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Old 11-25-2008, 10:39 AM   #1
DarkStar
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Default 3dB drop for VSTi in folder (SOLVED)

[v2.53]

I have a VSTi on a track.
On playback the track and Master meters register -8.3 dB

If I put the track into a folder, on playback the Master and Folder track meters register -11.3 dB. I don't think that this drop is intended.

On further investigation this is tied to the Pan law (I'm set at -3dB):
Pan law = 0, Master = Folder = VSTi meter = -5.3dB
Pan law = -3dB, Master = Folder = -11.3, VSTi meter = -8.3dB
Pan law = -2.5dB, Master = Folder = -10.3dB, VSTi meter = -7.8dB

In this screenshot, the left-hand side is the "unfoldered" VSTI, and the right-hand side is the VSTi in a folder.
[IMG]http://img227.**************/img227/5808/dsr253dblevelsyk0.th.png[/IMG][IMG]http://img227.**************/images/thpix.gif[/IMG]
Bigger pic:
http://img227.**************/img227/5...blevelsyk0.png
Can someone confirm?
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Old 11-25-2008, 11:53 AM   #2
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Confirmed here... but I think this is normal behaviour.

Stereo tracks (and also folders) should be on 0dB pan law, otherwise there's always a drop in volume (or boost for +xx dB pan laws).
I use only -3 dB pan laws for mono channels...

Eddy
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Old 11-25-2008, 03:27 PM   #3
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... but should the audio sent from a child track to its parent folder track be subject to that law?

{For all I know this may have changeed in v2.99]
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Old 11-26-2008, 12:15 AM   #4
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Default Pan law stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by helpdeskeddy View Post
Confirmed here... but I think this is normal behaviour.

Stereo tracks (and also folders) should be on 0dB pan law, otherwise there's always a drop in volume (or boost for +xx dB pan laws).
I use only -3 dB pan laws for mono channels...

Eddy
It is correct to put folders at 0db, but are you sure about stereo track? Is there consensus on this? I can't substantiate 0db pan law for stereo tracks.
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Old 11-26-2008, 12:39 AM   #5
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A pan law of -3dB will result in a centered stereo file playing back 3dB quieter than it's original level. (this is a quote from the Reaper User Guide, page35)

It's no problem, you can always push the fader up a litte
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Old 11-26-2008, 09:14 AM   #6
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Default Pan Law Confusion

Thanx for the help, helpdeskeddy.
Still, what vexes me is how to set stereo FX and VSTi channels.

If you have a stereo reverb on a 0db stereo channel and you pan each side to the middle, won't you end up with a signal 3db louder.

Worse yet, what of a VSTi, or say an amp sim where the signal is mono but running through stereo fx? I would think -3db pan law would be called for in these instances, or is there a compromise made either way?

I guess what saying is that "It's not just a place where you dump things. It's more like a series of tubes."

Seems like a paradox, anyway.
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Old 11-26-2008, 10:22 AM   #7
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... I wish I hadn't mentioned the Pan law, now

Anyway:
- I am not changing the pan controls anywhere, so we can igonre the pan law,
- the VSTi outputs a stereo audio signal,
- with the VSTi track routed directly to the Master, the level is x dB,
- rendering creates an audio clip also with a level of x dB,
- with the VSTi track in a folder, and therefore routed to the folder track then to the Master, the level is x-3 dB,
- [new info] with the VSTi track Sent (pre-fader) to another track the level on both tracks is x dB.

This cannot be right. Foldering a track should not reduce the effective output level.

Turning it up turns up the noise level too so that is not always a good workaround.
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Old 11-26-2008, 11:12 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narcoleptigon View Post
If you have a stereo reverb on a 0db stereo channel and you pan each side to the middle, won't you end up with a signal 3db louder.
- in that case you would set the Pan law for the track to -3dB,
- right-click the Pan slider for the track to override the project default,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Narcoleptigon View Post
Worse yet, what of a VSTi, or say an amp sim where the signal is mono but running through stereo fx? I would think -3db pan law would be called for in these instances, or is there a compromise made either way?
- AFAIK the mono signal from the VSTi would go to both channels on the track,
- so you'd need to reduce the level by 50% to get back to the original level
- change the outputs from the VSTi to one (right-click the [Out] button in the Fx chain window and unselect one of the outputs), this will still give a stereo wave, but the audio will only be on one channel.

HTH
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Old 11-26-2008, 01:43 PM   #9
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Just to chime in (although I do see that this is not about pan laws at all)... when you have two sources of the same amplitude and at every frequency they are doubled, which is not 3 dB, but 6 dB. The reason many DAWs use -3 dB not -6 dB is because -6 dB feels wrong and too drastic.

I'm just pointing out the fact.

Also, folders can use Pan Laws, it depends whether they are stereo or not (mono uses the pan law).

Personally I love REAPER's one track method for everything, it's great. Which is also why I use the compensated pan laws (1 size works all)...+3 dB on pans only...you never pan stereo so it works great.
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Old 12-09-2008, 04:30 PM   #10
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Set the project pan law to 0dB and then just adjust the pan-law on all mono channels => Problem solved. You don't need pan-law on stereo tracks.
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Old 12-09-2008, 04:52 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by labyrinth View Post
... on pans only...you never pan stereo so it works great.
You never pan stereo tracks? Comparatively rare sure, but never?
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