good tuner software (VST or standalone)/synth that can be tuned to A=443

[axeman]

Greetings,

I'll be recording a short Stick arrangement for a good friend who happens to be a bassoonist that is based in Germany. Apparently, his instrument requires that I tune to A=443 in order to make this recording compatible. All I have is a cheap Korg guitar tuner and an Intellitouch chromatic tuner that doesn't really seem to work very well with the Stick for whatever reason.

As such, I'm wondering if there are any good chromatic tuner applications (VST or standalone) that might help in my accurately tuning the Stick to A=443 for the recording. I'm also hoping to find a nice, simple synth plug-in that can be tuned to A=443 with some direct visual/input guidance (as opposed to a tuning knob that doesn't really document the reference pitch of its detuning).

Any suggestions? Would definitely appreciate the help.

Thanks and take care,


Alan

[schwa]

Does this not do it for you?

[Against_Demons]

Yes. Reatune works quite well. Even on mic'ed strings (acoustic or otherwise).

[gregh]

http://www.petersontuners.com/index....gory=74&sub=26

seems to be the standard, but I have no idea whether it is more accurate or easier to use than reatune

[jens]

Originally Posted by schwa

Does this not do it for you?

it doesn't for me - probably I'm just too stupid but it's somehow too 'jerky'/'jumpy' for me...


This is what I use instead:

http://tuneit.free.fr/


The only tuner-plugin I ever came across which really does it for me...

[scottdru]

Yeah, a lot of tuners (especially software tuners) can be pretty squirrelly to work with, as some of them seem to have a difficult time deciding between the fundamental and one or more of the harmonics of the note you are playing. This tends to be especially problematic with low bass notes.

I mostly use a Korg rack tuner or a Boss tuner pedal these days, but one of the best (free/shareware) software tuners I've used over the years has been the AP Tuner.

http://www.aptuner.com/cgi-bin/aptuner/apmain.html

I haven't used it in a while (especially since I got the hardware tuners), but I've typically found the AP Tuner quick, accurate, flexible and stable.

[axeman]

Greetings,

Thanks a lot for all the helpful input here.

Originally Posted by schwa

Does this not do it for you?

Like Jens, my only experience with ReaTune (while trying to tune the Stick) was that the results were too jumpy to be usable. Based on your recommendation, however, I'll give it another shot before trying any of the other solutions.

Hopefully, between revisiting ReaTune or downloading Tune It! and AP Tuner, something will do the trick. Will keep you guys posted.

Take care and thanks again,


Alan

[jakerock]

How about this:
"C-Tuner" (Click the "i" button and set to Accuracy=Super, and can set "A" to 443 if necessary.)

http://www.samplerchan.com/

[Cyranosemuse]

This is my favorite shareware software tuner.
It is very programmable and has a strobe function.

http://www.jhc-software.com/downloads.htm

The developer is now working with Peterson and created this:

http://www.strobosoft.com/index.cfm?refer=JHC

[Jack Winter]

Originally Posted by axeman

Like Jens, my only experience with ReaTune (while trying to tune the Stick) was that the results were too jumpy to be usable.

Try incresing the window size especially for bass notes.

[Zargon the Destroyer]

Originally Posted by Cyranosemuse

This is my favorite shareware software tuner.
It is very programmable and has a strobe function.

http://www.jhc-software.com/downloads.htm

The developer is now working with Peterson and created this:

http://www.strobosoft.com/index.cfm?refer=JHC

Agreed - this is what I use too. It's performance seems way, way better than any other software tuner I've used.

[LOSER]

Originally Posted by Jack Winter

Try incresing the window size especially for bass notes.

Yeah should fix it ... also set overlap to 1x.

[jens]

Originally Posted by Jack Winter

Try incresing the window size especially for bass notes.

Originally Posted by LOSER

Yeah should fix it ... also set overlap to 1x.

it's great that Reaper comes with a lot of nice and useful plugins - and it's even better that it also hosts VST/DX for those cases when these included plugins don't suffice, so we don't have to go to great lenghts to make them try to work for us - the cool thing about Tune It is that it works out of the box with whatever you throw at it - also it has a very nice gui (unlike Reatune imo) which ain't too bad a thing either - and it's free.

[maa]

I've been using Gtune from Graham Yeadons great Gvst set - works better than most and is small.


Cheers

maa

[axeman]

Hi again,

Another big thank-you to everyone for all the additional input. Looking forward to putting these solutions to the test. (As long as something gets me locked on A=443 with good accuracy, I don't mind taking up the slack manually. Just don't want to kill myself to get a great Stick performance and then find that it's not in tune with my friend's bassoon.)

One other thing: Any good, basic analog synth VST that has a hook for calibrating the tuning to A=443 Hz as well? I need to play along to a MIDI performance of the bassoon part and it would be nice to be in tune (and also use that as a cross-reference to ensure that the tuner's got the reference pitch OK).

Cheers,


Alan

[jens]

Originally Posted by axeman

One other thing: Any good, basic analog synth VST that has a hook for calibrating the tuning to A=443 Hz as well? I need to play along to a MIDI performance of the bassoon part and it would be nice to be in tune (and also use that as a cross-reference to ensure that the tuner's got the reference pitch OK).

most of them - simply detune (up) by ~12cent

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaver...8779/chc1.html

[bullshark]

Originally Posted by jens

and it's free.

It's not, it's donationware.

[bullshark]

BTW...443 Hz? As in 0.7% of standard tuning? Who the heck can hear that? Are you sure it's not 430 Hz?

[jens]

Originally Posted by bullshark

It's not, it's donationware.

you're right - I just checked - the version I use is freeware, it has changed since then though - didn't know this before...

[jens]

Originally Posted by bullshark

BTW...443 Hz? As in 0.7% of standard tuning? Who the heck can hear that? Are you sure it's not 430 Hz?

12cent shouldn't be too hard to spot...

[bullshark]

Ok, but please don't tell anybody because my Fender does not intonate that precisely...and when you put me at the helm it's even worst

[axeman]

Hi again,

Thanks for the additional guidance on synth tuning. (Still wish I could find one that just let me enter the tuning reference as A=443 Hz, but will experiment accordingly.)

Originally Posted by bullshark

BTW...443 Hz? As in 0.7% of standard tuning? Who the heck can hear that? Are you sure it's not 430 Hz?

Quite sure, actually. My friend is a professional bassoonist and plays in German orchestras for a living. Apparently, many of them (including the Berlin Philharmonic) tune to A=443 Hz. Actually just found an interesting paper with more info on the subject, for anyone who might be interested:

http://ismir2006.ismir.net/PAPERS/ISMIR06115_Paper.pdf

Am also surprised to see that the Chicago Symphony Orchestra and New York Philharmonic tune to A=442 Hz as well. (Odd, isn't it?)

My friend informed me that, if I stuck with A=440 Hz, he'd have to buy new a new reed and bocals to align his instrument accordingly.

Cheers,


Alan

[jens]

Originally Posted by axeman

a new reed and bocals

two reeds - basoons are double-reed instruments - however they're just a few € each - and while I'm not sure what the mouthpiece costs, he perhaps ought consider then to keep replacements to be used for 440hz

(but tbh I'm wondering anyway what the reeds have got to do with the tuning... :-/)

[Ollie]

Originally Posted by axeman

One other thing: Any good, basic analog synth VST that has a hook for calibrating the tuning to A=443 Hz as well?.

Most VSTis don't have a global tuning knob anymore, which can be quite a PITA sometimes. The only analogue synths I know of on the quick are Pro-52/53 and Albino. All freebies I know don't have such a thing. So you have to tune each patch with the oscillator controls.

[bullshark]

Originally Posted by axeman

Am also surprised to see that the Chicago Symphony Orchestra and New York Philharmonic tune to A=442 Hz as well. (Odd, isn't it?)

Yes, and I'm wondering why since it seems to me to be too small a deviation from concert pitch to be significant. Like, we're doing this song where the singer had trouble with the higher notes, so we detuned our guitars to 430 and it was enough for him to get through the song without having to do a whole half step (which, on fretted instrument, especially on bass, can create all sort of setup and intonation issues). But 2Hz?

[axeman]

Originally Posted by jens

two reeds - basoons are double-reed instruments - however they're just a few € each - and while I'm not sure what the mouthpiece costs, he perhaps ought consider then to keep replacements to be used for 440hz

(but tbh I'm wondering anyway what the reeds have got to do with the tuning... :-/)

Hey Jens,

I suppose I should have said "pair/set of reeds" instead. (Do they sell these in matched pairs?) Not sure exactly of the engineering behind reeds being "toned" to a reference frequency, but the following website sells them in both A=440 and A=443:

http://www.neilsreed.com/

Note the conspicuous absence of A=442, though. I suppose that I should be happy that the tuning of most of my instruments can be accomplished with tuning machines, pegs, or knobs.

Originally Posted by Steindork

Most VSTis don't have a global tuning knob anymore, which can be quite a PITA sometimes. The only analogue synths I know of on the quick are Pro-52/53 and Albino. All freebies I know don't have such a thing. So you have to tune each patch with the oscillator controls.

That's what I feared. Maybe I'll send a note over to my friend and see how he does it. (He does a lot of work with synths and MIDI wind controllers.)

Take care and thanks again for your help,


Alan

[fergal]

Originally Posted by axeman

Hey Jens,

I suppose I should have said "pair/set of reeds" instead. (Do they sell these in matched pairs?) Not sure exactly of the engineering behind reeds being "toned" to a reference frequency, but the following website sells them in both A=440 and A=443:

http://www.neilsreed.com/

Note the conspicuous absence of A=442, though. I suppose that I should be happy that the tuning of most of my instruments can be accomplished with tuning machines, pegs, or knobs.



That's what I feared. Maybe I'll send a note over to my friend and see how he does it. (He does a lot of work with synths and MIDI wind controllers.)

Take care and thanks again for your help,


Alan

Hey there,

Just saw your post, and decided to register here because figured that there might be a simple solution. Leave all your VSTis at concert pitch, and throw a pitch shifter over all your synth channels, to pitch the sound up 12 cents.

You'll never hear any artefacts with a rise of just 12% of a semitone.

-Fergal

[axeman]

Originally Posted by fergal

Hey there,

Just saw your post, and decided to register here because figured that there might be a simple solution. Leave all your VSTis at concert pitch, and throw a pitch shifter over all your synth channels, to pitch the sound up 12 cents.

You'll never hear any artefacts with a rise of just 12% of a semitone.

-Fergal

Hi Fergal,

Thanks very much (especially for registering just to post your advice). I suppose there must be a fairly easy way to add a pitch shifter after the VSTi synth to make this work. I don't even need to record the results, by the way, as the synth is just playing the bassoon part while I record the Stick anyway.

Take care and thanks again,


Alan

[jens]

Originally Posted by axeman

That's what I feared.

except that it isn't true - most of my go-to freeware/donationware synths have global detune:

Asynth, Atlantis, Oatmeal, Lazysnake, MDA EPiano, NubiLe,etc.

[jens]

Originally Posted by axeman

I suppose I should have said "pair/set of reeds" instead. (Do they sell these in matched pairs?)

no, it seems you were right, and I was wrong:



apparently it's actually one piece of wood/reed in the beginning.

[suprosuperman]

alot of times the bouncing around or jerky-ness of a tuner can be attributed to the tuner being alot more sensitive than we think they really are... the vibrations of the string your trying to tune will induce vibrations in the other strings on the instrument and alot of tuners will actually hear those tiny induced vibrations on the other strings.

simply put the tuner gets confused and doesnt know which note your trying to tune, the one you plucked or the other ones beside it that your sting induced vibration onto. So the tuner starts to bounce(jerky movement) back and forth between the string your trying to tune and the notes or induced harmonics on the other strings.

if you mute the strings your not tuning and only allow the string you are tuning to vibrate, then alot of the time that will eliminate the jerky-ness and inaccuracy of the reading.
A lot of those old little cheap plastic tuners were actually pretty sensitive. People used to think they were no good cause the needle would always bounce erratically, but as soon as you would mute the strings your not tuning, the needle would become dead steady and very accurate.

sorry to barge into the conversation, just thought id mention this little quirk thats inherit in some sensitive tuners just in case some of you werent aware of it....it may help you verify if the source of any tuning problems are caused by induced vibration on the surrounding strings or just plain old software latency issues, which does seem to be a problem with many software tuners that ive tried aswell....or maybe its just the speed of my cheezy PC..lol.

cheers.

[maa]

Originally Posted by axeman

(Still wish I could find one that just let me enter the tuning reference as A=443 Hz, but will experiment accordingly.)

Well I posted you one above.......

[axeman]

Greetings,

Based on all the helpful input I received here, I decided to tune my Stick, along with the corresponding VSTi accompaniment, to A=443. Deciding to start with what I already had, I decided to go with Schwa's recommendation of ReaTune, but tweaked as per recommendations from Jack and LOSER. That got me close enough to be able to make the final adjustments by ear, which I'd probably have wanted to do anyway.

Then, based on Fergal's feedback, I added a 12-cent pitch shift after the Steinberg Neon VSTi I've been using to "hear" how the bassoon will fit with my performance--and everything worked out just fine.

Ended up making a few other tweaks to facilitate the actual recording, saved it as a new file, and I look very forward to having a go at getting this tracked as soon as time permits.

Thanks again for all the help!

Cheers,


Alan

[axeman]

Originally Posted by maa

Well I posted you one above.......

Was actually referring to an analog synth VSTi (to tune the synthesized bassoon part I'll be playing along with), but definitely appreciate the tip.

Cheers,


Alan

[charles.monteiro]

Originally Posted by axeman

Hi again,

Thanks for the additional guidance on synth tuning. (Still wish I could find one that just let me enter the tuning reference as A=443 Hz, but will experiment accordingly.)



Quite sure, actually. My friend is a professional bassoonist and plays in German orchestras for a living. Apparently, many of them (including the Berlin Philharmonic) tune to A=443 Hz. Actually just found an interesting paper with more info on the subject, for anyone who might be interested:

http://ismir2006.ismir.net/PAPERS/ISMIR06115_Paper.pdf

Am also surprised to see that the Chicago Symphony Orchestra and New York Philharmonic tune to A=442 Hz as well. (Odd, isn't it?)

My friend informed me that, if I stuck with A=440 Hz, he'd have to buy new a new reed and bocals to align his instrument accordingly.

Cheers,


Alan

one of my favorite artists seems to tune sharp of 440. For a while I have been wondering if that is the case, or if its some some sort of artifact of the production process or perhaps even done on purpose in post production.

Interesting to know what the motivation is.