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Old 10-28-2022, 03:19 AM   #1
Phazma
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Default Route MIDI from folder to children (no feedback!)



Wanted workflow:

1) Create several tracks with different VST instruments (+ subsequent FX chains)
2) Mix and process each track to taste
3) Create a folder which contains all these tracks and collapse it
4) Select folder track and play MIDI keyboard (or put MIDI items onto folder track) -> MIDI is sent to all VST instruments on collapsed child tracks
5) Further shape the layered sound of the stacked VST instruments WHILE PLAYING MIDI KEYBOARD by placing bus FX onto the folder track (without switching back and forth between bus and MIDI track)
6) Manage entire layered instrument with just 1 track and mix it into song as a whole

One such folder could do the work of 3 tracks:
- MIDI send track
- Bus track
- Organizational track

Of course it may be problematic if midi is sent back from the child to the parent (creating feedback) so I imagine this being implemented with a "midi stream direction switch" (maybe as checkbox on folder track routing window) which switches the midi stream to go down from parent to children and disables the MIDI stream back up from children to folder so there would be NO MIDI FEEDBACK.

Audio routing of course should not in any way be altered by this and always remain from children to parent.

This would be a feature useful to everybody who likes to stack VST instruments and controll them without faffing with too many tracks.

Last edited by Phazma; 04-19-2023 at 12:43 AM. Reason: Streamline description
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Old 10-28-2022, 11:08 PM   #2
mschnell
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AFAIU, you can route Midi from any track to any other (using the Routing button).

-Michael
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Old 10-28-2022, 11:33 PM   #3
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I had already tried but it doesn’t work.
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Old 10-29-2022, 03:51 AM   #4
mschnell
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Testing, I found that midi is routed to the parent track even without manually configuring.
But vice versa is blocked.
Of course this is understood, as it would generate a loop. OTOH, if "master send" is off (or if there would be configurable filters), it might be viable.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 10-30-2022 at 03:20 PM.
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Old 10-30-2022, 04:40 AM   #5
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Yeah, I'd use this too.
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Old 01-29-2023, 08:35 AM   #6
Phazma
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As a workaround for this I have been trying to layer instruments on a single track. However, as can be read in this thread, Reaper performs much better when layered VSTi instruments are spread across tracks instead of layered on one track.

It is really tedious to select a MIDI sending track to play your instrument, then select a Bus track to tweak or toggle FX, then go back to the MIDI track to play and hear what happened, then back to the Bus to make adjustments and so forth..

It would be so much more convenient (and less messy in the arrangement window) to just hide a bunch of instruments on separate tracks in a collapsed folder, select that folder track and play/process the whole layered stack of VSTis as if it was just one instrument on one track. And if adjustments to individual instruments are needed, the folder can easily be opened, the selected track in question adjusted and the folder closed again.

Anyone else wishing for such elegant workflow with stacked VSTis? We just need that MIDI to go from folder down to children..
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Old 03-08-2023, 08:21 AM   #7
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Updated FR with picture.
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Old 03-08-2023, 09:10 AM   #8
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Big +1 from me. I tried all sorts of stuff to try and make this work when I first installed reaper.

Please consider this devs. It's one of those features that from a user perspective makes perfect sense. It would give the folder feature a completely new dimension for anyone working with MIDI instruments.
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Old 03-08-2023, 09:18 AM   #9
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+1

Working with instrument multiouts would be sooooooo much easier
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Old 03-08-2023, 09:19 AM   #10
deeb
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This would be useful to have, but I have the feeling that if the container works smoothly i will do this (layering) in the same track.
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Old 03-08-2023, 09:53 AM   #11
rncwalker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
AFAIU, you can route Midi from any track to any other (using the Routing button).

-Michael
For tracks YES!

If it's a Folder track with MIDI on it sending to a child track, then NO!

I just tried it.


EDIT: Just saw all of the other post after my post.

Robert
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Old 03-08-2023, 10:00 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deeb View Post
This would be useful to have, but I have the feeling that if the container works smoothly i will do this (layering) in the same track.
Layering is just one thing this would be useful for. I'd mostly use it for drums where you usually want the combined MIDI on one track but different faders for mixing. E.g. MIDI item on folder track, RS5K instances on child tracks.

Depending on how FX container evolves it might turn out great for layering sounds, but it won't give you access to track faders/panning for the mixing stage.
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Old 03-08-2023, 10:32 AM   #13
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Nice too see this FR finally gain some traction after I posted the image. I was afraid to be a lone wolf in the quest for this.

Personally I would use FX containers more with audio to do some parallel chains and crazy processing on a single sound but I believe for triggering VST instruments I prefer to have direct access via arrange window, and for example change up the Midi of one layer more easily.

Also, this would utilize the CPU multicore more efficiently than having all on a single track.

And it would also be less CPU intense to record-arm just a folder track rather than 5 layer tracks.
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Old 03-08-2023, 11:20 AM   #14
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I like the idea very much, but disabling the default child-to-parent MIDI routing would break backward compatibility. It seems to me, it's either that or allow feedback in your project when you use parent-to-child MIDI.

This could stop this request (which I support anyway) in its tracks.
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Old 03-08-2023, 12:04 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juan_r View Post
I like the idea very much, but disabling the default child-to-parent MIDI routing would break backward compatibility. It seems to me, it's either that or allow feedback in your project when you use parent-to-child MIDI.

This could stop this request (which I support anyway) in its tracks.
I think it could be a per-project (or even per-track) setting, which wouldn’t break any older projects. Of course by default the existing behavior should be maintained.

Allowing feedback would be also a solution but I don’t know the risks of MIDI feedback.. a solution that avoids feedback and allows MIDI only in one or the other direction is probably better.
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Old 03-18-2023, 03:18 AM   #16
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Big +1 for this kind of setting.

I think it would have to be per-track, named something like "Allow sending MIDI to children (disables receiving MIDI from them)".

Routing window would probably be the best place for this setting - a checkbox, maybe? - and the logic for showing it would be something like "if track is a folder, then show this checkbox; else hide/disable it".

The default state of this setting would of course be "off", to maintain current behavior for compatibility with older projects.
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Old 03-18-2023, 07:34 AM   #17
Phazma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n997 View Post
Big +1 for this kind of setting.

I think it would have to be per-track, named something like "Allow sending MIDI to children (disables receiving MIDI from them)".

Routing window would probably be the best place for this setting - a checkbox, maybe? - and the logic for showing it would be something like "if track is a folder, then show this checkbox; else hide/disable it".

The default state of this setting would of course be "off", to maintain current behavior for compatibility with older projects.
Very reasonable implementation idea. Like it.

Maybe it would make sense to have some tcp icon that indicates this state too (maybe
additional images of the routing button for this state).
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Old 03-18-2023, 05:10 PM   #18
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Nice idea!
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Old 03-20-2023, 07:16 AM   #19
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that would be great! +1
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Old 04-18-2023, 10:06 AM   #20
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I think this is related: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=263152
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Old 04-19-2023, 12:44 AM   #21
Phazma
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Edited post to simplify description of the request. This feature would be a big helper and I hope the devs find a way to implement it.
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Old 09-16-2023, 01:59 AM   #22
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Option for downstream instead of upstream MIDI please
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Old 09-16-2023, 03:43 AM   #23
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+1

If decoupling audio and MIDI sends (for feedback prevention purposes) is feasible, it would be great. I'd pick this routing arrangement as my own default.

Audio "UP" (child to parent) and MIDI "DOWN" (parent to child) makes sense, as it makes managing/pre-mixing folders more intuitive. This would also give us the "render track by parent" workflow, where you can have each child render its own stem.

Useful for drum folders, or any other instrumental section - e.g., strings in 4 parts, or anything else.

EDIT - I can't find the relevant thread, but here's a summary of what I mean.
I have a folder track with a VSTi inserted. The MIDI data for each part is in each child. I'd like to render/freeze each child track so that the resulting audio stays there on the child track. Maybe this can be obtained without restructuring the whole MIDI/audio send internal mechanism?
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Last edited by juan_r; 09-16-2023 at 11:23 AM. Reason: Mention of "Render via parent track", fixed a mistake
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