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Old 03-13-2012, 05:10 AM   #41
geoffroy
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- What will happend to take envelope volume ?

it will be a volume envelope so it will change

- What will happend to Pre FX volume envelope ?

same

- Will Item's fade behave differently ?

no reason for that

- What will happend to send volume envelope ?

it will be a volume envelope so it will change

- You can't add fix for different volume related scale in different version of Reaper because your project will sound different in each version

I don't think so. You would only change the display of the points and curves, not their values. A line between two points will still be a linear gain increase/decrease between two points. Or am I missing stg ?
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Old 03-13-2012, 11:14 AM   #42
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The old volume envelopes might actually look different in this new way of depicting the spread of values across a vertical space. Schwa actually said as much.

But Cockos wrote themselves in to that corner, and I'm sure they can write themselves out of it.

Deprecated. That's what this "we never looked outside" approach needs to be. And of course all volume envelopes have to behave this way.

Item take volumes you say ?
Place the line in the middle and give users more gain headroom to the top. +6dB maximum gain!!! That's Protools before v6 which came out roughly ten years ago. Their clip gain can do +36dB, and those folks are very careful about what they introduce.


The volume envelope right now is r-e-t-a-r-d-e-d. Cockos is going to fix it, because a lot of folks have been harping at them about this for a couple of years now. They get around to stuff. Noooo worries.

New ideas are of course very welcome in this thread, but I think I moaned enough for everyone now, eh.
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Old 09-18-2012, 02:40 PM   #43
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small bump on the volume envelope display scale, I guess this is the only feature I'd like to get
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:00 AM   #44
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Agreed. Out of all the major FRs going around at the moment, this is one of the bigger practical FR that needs addressing.

Volume scaling on the item volume envelope (handle) also needs the same fix.
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Old 10-18-2012, 11:38 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
Does anyone here edit the volume envelopes by hand below -12 dB ?
Yes, I try.
As a workaround I usually add a plugin with a gain/level control or back off the item gain to try to keep the "fader" in the -12 to +6dB range.

It is annoying though. I would really, really love a different display scale for volume envelopes!!!

Thanks airon!
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Old 12-14-2012, 09:28 AM   #46
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+1 for the ability to adjust envelope vertical scale (ie. zoom in/out vertically on automation envelopes)
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Old 04-27-2013, 04:22 AM   #47
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bump !
it's been an escalated FR since 2009.......
Status Popular Request
Priority 2
Suggested Version 3.14159
Implemented Version (none)
Users who would use this feature 208
Users who would not use this feature 0
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Old 06-03-2013, 06:20 PM   #48
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Just voted up, though my vote would be for all automation lanes to have an option for linear vs. logarithmic tapers.

My use-case is for frequency sliders in AU plugins (currently Aalto, the soft-synth). The parameter takes a range of 20 - 20k, but the automation lane distributes that range linearly, which is much less natural to use than a log-scale taper.
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Old 06-03-2013, 06:36 PM   #49
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Yeah, according to Schwa, the envelopes would be drawn bending if they changed the volume envelope display.

Looks to me like it's time for some something to get deprecated, like we did for so many other things.

Not sure this can be applied to plugin envelopes, though why not I suppose.

Maybe that's an excellent request, being able to setup globally per-plugin, how the values of a plugin parameter are shown in an envelope.
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Old 06-03-2013, 07:45 PM   #50
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My thought would be an option available by right-clicking on a given automation lane. Possibly a "set automation display taper" (or something less wordy) with the options "linear" and "logarithmic". It could default to linear so current projects would be unchanged, but for people who wanted log-scale volume automation or parameter automation for plugins they could switch it on as needed.

-s
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Old 06-04-2013, 07:37 AM   #51
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Page two of this pdf pretty much describes the problem with the envelope scaling.

http://www.personal.soton.ac.uk/jav/...inear_grph.pdf

Page three describes the solution... which is probably something similar to what the devs did when they coded the mixer faders.
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Old 06-04-2013, 08:02 PM   #52
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Nice find.
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Old 06-05-2013, 09:03 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssfrr View Post
Just voted up, though my vote would be for all automation lanes to have an option for linear vs. logarithmic tapers.

My use-case is for frequency sliders in AU plugins (currently Aalto, the soft-synth). The parameter takes a range of 20 - 20k, but the automation lane distributes that range linearly, which is much less natural to use than a log-scale taper.
Actually, the problem here seems to be slightly different. The *actual* value range of that parameter, like *all* other plug-in parameters, is 0.0 to 1.0 (not 20 to 20k). However, REAPER is not showing the actual parameter value, but the corresponding normalized, human-readable value (which happens to be 20 to 20k here). What REAPER should arguably be doing here, is to distribute the *actual* parameter value linearly across the automation envelope, and then convert it to the normalized value for display and editing purposes. Aalto already takes care of the logarithmic scaling itself; there is absolutely no need for REAPER to do this (nor to second-guess how the parameter *should* be scaled, as that is already part of its design). If you look at the VST version of Aalto, you'll notice that is exactly what REAPER is doing there (although in a less than ideal manner, imho - e.g. the 'tooltip' display on envelope points jumps back and forth between actual and normalized values when editing; manual value entry only accepts the actual value range, not the normalized one). So this particular example seems to be a feature where AU plug-ins are simply not supported as well as VST plug-ins.

PS: of course none of this implies that we shouldn't ask for parameter value rescaling options / features, as suggested. I'm all in favour.
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Old 09-07-2013, 02:17 AM   #54
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small bump for improving volume automation, now that all the midi love is done in 4.5...
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Old 03-13-2014, 01:57 PM   #55
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Another bump for this FR. Reaper is by far the most difficult DAW to work with in terms of volume envelope displays and being able to manually tweak them, IMO.
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Old 04-17-2014, 12:45 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
v5? That is FAR TOO LONG a wait. It should definitely be done sooner. Like, very soon. It's really irritating as it is now.
V5 should not be that far now, so there is still some hope ?
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Old 04-17-2014, 01:47 AM   #57
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So I should hope.

Let's take a look at the list of the volume envelope's shortcomings :
  • The scale in which the information is presented is detrimental to editing below values precisely below -12 dB. Protools appears to have done better at this since envelopes first appeared there, circa 1995/1996.

    I'm told this is difficult to fix with breaking anything, as envelopes will end up curved.

    None of the users care. Deprecate the old envelopes if you have to. Write yourself out of this corner for the benefit of ALL users, which includes you dear devs.

  • Editing the value graphically with the mouse is less precise than it could be.

    Replicating the value step width and the relationship of mouse movement to value change of the Item gain via the item gain knob is suggested.

    In other words 0.1 dB step width, independant of current vertical resolution of the envelope. We're not painters, but musicians, editors and engineers. Precision and ease of use is paramount.

Does that cover it for v5 ?
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Old 06-03-2014, 03:51 PM   #58
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I hope this will get a bit more attention than candy crush support... I think this FR is important... and I don't know why it is ignored. There must be a strong reason? Can't understand.
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Old 06-04-2014, 01:02 AM   #59
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200% agreed
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Old 11-08-2014, 01:18 PM   #60
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+1 !
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Old 11-23-2015, 02:48 PM   #61
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Is this ever going to happen? I've started to hit this problem. I have a track that is very quiet, -40 to -55dB... it just shows as a flat line on the envelope lane. Sort of impossible to edit, though it is working, my fader is moving up and down when I put it in Read mode.

I see this FR has existed for ever. I'm surprised about that.
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Old 11-23-2015, 11:34 PM   #62
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Hello,

Reaper 5 introduced a new preference for volume lanes.
Go to Preferences / Editing Behavior / Envelope Display and check fader-scaled volume envelopes

Best

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Old 04-02-2016, 09:00 AM   #63
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That's a great improvement. Thanks. Seems I might be a few months behind getting it down.

It's still a bit daunting to visually track your progress with detailed automation changes, BUT
I've been changing my workflow to include the "Take" envelopes, not just for volume, but quite a few other things.

That seems to have it covered. I'll be passing this on to a few colleagues that have been trying to fully switch to Reaper. The volume issue was the only thing they had trouble with.

Seriously. Thanks

(did I say thanks?)

r
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Old 03-06-2018, 01:04 AM   #64
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I cant seem to find the option to have the scaling of all volume envelopes set to fader scale when revealed in the arrange.

I used to have it but since 5.75 the option has gone and all my volume envelopes default to envelope amplitude scaling which has a very unusable scale under 0db.

In pref/editing behaviour/envelope display

the only fader-scaled option is concerning relative mouse edits

I find I can only individually change the scaling per track after the volume lane is revealed and right clicking on it

/Envelope Defaults/ Volume Envelope: fader scale

"Enveloope Defaults" implies it should work as a default for every track (permanently) but it certainly doesnt for me.

What am I missing?
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Old 01-31-2019, 12:39 AM   #65
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The preference is in project / track/send defaults (see attached file)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg volumeprefs.jpg (50.8 KB, 61 views)
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Old 05-17-2019, 12:02 PM   #66
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Amazing!!
I didn't know it was there, hidden in the preferences jungle!
Now we can talk!
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Old 07-20-2019, 08:24 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
Does anyone here edit the volume envelopes by hand below -12 dB ?
Yes, I find myself in that region too often when dealing with some effects sends and adjusting automation there, as well as making some frequency shifts on tone control.

A big two thumbs up to your request here, and I would like to add that putting settings into the options/preferences much like for the volume control and meter display would be a good thing for the general display of logarithmic envelopes.

For me, there are two main instances that I really want logarithmic display and editing and that is for frequency adjustment and level adjustment. Log display and editing is so much more intuitive and easier to accomplish for these two items. It would even be easier to select the points to edit as most would usually be towards the top or middle of the track rather than being scrunched down into the lower 2/3rds of the lane. I would not want log editing for everything.

I would like in the popup dialog that shows available automation for a track to have another column that enables logarithmic vs linear display and editing in the automation lane for the corresponding item.

Last edited by John Lance; 07-20-2019 at 08:31 AM.
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Old 07-20-2019, 11:58 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Lance View Post
A big two thumbs up to your request here
If you didn't catch it... this feature request was implemented some time ago, actually...
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Old 07-26-2019, 05:09 AM   #69
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Default Volume envelope range warping as in a track mixer?

Hi guys,

sorry for reopening this thread, I am quite new to Reaper, so I may very well be mistaken.

I'm on Reaper 5.980, and it still seems to me that the automation envelope is not, vertically, how the mixer fader are. I've put 0dB as maximum in the preferences, and, in my envelopes, -6dB is at half height, -12dB at a quarter height, etc. – this is of course how amplitude goes, but that's an impossible convention for mixing, at least for me.

I thought there was now an option to rescale the amplitude range as in a track fader, but I cannot find it.

Am I missing some preference?

Thanks,
Daniele
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Old 07-26-2019, 05:19 AM   #70
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Yes, you must enable "volume fader scaling" in project/track send defaults in preferences
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Old 07-26-2019, 06:01 AM   #71
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Hi, thank you for your quick answer.

I have toggled it, but everything still looks the same. My envelopes are still amplitude based.

Does it apply only to new projects? How can I change it on my current project?

Thank you very much again,
Daniele

Last edited by danieleghisi; 07-26-2019 at 06:01 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 07-26-2019, 09:27 AM   #72
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You can edit an existing envelope by right clicking on the envelope, then go to Envelope defaults submenu
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Old 07-30-2019, 11:53 AM   #73
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Amazing, thank you.
I didn't know it.
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Old 10-22-2019, 04:39 AM   #74
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Just a little fun update.


This is what the envelopes down to -40 dB look like now in Repaer, compared to the old way and to Protools.


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Old 10-22-2019, 05:28 AM   #75
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That's pretty good, no?
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