter. In 5.27 we improved Windows MIDI hardware output jitter.

What should we "reverse back"?

What problems are you seeing with MIDI playback accuracy, that Cubase does differently?
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Old 12-10-2016, 07:30 AM   #28
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In 5.25 we made it so notes are always drawn at their exact MIDI ppq position. In 5.26 we improved macOS MIDI hardware input/output jitter. In 5.27 we improved Windows MIDI hardware output jitter.

What should we "reverse back"?

What problems are you seeing with MIDI playback accuracy, that Cubase does differently?
Ok, you got to make notes snap to grid again, always, because every now and then, now they are not doing so.

I don't exactly know what under cubase hood, but whenever I play something in it it sounds more even, tighter and sharper, were both daws have same block size set up. A while ago I've made A-B compassion, and many people noticed too that track B sounded sharper and tighter( especially in bass and hights ), not knowing it was cubase. Both had same pan law set up, same block size, and same automation. I can only refer you to trying out cubase demo and see for yourself, having a sampler with same preset playing automated arpeggio in both daws.

Here are A B tracks https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0j...ew?usp=sharing an thread http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=174042

Also, Schwa, when are you going to incorporate proper editing toolset for midi editor? Again look at how cubase dealt with it, it's not perfect, but it does the job fast and efficiently. being able to automate cc's without reamidiwhatever would be a step in right direction too, with same kind of tools that midi editor would have. I've spent last 3 weeks trying to improve reaper with scripts and action, and it all just got bloated, and most of the scripts are working partialy, requiring a lot of user input to do anything.
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Old 12-10-2016, 07:47 AM   #29
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The note snapping issue is explained in technical detail above. You can make project edits that cause MIDI notes to not snap to the grid. This was always the case, but before 5.26 the notes would be drawn so that they appeared to snap. We're not going to revert back to that behavior because it was inaccurate. If your edits are always snapped to the grid, then MIDI events should always be snappable to the grid.

"it sounds more even, tighter and sharper" is not something we can do anything with and is similar to discussions about the audio quality of DAW A vs DAW B.

Respectfully, I will bow out of this part of the conversation. I appreciate the report about arrange view "snap to grid at any distance" not working as expected. As always we are happy to look at any specific issues of behavior that is not as expected, and any specific suggestions for how to change that behavior.
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Old 12-10-2016, 07:55 AM   #30
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The note snapping issue is explained in technical detail above. You can make project edits that cause MIDI notes to not snap to the grid. This was always the case, but before 5.26 the notes would be drawn so that they appeared to snap. We're not going to revert back to that behavior because it was inaccurate. If your edits are always snapped to the grid, then MIDI events should always be snappable to the grid.

"it sounds more even, tighter and sharper" is not something we can do anything with and is similar to discussions about the audio quality of DAW A vs DAW B.

Respectfully, I will bow out of this part of the conversation. I appreciate the report about arrange view "snap to grid at any distance" not working as expected. As always we are happy to look at any specific issues of behavior that is not as expected, and any specific suggestions for how to change that behavior.
So re snapping: I on't understand. I just drew some notes with and without snapping on, moved them around, and in both cases when spanning is on, they snapped back to the grid. However, the miss-snapping issue is happening at random, and sometimes they will not be displayed snapped, yo move them around and they'd behave like they are snapping, but not to the visible gird, only to not existing, relative grid.

Re daws: no, it's nothing to do with any form of daw x better then daw y. Each has got something good to offer and goal of any dev should be to take best ideas that are in other products and incorporate them. And i'm talking about basic ideas for making things better, not some nebulous multipurpose tools, but basics. And as for sound produced, it's noticeable, so why wouldn't you want to check it out? If I had soft out, and had people calming this, I'd check it out, because null tests can only take you so far, then there is the real world scenario of producing sound made out of many components.
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Old 12-10-2016, 08:02 AM   #31
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So re snapping: So if I move a note now without snap, but I decided later I want it to be snapped, I turn snapping back on and try to move it to snap, it wont snap?
Incorrect. This has nothing to do with how you edit the notes inside the media item. It's about edits to the media item itself, in the arrange view.

If you move the whole media item unsnapped, the notes in that won't snap to the grid any more. If you then snap the media item back to the grid, the notes will snap.

Generally, if the start of the source media is on the grid, all of the notes in the item can be snapped to the grid.
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Old 12-10-2016, 08:06 AM   #32
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I don't exactly know what under cubase hood, but whenever I play something in it it sounds more even, tighter and sharper, were both daws have same block size set up. A while ago I've made A-B compassion, and many people noticed too that track B sounded sharper and tighter( especially in bass and hights ), not knowing it was cubase.
Really Mik? Sharper highs and tighter lows - don't you think this complaint is wasting dev's time? Where is that and where is reporting a specific bug in Reaper. Make a minimal project demonstrating the problem so there is something to test.
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Old 12-10-2016, 08:14 AM   #33
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Incorrect. This has nothing to do with how you edit the notes inside the media item. It's about edits to the media item itself, in the arrange view.

If you move the whole media item unsnapped, the notes in that won't snap to the grid any more. If you then snap the media item back to the grid, the notes will snap.

Generally, if the start of the source media is on the grid, all of the notes in the item can be snapped to the grid.
Ok, but the issue occurred when snapping was on in main and editor views. NOTES JUST GO OUT OF SNAP BY THEMSELVES sometimes! I'll keep my eye n this and when i get the issue again, I'll make images. And would you also want some sort of history of actions?
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Old 12-10-2016, 08:15 AM   #34
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Really Mik? Sharper highs and tighter lows - don't you think this complaint is wasting dev's time? Where is that and where is reporting a specific bug in Reaper. Make a minimal project demonstrating the problem so there is something to test.
It wasn't as much as complain, as just observation. I learned to live with that thought it would be nice if that area was improved too. But I am more concerned about the tools that are just not present.
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Old 12-10-2016, 08:38 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by MikComposer View Post
Ok, but the issue occurred when snapping was on in main and editor views. NOTES JUST GO OUT OF SNAP BY THEMSELVES sometimes! I'll keep my eye n this and when i get the issue again, I'll make images. And would you also want some sort of history of actions?
If you get a scenario where events do not snap where you want to, what would be most useful is to strip the project down to just that track (ideally with just that note) with no FX and post it. We should be able to tell you what kind of project edit caused the MIDI events to not be precisely on the project grid.

Also please note that with typical settings, even if you have done some unsnapped project edits that cause a MIDI event to not be precisely on the project grid, "not precisely" is still within 1/2 of one millisecond of the grid. And being off the grid by 1/2 of one millisecond represents precise accuracy in how the events are displayed and played back, not inaccuracy.
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Old 12-10-2016, 08:43 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
If you get a scenario where events do not snap where you want to, what would be most useful is to strip the project down to just that track (ideally with just that note) with no FX and post it. We should be able to tell you what kind of project edit caused the MIDI events to not be precisely on the project grid.

Also please note that with typical settings, even if you have done some unsnapped project edits that cause a MIDI event to not be precisely on the project grid, "not precisely" is still within 1/2 of one millisecond of the grid. And being off the grid by 1/2 of one millisecond represents precise accuracy in how the events are displayed and played back, not inaccuracy.
All right. Thanks.
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Old 12-10-2016, 02:26 PM   #37
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If you set a high PPQ value, then any inaccuracies resulting from the project beat grid and a midi item's tick grid not corresponding are less and less significant. Seeing as there is no disadvantage (as far as I know?) to setting an extremely high PPQ, "tightness" of the sound isn't really an issue.

An instance where you're unable to edit predictably because of differences between tick and beat grid would be of concern, although I have never noticed that myself.

Anyone have thoughts on why it would not be a good idea to simply increase the PPQ? The higher the better right?
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Old 12-10-2016, 02:43 PM   #38
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Not sure if this is handled by Reaper in some way, but much higher PPQ could impact things when dealing with MIDI hardware units, which are in a large amount of cases 960 PPQ (sending way too much data than the unit is able to process, potentially freezing/crashing it).
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Old 12-10-2016, 03:15 PM   #39
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Yes, that's the one potential issue that I'm aware of. But as long as you're within Reaper, there shouldn't be any real barrier to having PPQ even as high as audio rate. I remember Justin confirming something to this effect.

It seems like a disconnect to me that so many people obsess over the minutia of audio recording fidelity, but allow their midi recordings to be reduced to such low PPQ values. More on topic, Mik you were saying Cubase has a tighter sound, but doesn't it cap PPQ at 960?
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Old 12-26-2016, 03:40 AM   #40
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I think for this reason and this bug when copying occurs. There are short fragments of notes though length of notes was precisely on a grid.

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