Old 04-24-2007, 03:36 AM   #1
metasymbol
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Default Reaper with Linux / WineAsio

Hello community,

One more time I want to talk about Reaper with Linux/Wine. There is a project named WineAsio from Ralf Beck, making it possible to run Reaper as JACK client with low latency inside Linux. The developer of this is JackLab releated, so there is a first RPM available for openSUSE 10.2/JAD 1.0 alpha. Also the main WINE RPM is patched and updated, for having working alsa midi IO.

I've tested it last weekend an I'm really impressed. Reaper runs nearly like on Windows, most VST plugins working, no crashes. but I havn't tested all features now. Here is a thread about this item. http://forum.jacklab.net/viewtopic.php?t=417

A screenshot for those don't believe:
http://people.jacklab.net/metasymbol/pixel/april.jpg

I think, Reaper now can fill the space between eXT2 and Ardour as the first "all in one VST studio" solution for Linux. Great work, Justin.

regards,
Michael

Last edited by metasymbol; 04-28-2007 at 02:41 AM.
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Old 04-24-2007, 03:43 AM   #2
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this is great. jorgen from energyXT will be very displeased to hear that maybe all his efforts to port energyxt to linux was a waste of time.
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Old 04-24-2007, 03:46 AM   #3
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fuck yeah, hail, cheers and fucking nice!
i can`t wait pclinuxos webpage to wake up back online, they have some problems now, but then i will request this package official, and will tell you how it`s working with pclos!
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Old 04-24-2007, 03:52 AM   #4
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this is great. jorgen from energyXT will be very displeased to hear that maybe all his efforts to port energyxt to linux was a waste of time.
hehe, thats the way of life. Ralf, the dev of wineasio also made the full featured jackdriver (and midiout plugin) for eXT2 Linux.

http://people.jacklab.net/metasymbol/software/

And Reaper was not his main goal for starting the wineasio, he wanted to work with the NordModular G2 demo
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Old 04-24-2007, 03:58 AM   #5
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cheers for the goodjob too, mr.Metasymbol, now i realized, that you are the jacklab developer. Keep on!
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Old 04-24-2007, 04:06 AM   #6
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cheers for the goodjob too, mr.Metasymbol, now i realized, that you are the jacklab developer. Keep on!
Not exactly "the" developer, more the project leader and founder - and I'm a part of the JAD core team, as a musician. But others are better coder then me, so my main task is to evangelize the world with the good message.

JackLab is a community project bringing together devs, users and distributors for making a better support for productive music on Linux. Unlike other Linux projects, VST integration is an important point for us.

Last edited by metasymbol; 04-24-2007 at 04:18 AM.
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Old 04-24-2007, 04:56 AM   #7
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Very interesting, had not heard from WineAsio before. Definitely something I want to look into. I hope to have a Linux DAW in the (near) future.

Thanks for the info!
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Old 04-24-2007, 05:01 AM   #8
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Hi Metasymbol,
good to see you here. I've tried several times to register on the jacklab forum, unsuccessfully. Edogawa told me on jacklab@freenode that you approve all requests individually.
I'm also having many installation problems with jacklab such that yast shuffles around my IDE device numbers/names (calling them i.e. hde/hdf instead of hda/hdb on a mobo with PATA connectors and thus creating conflicts with GRUB), GRUB not installing correctly or maybe it installs, but doesn't give the right parameters/path's. Which leads to a message that "GRUB has encountered a problem...Retry to install?" or similar messages.***
This is definitely NOT LINUX Newbie friendly.
It would be cool if these problems could get ironed out, as your distro seems rather nice and VERY complete otherwise.
Another shock I had when I realised that there's no Envy24control in your distro. I mean come on, it's one of the most widespread converters out there and using kmix or whatever there is instead is a real PITA.

I'd be really interested in running Reaper under Linux, as I can't make it run smoothly under WinXP Pro. Crackles all over the place etc., while in Linux I NEVER EVER had ANY crackles with ANY audio app, even when really maxing out CPU/Memory.

For now I'm running 64-Studio, which is a really nice distro, not as full featured as jacklab yet, but they test all apps quite thoroughly before adding them to the repo. One of the main forces behind 64-Studio is "Free Ekanayaka", the man behind the now defunct "Agnula DeMuDi".
But the main point is, 64-Studio simply works out of the box. No heavy configuration/optimisation needed, no need to separately download/install a rt-kernel etc.
Your distro has the native VST-support on the +side however, which really is a biggie for those willing to try a change (incl. myself).

Anyway, I'd really like to further try/test your distro, but I'm a linux newbie myself, so I'm having some major difficulties running jacklab. And it's not an option for me to boot from DVD each time, going through the "install init" procedure each time to "Other Options...Start installed system".
Maybe you could sort my forum registration issues so that I could take part on the forum, just give me a PM.
That would be cool.

Best regards

Raphael


*** I never manged to install ANY WORKING SuSE distribution on my PC's. I've tried with 9.0, 9.1, 9.2, 10.0, 10.1, 10.2, and now Jacklab alpha2 (10.2). Sometimes I could install the distro but couldn't boot then into the system, or the installer decided to not even install the system on my PC. Maybe I'm not worth a SuSE install?
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Old 04-24-2007, 05:07 AM   #9
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I do development for a living and so I very much appreciate Linux and all the open source tools there are such as Postgres and so forth. Now, as a musician on the other hand I want a DAW that runs as fast as it can and has as minimal compatibility issues with the hardware that I use. I am quite willing to have a totally dedicated box for music and I'm willing to spend what I need to spend which includes spending money on buying the right OS. If Reaper and all of the VST plugins I use and all the hardware drivers that I need ran on something like BeOS which supposedly leaves all other personal workstation OSes in the dust, I would be on BeOS.

So I'm wondering what's the compelling reason for Reaper to support Linux? What's the compelling reason for a user to contemplate Linux besides possibly saving some money on buying Windows?

The only possible reason I'm curious about Linux would be the development of a distro that was specifically tuned to audio/video applications. One which would provide significant performance advantages over Windows but that would have to entail compatibility to industry standards such as VST and ASIO. Obviously, I don't see how running on top of WINE will ever get the performance necessary to become that.
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Old 04-24-2007, 05:38 AM   #10
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We should start a wiki about Reaper+Linux (system installation, hardware and plugin compatibility list etc)...
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Old 04-24-2007, 05:39 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metasymbol View Post
Not exactly "the" developer, more the project leader and founder
pard me for misunderstanding. anyway, cheers!
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Old 04-24-2007, 05:41 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by charles.monteiro View Post
So I'm wondering what's the compelling reason for Reaper to support Linux? What's the compelling reason for a user to contemplate Linux besides possibly saving some money on buying Windows?
i will give you one: windows is made by microsoft. are you proud, using something made by MS? I am not! The only thing, that keeps MSWindos on my PC, is the reaper. And this is dependence, i don`t want to be dependent.
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Old 04-24-2007, 06:19 AM   #13
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i will give you one: windows is made by microsoft. are you proud, using something made by MS? I am not! The only thing, that keeps MSWindos on my PC, is the reaper. And this is dependence, i don`t want to be dependent.
Most people couldn't give a fluck. They use the tools to realise their ideas, and those tools are nothing more.
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Old 04-24-2007, 06:40 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by funkster1 View Post
Hi Metasymbol,
good to see you here. I've tried several times to register on the jacklab forum, unsuccessfully. Edogawa told me on jacklab@freenode that you approve all requests individually.
I have already activated your account a few weeks before - funkster1... Log in and it will work hopefully
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I'm also having many installation problems with jacklab such that yast shuffles around my IDE device numbers/names
Please remember that JAD (the name for the distro of the jacklab community) is in alpha stage and that we have only a limited amount of test pc's. I never use something like PATA or SATA so I have no experiences with it. It sounds like a big bug when every SUSE of the last 3 years didn't work on your system but studio64/debian do.

But on the other hand I have the feeling, that there is something totally wrong with your hardware, because for me Reaper works on all my pc's (3 workstations, a laptop) even on Windows flawless.

And at the end: JAD will maybe have a better VST support , but from the base every linux audio app is the same like on every other distro. I like SUSE because it works on all computers I use, but if not, I would use another distro. Eg WineAsio can be compiled also for debian.
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Old 04-24-2007, 06:44 AM   #15
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This looks really promising, as a stop-gap at least until there's a native Reaper Linux version

I'm a Linux newb, just running Ubuntu Feisty and getting up to speed with it. Can I run WineAsio on there, or do I need a special distro?
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Old 04-24-2007, 06:48 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by sebas777 View Post
We should start a wiki about Reaper+Linux (system installation, hardware and plugin compatibility list etc)...
Hehe... wiki.jacklab.net already do this job - with the next alpha of JAD it will be easy to setup Reaper because we integrate the updated wine and wineasio - just a "winecfg" for configuring the alsa midi and then "wine [/path to]reaperXXXXinstall.exe"
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Old 04-24-2007, 06:51 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by lemmy View Post
This looks really promising, as a stop-gap at least until there's a native Reaper Linux version

I'm a Linux newb, just running Ubuntu Feisty and getting up to speed with it. Can I run WineAsio on there, or do I need a special distro?
No, you only have to patch the latest wine (for alsa raw midi compatibility), compile it, then compile wineasio and make install... or wait until your ubuntu package maintainer make ready to install deb packs.
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Old 04-24-2007, 07:25 AM   #18
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Default using a novell product to escape microsofts grasp?

Novell and Microsoft.
http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/openletter.html
http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/56066.html

other choices.
64STUDIO
http://64studio.com/
http://linuxaudio.org/files/press/lud55-Audio_Libre.pdf

CCRMA
http://ccrma.stanford.edu/planetccrma/software/
http://ccrma.stanford.edu/
http://corporate.stanford.edu/resear...ams/ccrma.html

dyne:bolic
http://www.dynebolic.org/
dyne:II core runs efficiently on solid state devices, loading its system from a compact-flash or similar controller.

Musix
http://www.musix.org.ar/en/index.html


JackLab Audio Distribution (JAD)
http://www.jacklab.org/
http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1000208



http://linuxrockstar.blogspot.com/

($ Studio To Go live CD $)
http://www.ferventsoftware.com/

coming soon
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio

unrelated stumbled on
http://www.wirespring.com/Products/F..._OS/index.html
FireCast OS can be used to power a variety of kiosk and digital signage applications, such as touchscreen product catalogs, public Internet access points, and electronic billboards.



http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
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Old 04-24-2007, 07:39 AM   #19
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Metasymbol,
This is great news, and I downloaded the iso file - but where can I find the hash number? I'd kinda like to know if the file is good before I get started. I ran the planet ccrma kernal on fc2 for a long time and the vst's were always the holdback.

peace,
rann
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Old 04-24-2007, 08:03 AM   #20
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Novell and Microsoft.
FUD.

JackLab is a free project, independent and open. Just like Novell (SLED, SLES) we are using the openSUSE distro (which is a traditional Linux distro in Germany also before Novell sponsoring this ) to create a free and open product. Eg., we have to remove all Novell brands, because using them is a violation against copyrights, in the next beta release of JAD.

In a way you can see it from this side: -we release SUSE from the claw of Novell - but on the other side - Novell opened up commercial SUSE to openSUSE and gives us a great piece of the cake for free.

Also WineAsio from Ralf Sill (IRC nickname "Drumfix") is a free, independent and open project and has no relation to Novell.

PS, but a good collection of links

Last edited by metasymbol; 04-24-2007 at 08:25 AM.
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Old 04-24-2007, 08:10 AM   #21
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i will give you one: windows is made by microsoft. are you proud, using something made by MS? I am not! The only thing, that keeps MSWindos on my PC, is the reaper. And this is dependence, i don`t want to be dependent.
What is the problem running a product owned/produced/sold by one of the world's greatest philanthropists? Especially, if it gets the job done?

Is it possible to make Linux a little more complex? I don't think that it is enough of a user-deterrent with all the distros, and Lingos and that lass Suzy; ubantu, kubantu; xubantu.

Pardon my frustration, and facetiousness, I tried... I couldn't even get flashplayer to install on Kubantu. Ubantu's none beta releases wouldn't even install...

I guess its Billysoft for me.
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Old 04-24-2007, 08:15 AM   #22
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Metasymbol,
This is great news, and I downloaded the iso file - but where can I find the hash number? I'd kinda like to know if the file is good before I get started. I ran the planet ccrma kernal on fc2 for a long time and the vst's were always the holdback.

peace,
rann
WineAsio isn't present on the alpha2, but it will be on the alpha3, coming this week. Don't expect too much, it is a developer release alpha.

Hash number? U mean md5sum? It is 053ba37deafc9c5ea01d15a3cc878c5f

ftp://ftp4.gwdg.de/pub/linux/misc/jacklab/JAD/MD5SUM
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Old 04-24-2007, 08:20 AM   #23
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Thanks Meta!
I'm looking forward to running linuxsampler again. I'll definately keep an eye out for the alpha 3 too. It'll give me time to set up a dual boot system again.

Thanks for all your efforts!
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Old 04-24-2007, 09:06 AM   #24
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Metasymbol can you approve my registration in the forum when you get a chance please?

Thank you very much! THis is looking good
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Old 04-24-2007, 09:17 AM   #25
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Metasymbol can you approve my registration in the forum when you get a chance please?
OK, I've activated your account - anyone else?

See http://forum.jacklab.net/viewtopic.php?t=25
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Old 04-24-2007, 09:29 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metasymbol
I have already activated your account a few weeks before - funkster1... Log in and it will work hopefully
Thank you Sir, I didn't receive any further notice of this, so I could not know.


Quote:
Originally Posted by metasymbol
It sounds like a big bug when every SUSE of the last 3 years didn't work on your system but studio64/debian do.
Well, this I don't know, I'm quite comfortable with Windows (XP) but not at all with Linux, again less with SuSE. I had tried other distris before (DeMuDi, Knoppix, Dynebolic, Musix, (K)Ubuntu, FC5 with the planet CCRMA addons) which all worked well, out of the box (no matter if installed or used as live CD/DVD). Now I had to change my graphics adapter 3 month ago or so and my mobo 2 weeks ago. Before that I had a Gigabyte board which was quite fast, stable and really reliable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by metasymbol
But on the other hand I have the feeling, that there is something totally wrong with your hardware, because for me Reaper works on all my pc's (3 workstations, a laptop) even on Windows flawless.
Just to let you know, I'm not the only one having problems with Reaper. But I think this is mainly in combination with VSTi's. I'm using quite some sample based instruments which stream from disk or load completely into RAM and it's mostly these VSTi's that cause me grief. I've been using Cubase SX (1, 2 & 3) for some years without any major problem (not talking about SX specific bugs here). I have used/am using other hosts, which behave very well on the same PC like Ableton Live 4/5, Tracktion 1.6.xx or so (the NFR version offered by Mackie at a certain time) etc., so I doubt that something is fundamentally wrong with my hardware. I usually stick with brand components for ANYTHING, to prevent double buying gear because I went for too cheap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by metasymbol
And at the end: JAD will maybe have a better VST support , but from the base every linux audio app is the same like on every other distro. I like SUSE because it works on all computers I use, but if not, I would use another distro. Eg WineAsio can be compiled also for debian.
I'm looking forward to the final release of JAD, to better VST(i) support and such things and sure I'll be trying it out once again. Hopefully till then I'll be a little more knowledgeable as well about linux to circumvent/fix small quirks.

Thank you for taking the time talking about these issues with me.

Regards
Raphael
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Old 04-24-2007, 09:31 AM   #27
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metasymbol, theres some discussion in reaper chat, about what exactly people are meaning when they say vst plugs can often be used in linux now. What do we need to pull that off?

If you get bored ever it would be cool to see you on there
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Old 04-24-2007, 09:41 AM   #28
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While I wouldn't quite have used Tallismann's words, I can't imagine Linux is going to endear itself to many average-tech-ability music types who'd like a non-Windows REAPER DAW with great perfomance and minimum tweaking - *until* a particular distro becomes the recommended choice and there's a default way of setting it all up.

I'm used to tweaking Windows - 'cos you have to be! One of the benefits I'd want in moving anywhere else would be to avoid all the necessary XP-style switching off of crap to get things working well - but the flexibility to tweak as/when as I get more used to the OS.

Linux-heads always tell me that's the beauty - only put in what you want. But for now we're obviously still a fair way from being able to download an O/S package & a REAPER install and get going quickly without a steep learning curve!

I never thought of myself as a Mac type, but I'm not keen on Vista on a number of levels and so I may well end up switching to OSX when REAPER is ready - I think I would miss the flexibility of Windows though.

I know it's early days in the Linux discussion but I'm hoping one of the end goals is a straight-forward solution for setting a Linux REAPER DAW.
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Old 04-24-2007, 09:45 AM   #29
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so will this work on 64 studio?

Is it possible to easily go between drives? Last time I tried linux, you had to do this mount/unmount dancing stuff
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Old 04-24-2007, 09:54 AM   #30
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Quote:
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While I wouldn't quite have used Tallismann's words, I can't imagine Linux is going to endear itself to many average-tech-ability music types who'd like a non-Windows REAPER DAW with great perfomance and minimum tweaking - *until* a particular distro becomes the recommended choice and there's a default way of setting it all up.

I'm used to tweaking Windows - 'cos you have to be! One of the benefits I'd want in moving anywhere else would be to avoid all the necessary XP-style switching off of crap to get things working well - but the flexibility to tweak as/when as I get more used to the OS.

Linux-heads always tell me that's the beauty - only put in what you want. But for now we're obviously still a fair way from being able to download an O/S package & a REAPER install and get going quickly without a steep learning curve!

I never thought of myself as a Mac type, but I'm not keen on Vista on a number of levels and so I may well end up switching to OSX when REAPER is ready - I think I would miss the flexibility of Windows though.

I know it's early days in the Linux discussion but I'm hoping one of the end goals is a straight-forward solution for setting a Linux REAPER DAW.
That pretty much sums it up for me. It's great to see advances in VST support that may make Reaper Linux support less of an issue in the future.
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Old 04-24-2007, 10:14 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
metasymbol, theres some discussion in reaper chat, about what exactly people are meaning when they say vst plugs can often be used in linux now. What do we need to pull that off?

If you get bored ever it would be cool to see you on there
Pipe, what is the channel name for the chat?
#Reaper@freenode?

Raphael

Last edited by funkster1; 04-24-2007 at 10:17 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 04-24-2007, 10:27 AM   #32
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#reaper on cockos' irc server
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Old 04-24-2007, 11:55 AM   #33
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OK, thanks.
Will be logging in shortly, maybe you guys are able to help me out with some quirks

Raphael
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Old 04-24-2007, 12:39 PM   #34
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Linux will never be the OS of choice for musicians as long as you have to install or compile things for yourself, and as long as it isn't intuitive.

That's why Windows and OSX have a stranglehold on the situation. It isn't because their the most popular, its because their the most organised and easy to setup.

Linux has:

stacks and stacks of different distributions
stacks and stacks of additions, modules, and things you can "plug" into the kernel.
a lack of software for musicians to just plug in and play.

Once those three things are taken care of, Linux stands a chance. I don't think it'll be anytime within the next three or four years though. I could be wrong, I dunno, just my take.
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Old 04-24-2007, 01:08 PM   #35
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Metasymbol, which distro should I run? I have a dual opteron system and dont know JACK aboutlinux (or jack)
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Old 04-24-2007, 01:28 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Amberience View Post
Linux will never be the OS of choice for musicians as long as you have to install or compile things for yourself, and as long as it isn't intuitive.

That's why Windows and OSX have a stranglehold on the situation. It isn't because their the most popular, its because their the most organised and easy to setup.

Linux has:

stacks and stacks of different distributions
stacks and stacks of additions, modules, and things you can "plug" into the kernel.
a lack of software for musicians to just plug in and play.

Once those three things are taken care of, Linux stands a chance. I don't think it'll be anytime within the next three or four years though. I could be wrong, I dunno, just my take.


Maybe all it takes is somebody to put out a streaming-optimized, latency minimizing linux install that includes VSTi and ASIO support.... I dual-boot windows, as I think most serious musicians must, so booting into Linux for music is fine by me. And then if I could eventually get internet and email working under Linux, I could get rid of MS entirely....

Which I'd love to do, especially as I have a very bad feeling about Vista. I've tried a number of Linux installs over the years, but the lack of compatibility with standards and my existing VSTi's has made it impossible to use it for music. And little glitches (around hibernation especially) have kept me from using it for internet and general use.

But windows really is a mess. It's working (mostly) but it's a mess.

Does ASIOWine allow any PC VST host to (theoretically) run under Linux, and existing DLLs for plug-ins as well? Am I understanding this correctly? I use Plogue Bidule running Reaktor and Kontakt as the core of my system. Oooh, I'll bet that NI copy-protection won't work, will it? But then, I'm hoping to migrate away from NI in the next year or two anyway....

I'll go read up on this I guess. What an interesting thread!

cheers,
e
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Old 04-24-2007, 01:42 PM   #37
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Metasymbol, which distro should I run? I have a dual opteron system and dont know JACK aboutlinux (or jack)
Hmmm, maybe FrickelLinux 0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.1 very early very unstable pre-alpha preview? How should I know?
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Old 04-24-2007, 01:51 PM   #38
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Oooh, I'll bet that NI copy-protection won't work, will it? But then, I'm hoping to migrate away from NI in the next year or two anyway....
The NI copy-protection is not the biggest problem (it is software based), more hardware dongles can be very problematic.
So better stay with NI, they make really good software.
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Old 04-24-2007, 03:04 PM   #39
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Metasymbol, which distro should I run? I have a dual opteron system and dont know JACK aboutlinux (or jack)
Pipe, the 64-Studio distro is really quite good and above all, is very well tested.
It already has native 64-bit support and the next release (which should not be far off) will see the inclusion of multiprocessor support.
Also, their mailing list, even though not too busy at times, has a bunch of really nice people, not the kind of arrogant ubergeeks you often come across in many lists/fora.

And if I did manage to find my way throught the distro and it's apps, anyone can do. And you're way more technically apt then I am, I suppose (well, actually I'm sure )


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Old 04-24-2007, 03:05 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Amberience View Post
Linux will never be the OS of choice for musicians as long as you have to install or compile things for yourself, and as long as it isn't intuitive.

That's why Windows and OSX have a stranglehold on the situation. It isn't because their the most popular, its because their the most organised and easy to setup.

Linux has:

stacks and stacks of different distributions
stacks and stacks of additions, modules, and things you can "plug" into the kernel.
a lack of software for musicians to just plug in and play.
I agree with you in many points. The main reason why linux lacks creative enduser oriented software is, that commercial audio vendors dosn't support Linux. But energyXT2 and Reaper with WineAsio on Linux will work as an invitation for them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amberience View Post
Once those three things are taken care of, Linux stands a chance. I don't think it'll be anytime within the next three or four years though. I could be wrong, I dunno, just my take.
I'm more optimistic, I must be, because thats my mission whats been happening in the last few months with audiolinux is amazing.

I hope this year one of the great ones (like NI) will take more than a look to linux.
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