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Old 08-20-2019, 10:25 AM   #321
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When multiple musicians come together, they need to communicate.

To communicate, there needs to be an agreement of terms.


That terminology needs to be reliable to be effective.

There is no point in saying "try Dorian over Am-D" if that will not be understood for what it needs to be.

Language is fluid, and terms change.
As noted, the modal names have been botched along the way, and lord knows what else, but the language is extremely effective at allowing people to convey musical ideas.

Like, say, a progression like Am-D/F#-G-E/G#
A continuous piece of music, fully transportable to any instrument, conveyed in less than 15 characters.
Yet it doesn't mean a thing unless the reader agrees as well.
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Old 08-20-2019, 10:47 AM   #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeolian View Post
When multiple musicians come together, they need to communicate.
To communicate, there needs to be an agreement of terms.
...
A continuous piece of music, fully transportable to any instrument, conveyed in less than 15 characters.
Yet it doesn't mean a thing unless the reader agrees as well.
Absolutely! The idea is that time is what we humans do not have yet (at least not till they find and change the genome for what we call 'ageing').
That is one of the reasons I didn't go to Music college or Uni - standard staff is in the curriculum. The second one - the standard piano keyboard is in the curriculum.
So, I had to come up with something as an alternative.
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Old 08-20-2019, 11:38 AM   #323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeolian View Post
To communicate, there needs to be an agreement of terms.


That terminology needs to be reliable to be effective.

There is no point in saying "try Dorian over Am-D" if that will not be understood for what it needs to be.

Language is fluid, and terms change.
As noted, the modal names have been botched along the way, and lord knows what else, but the language is extremely effective at allowing people to convey musical ideas.

I absolutely agree and with the addition that musicians need to also say,

"try Dorian over that 'A flat minor sharp 9' ..no not that one, the one in measure 9, because that's the accented one"

and that is tooooo much of a mouthful if they could say something much simpler instead like "try dorian over that four dot prime".

Likewise as notation, an audio producer would say "we need to cut more at 2k" or slightly more specific "we need to cut more at 2k hertz" instead of the bigger mouthful "we need to cut at 2 thousand cycles per second" ...because a bunch of physicists got together at a conference long ago and decided that "cycles per second" would be notationally referred to, permanently everywhere, as Hz or Hertz. that is how notation is revamped in other areas of study... I doubt many physicists were complaining "naw, you'll never get anyone to agree to use that instead of 'cycles per second'" or "naw, the current way works fine, this is a useless change"
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Old 08-20-2019, 11:50 AM   #324
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two simple examples of notation for the brief previous staff discussion -

1. accent marks above noteheads causing visual complexity with ledger lines and phrase marks. Switch of clefs within the left hand part.




2. offset note alignment to indicate expression



3. some nice accidentals





also now i remember that there is a significant push in staff notation to improve the method of indicating time signature (the 3/4 or 4/4 at left) for example, using a note-value indication as the bottom half, ex : " 3/{insert picture of quarter note here} "

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Old 08-20-2019, 02:22 PM   #325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vdubreeze View Post
if well communicated by the speaker, the context has always, when I've been present, made it not ambiguous.

the five contains the four
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Old 08-20-2019, 02:43 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by superblonde.org View Post

"try Dorian over that 'A flat minor sharp 9' ..no not that one, the one in measure 9, because that's the accented one"
"A flat minor sharp 9" is nonsense, a chord that doesn't even exist.
What about the rest of these ramblings?
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Old 08-20-2019, 03:01 PM   #327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolbass View Post
"A flat minor sharp 9" is nonsense, a chord that doesn't even exist.
What about the rest of these ramblings?
Hahahaha, that was really good!
Well, again, it shows the ambiguity of this system. First you can call a black key either sharp or flat (depending on the contest of the scale or chord name, so to avoid doubling, hence - ambiguity... creating ambiguity... to avoid ambiguity?!).
Then the intervals: you can call a minor third a hiatus as well (again depending on the context of a scale, mode). Also double sharps and double flats - marvellous!
A♭min#9 perhaps is some kind of attempt of being precise, so that "minor 3rd" has been repeated in an octave higher (so no need to take a look at the staff to know exactly how to play the voicing of it)? Or it was a typo and he meant: A♭min♭9G♯min♯8
(that is using seven symbols to describe a chord, consistent of most likely 4 notes - in PNS you would use 4 symbols and the precision of the inversion, voicing will be ideal)

Also, you must love those designations like: no3rd, add9, sus4...

I thought this thread was coming to an end, but it gets even more entertaining!
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Old 08-20-2019, 05:20 PM   #328
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it shows the ambiguity of this system
the idea that " that doesn't even exist " is ridiculous in itself, suddenly there are rules for what makes a chord a real chord, when those same posters are claiming they know theory? someone want to tell Joe Zawinul ? That someone would, I assume, get thrown out of the rehearsal room..

https://www.offtonic.com/theory/book/6-4.html#the-s9 : "Chord naming is really awkward when you step outside of a simple tertian context. ... the #9 is an extension. If you have it without the 7th, you just have a triad with two thirds, and that's a weird sound that some people like."
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Old 08-20-2019, 06:20 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by superblonde.org View Post
the idea that " that doesn't even exist " is ridiculous in itself, suddenly there are rules for what makes a chord a real chord, when those same posters are claiming they know theory? someone want to tell Joe Zawinul ? That someone would, I assume, get thrown out of the rehearsal room..

https://www.offtonic.com/theory/book/6-4.html#the-s9 : "Chord naming is really awkward when you step outside of a simple tertian context. ... the #9 is an extension. If you have it without the 7th, you just have a triad with two thirds, and that's a weird sound that some people like."
Well, "stenfrtdage" is a word that does not exist in any meaningful way or language.
I just created it. It is nonsense.
"A flat minor sharp 9" does not exist in any meaningful way. It is nonsense.
I am sure Joe Zawinul never used that chordsymbol. It makes no sense.
"A flat 7 sharp 9" or Ab7#9 makes perfect sense though.

But hey guys, don't let me stop you from rambling on.

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Old 08-20-2019, 06:26 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by coolbass View Post
"A flat minor sharp 9" does not exist in any meaningful way. It is nonsense.
I am sure Joe Zawinul never used that chordsymbol. It makes no sense.

But hey guys, don't let me stop you from rambling on.
It's a silly way to say A flat minor that's for sure; it's like going around your elbow to get to your thumb. And if someone asked me to play it by ^that name, I might let them know why it's silly.
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Old 08-20-2019, 06:31 PM   #331
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If look at the "known" reference A4 = 440 Hz
(which is questionable and not so well defined by anything, but that is another topic)

442 Hz in europe

(lol maybe since vocalists are always flat, ... )
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Old 08-20-2019, 06:42 PM   #332
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"related to grand staff ... "common meter" or "common time" with the indicator "C". ... what the "C" really, originally means. And it's not an abbreviation for "common.""


Quote:
Originally Posted by adXok View Post
I think that C comes from the roman word Compas, which means "measuring time" or "time-ruler" or "tempo (time-change-measure)". Not entirely sure though...
Error is too strong, it was more of a authoritative imposition of views and practices.
it's not that. the "C" is not an abbreviation of a word. i dont know where the error started from, who knows, probably those 'well meaning music tutors' who were toooo threatened to say "I don't know" when asked what the notation really means ...

after some other supposed reaper-forum 'music theory expert' takes a guess (which will likely be wrong just like nearly all piano instructors are wrong) i'll post the real answer..
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Old 08-20-2019, 06:44 PM   #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolbass View Post
Well, "stenfrtdage" is a word that does not exist in any meaningful way or language.
I just created it. It is nonsense.
"A flat minor sharp 9" does not exist in any meaningful way. It is nonsense.
I am sure Joe Zawinul never used that chordsymbol. It makes no sense.
"A flat 7 sharp 9" or Ab7#9 makes perfect sense though.

But hey guys, don't let me stop you from rambling on.

it was originally a typo because a loud annoying person was talking 'at' me while i was trying to type, but dont let that stop you from being a troll on this thread :-P
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Old 08-20-2019, 07:26 PM   #334
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it was originally a typo because a loud annoying person was talking 'at' me while i was trying to type, but dont let that stop you from being a troll on this thread :-P
Just start making sense.

Calling the ancient music notation and music theory system flawed, and then make such a "typo" and not realize it, tells a lot.

All the alternative systems proposed here are illegible!
Are you a working musician in the real world?

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Old 08-20-2019, 07:28 PM   #335
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Just start making sense.
or you: go away
or you: be productive & drop the naysaying

or also you: stop editing messages to add trolling after the fact

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Old 08-20-2019, 11:19 PM   #336
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442 Hz in europe

(lol maybe since vocalists are always flat, ... )
Nah man, we don't use the imperial Hertz.
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Old 08-21-2019, 12:38 AM   #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolbass View Post
All the alternative systems proposed here are illegible!
Says who? The Holy Inquisition when they try to read the works of Galileo with the "forbidden books".


coolbass,
please, are you telling us, that you started reading/writing the standard staff right away (like it was plain English).
Oh, wait. You didn't start right away with reading/writing in English either.

coolbass,
like it is with every language, you first start with... the alphabet.

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Old 08-21-2019, 12:46 AM   #338
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By the way I also love that designation:

no3rd

five symbols to solely describe the lack of a note...




Chords - look at the the writing of those
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Old 08-21-2019, 06:50 AM   #339
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Examples please. I could just as well tell someone who is interested in electronics: Well, if you go study particle physics you will understand conventional flow.
Wrong. Here is why:

Understand flow is not a human process. You don't "do" flow, it is.

Music is a subjective human process. Telling is not the same as teaching. Knowing is not the same as understanding.

IMO you should know diatonic harmony, and if you do then it becomes evident why 135b7 is called "dominant". It is a disservice to just say why. It's also a disservice to not know it in context. If your musical pursuits haven't brought you to that avenue, it may be you don't need to know and it's superfluous.

Lots of superfluous info on the internet. I think you should figure it out, it will stick and be more intuitive and useful. Otherwise I may as well say "it's because it's green and if you use it when the crow is barking you'll hear candy stripes lounging on the palazzo". Doesn't mean anything.

Make yourself learn diatonic harmony (on your instrument), and it's there. Where it should be.
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Old 08-21-2019, 07:01 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by coolbass View Post
"A flat minor sharp 9" is nonsense, a chord that doesn't even exist.
What about the rest of these ramblings?
Perhaps one could say that's "figured treble".
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Old 08-21-2019, 07:34 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by chip mcdonald View Post
Make yourself learn diatonic harmony (on your instrument), and it's there. Where it should be.
Absolutely essential... fundamental that is... for musicians to know their instrument(s).
But that is another subject of discussion.
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Old 08-21-2019, 04:56 PM   #342
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this is not a five

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Old 08-21-2019, 06:13 PM   #343
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famous composers writing sloppy notation still confuses players hundreds of years later ....because music theory notation is horribly flawed.



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Old 08-21-2019, 06:38 PM   #344
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music set theory with 12-tone integer notation



transposition with the 12-tone system






Music Notation using the 12-tone system within staff music


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Old 08-22-2019, 02:25 AM   #345
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The program Synthesia (used in thousands of piano tutorials and videos) you can clearly see that they have offered alternative naming systems.
Of course those systems are a joke. Why?!
Because the symbols (letters) are not unique! What were they thinking (not Synthesia, let's be clear).
Fxed-Do and Moveble-Do. Who even came up with this stupidity?!


Fixed "Do"



Movable "Do"


G E N I U S !!!
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Old 08-22-2019, 08:58 AM   #346
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hmmm, they should include MIDI Note Number in there too. At least the view would be functional, and educational to illustrate how MIDI works quite clearly.
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Old 08-22-2019, 11:12 AM   #347
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hmmm, they should include MIDI Note Number in there too. At least the view would be functional, and educational to illustrate how MIDI works quite clearly.
For that you can use MIDI-OX. It is free. Synthesia is around $35.
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Old 08-26-2019, 05:33 AM   #348
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It occurred to me today that the wheels on my bicycle are deeply flawed, since they have to be going round in order not to fall over. I don't know why anybody hasn't realised this before. Has anybody given any thought to reinventing wheels at all? Maybe making them wider than they are tall.
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Old 08-26-2019, 02:10 PM   #349
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It occurred to me today that the wheels on my bicycle are deeply flawed, since they have to be going round in order not to fall over. I don't know why anybody hasn't realised this before. Has anybody given any thought to reinventing wheels at all? Maybe making them wider than they are tall.
I am with you, buddy. The standard piano with its square shaped and bulky edged keys is a pain in the butt - like having hard edges on your tyres or wheels - will work but you have to be careful not to drive too fast or take sharp turns too much (Pashkuli keyboard allows for crazy fast arpeggios, scales, phrases, modulations are a breeze!, crazy wide chord voicing, impossible before things related to mind-blowing performance).

Enough of that rectangle nonsense. Human hand, fingers and especially the fingertips, are not rectangle.

There you have it, bolgwrad (there is this thing called Google, which somehow reinvented Central Library):
*hint: click on the image

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Old 08-28-2019, 06:31 PM   #350
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It occurred to me today that the wheels on my bicycle are deeply flawed, since they have to be going round in order not to fall over. I don't know why anybody hasn't realised this before. Has anybody given any thought to reinventing wheels at all? Maybe making them wider than they are tall.
Why do you respond in order to troll ? What offends you so much about this topic?

Are you not aware of the many professional musicians who already agree (such as in published texts) that notation is flawed, limited, and in many situations confusing?

Are you not aware of the many small kludges which are continually being tried and used by professionals as band-aids to the current awkward and ambiguous music notation system?

The thread of this topic is "How to.." not "Why not" and also not "troll here, please".
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Old 08-29-2019, 12:09 PM   #351
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Are you not aware of the many professional musicians who already agree (such as in published texts) that notation is flawed, limited, and in many situations confusing?

Are you not aware of the many small kludges which are continually being tried and used by professionals as band-aids to the current awkward and ambiguous music notation system?
Well, I have been a working musician for 40 years and I am not aware of this, nor is anyone of my close colleagues.
As in any language that developed over time, there are idiosyncrasies and exceptions to general rules.

So superblonde, are you a working professional musician?

And please, don't call everyone who does not agree with you a "troll".
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Old 08-29-2019, 05:21 PM   #352
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The underlying problem is {the use of} the word “subdominant” to mean the fourth note of the scale. I’ve encountered this usage quite frequently and in my opinion, it is a terrible idea. Tonic, subdominant and dominant are harmonic functions, so if you use the same words for specific notes it can only lead to confusion {such as demonstrated}. Additionally, consider this: if “dominant” can, in addition to a harmonic function, denote just the fifth note of the scale, the seventh degree would be a dominant-function chord without the note named dominant. Conversely, using this hair-brained naming scheme you could say that the subdominant is the seventh of the dominant chord. Besides, it is completely unnecessary to have the function names also denote specific notes, there is nothing wrong with just using the number in the scale. (For example “the fourth [note of the scale]”, the part brackets only added if context demands explicit distinction.)

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Old 08-29-2019, 05:55 PM   #353
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Well, this typical "classic" construct in the Music "theory" has been very confusing. I never quite frankly understood it.
T, S, D... T = I-IV-V-I sounds like simple style of music (genre to be more precise); like now (or in the last couple of decades) we have I-V-VI-IV popular structure. Where is the "resolve"?

Some of my favourite tunes are based on the Locrian, with chord choices beyond traditional. So, what?!

Subdominant is non-sense to me. Like saying "♭♭V" (double bemol V).

Seems like Music "theory" was the only medieval theory that hasn't seen its Galileo or Einstein. Not that there were no attempts.
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Old 08-29-2019, 06:24 PM   #354
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The overloading of terms is one of the fundamental confusing aspects of current music theory, there are so many examples of this. Referring to 'subdominant' as a scale degree (a pitch) and also as a chord. Which is what I mentioned previously with the example of 'dominant' , used to describe the fifth harmonic in the harmonic series of the fundamental, and used to name the fifth degree of the scale, and used to name a chord type, and used to name a specific chord itself (fifth chord in the progression), and as also discussed, no one can explain the origin of the term 'dominant' itself, other than the vague allusion to it being the largest (most dominating) harmonic tone of the series of harmonic tones.

With classical, I was facepalming after digging thru the origins of the term Idée fixe (literally "fixed idea" as a term for "repeated theme") or even the term ostinato ("insistent/stubborn tone" for "repetitive phrase"). It's like a braindead stoner hippie came up with these generic terms, as if saying: "Let's call it the Dude, dude. Because, it's like: dude!" It demonstrates very little creative ability let alone higher thinking. It demonstrates no thinking of the broader system of music. Invent a new word, coin a term, or name it after a significant figure, that is what inventors are supposed to do! Not describe things with terminology as vague as a six year old child: "this monster of a composition, which will stand the test of centuries as a phenomenally colored masterpiece, can best be described by saying it's fundamental distinguishing feature is.. uhh, like.. uhhh.. 'the fixed idea'."


"What is maddening in America is most people have been separated from their culture. They have been told there's a special privileged class of artists who have a special insight. A normal person doesn't have this insight. That is a monstrous lie, and it is hideous because it is taught to us early on. We are taught we're not artists. Every single day we're reminded. The special students are isolated in a class and told, "You're special, you go on. The rest of you, please become middle-class and boring.""
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Old 08-30-2019, 02:44 AM   #355
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One thing I never could get my thoughts around was the concept of "conformity" - the idea that if so many people are doing it, then it must be that way and supposed to be that way.

Everything that has a label "standard" on it and I am like... who said it is a standard? Some douchebag playing as an authority like a Church leader, King, President (of a country/company), banker...

Reading enough historical books and articles on science and art made me believe that there is no such thing as an establishment in those fields.

Music is sounds shaped as tones and labelled as notes, then intervals, chords... phrases
Language is sounds, shaped as vowels and consonants and labelled as letters, then syllables, words... sentences.

And if someone is telling me that the standard is: A, B, C, D, E, F, G but the rest of the 5 notes are nameless
I see such an establishment as narrow minded and even ignorant.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M33cRNx3ohI
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Old 08-31-2019, 10:16 AM   #356
davetbass
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Everything is I IV V. There you go: a quick and light music theory system.

As for notation, you don't need it, in the words of many a band leader "follow me, you'll get it"
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Old 08-31-2019, 10:28 AM   #357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davetbass View Post
Everything is I IV V.
If you are much into some simplified style or rock-blues - yes. (although even in those styles they use some unexpected chords)
Otherwise - no, it is not everything... just a n exact, special case progression.

Music (written form, nomenclature) needs to evolve. It got stuck at the end of the XVI-th century.

Do not believe anything you never experienced or at least analysed. Ever.
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Old 08-31-2019, 10:49 AM   #358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davetbass View Post
Everything is I IV V. There you go: a quick and light music theory system.

As for notation, you don't need it, in the words of many a band leader "follow me, you'll get it"
that's a dumb system. if there are only three symbols "I", "IV", "V" then why are you using roman numerals, one of which takes two characters, and two of the three if paired include the same character.

your quick & light music theory system is absolutely awful. Q. E. D.


Quote:
Originally Posted by davetbass View Post
As for notation, you don't need it, in the words of many a band leader "follow me, you'll get it"

yet you typed a message with notation, to communicate the idea. so obviously, notation is needed. seriously, are musicians really this dumb, to make such excuses or nonsense replies? Yes. Which is almost more astounding than the flawed music system itself.
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Old 08-31-2019, 03:52 PM   #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superblonde.org View Post
that's a dumb system. if there are only three symbols "I", "IV", "V" then why are you using roman numerals, one of which takes two characters, and two of the three if paired include the same character.

your quick & light music theory system is absolutely awful. Q. E. D.





yet you typed a message with notation, to communicate the idea. so obviously, notation is needed. seriously, are musicians really this dumb, to make such excuses or nonsense replies? Yes. Which is almost more astounding than the flawed music system itself.
Sorry, I was being a bit of a wise guy!, but I did want to make a serious point: lots of music is created and communicated with no more formal structure than that.
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Old 08-31-2019, 03:57 PM   #360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adXok View Post
If you are much into some simplified style or rock-blues - yes. (although even in those styles they use some unexpected chords)
Otherwise - no, it is not everything... just a n exact, special case progression.

Music (written form, nomenclature) needs to evolve. It got stuck at the end of the XVI-th century.

Do not believe anything you never experienced or at least analysed. Ever.
Yeah, that's where I was exposed to those ideas, learning bass onstage in blues?R&B jams. and I do agree with you that while that can get you through a tune, having to use IV instead of ii, obviously gives the melody a very different color, In that environment, playing by ear and knowing the tunes quirks is the only way to get things done
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