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Old 08-13-2018, 09:39 PM   #41
mschnell
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Originally Posted by andyp24 View Post
Yes to a degree BUT even though the subproject is multitrack, once it's rendered and playing in the main project the individual tracks can't have different sends to reverbs etc.
As described above, (on top of the current pre-rendered subprojects) "live" subprojects would need audio and midi routing feature. This also holds for routing multiple signals out of the subproject.

I don't know if (in case you want a pre-rended subproject) this already is possible by multi-channel subprojects.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 08-13-2018 at 09:52 PM.
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Old 08-13-2018, 09:49 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by vanhaze View Post
But seeing Grouped Items as just one "block" will give rest to my eyes.
A rectangle you draw above the tracks, might be one of the ways to define a new (live or pre-rendered) subproject. I don't know if this already is possible, but to me it does seem viable.

-Michael
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Old 08-14-2018, 06:22 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
A rectangle you draw above the tracks, might be one of the ways to define a new (live or pre-rendered) subproject. I don't know if this already is possible, but to me it does seem viable.

-Michael
In cubase there is the parts editor. Check how it works here:
https://youtu.be/2xZR9A3_AF4?t=197
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Old 08-14-2018, 07:44 AM   #44
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As said, I think that a more "global" view makes sense if thinking about additional workflow options.

Here: if there already is a (very well appreciated) feature that allows for creating a "playback set" of items (i.e. subprojects, Reaper in fact is famous for), exactly the same paradigm / workflow should be used if a new kind "playback set" is to be implemented, only the differences between the should need new control settings.

-Michael
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Old 08-14-2018, 07:50 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Here: if there already is a (very well appreciated) feature that allows for creating a "playback set" of items (i.e. subproject), exactly the same paradigm / workflow should be used if a new kind "playback set" is to be implemented, only the differences between the should need new control settings.
It's not the same workflow as you can see in the video. It is not destructive, no render, no another project. Everything in place. Useful for different things. It's not a subproject. It's a part , or a non destructive glue whatever we want to call it. In a single track. With it's own editor. And yes .. A LOT of work for devs.

Anyway! opinions ; )
Cheers

Last edited by deeb; 08-14-2018 at 07:56 AM.
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Old 08-14-2018, 08:05 AM   #46
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Yes I can't help thinking that although Sub-projects could be extended to allow the feature set I'm requesting, it's not a natural fit.

A sub-project can only be generated from one track. If items on multiple tracks are selected, multiple sub projects are created (which are not automatically grouped or linked together in any way). If a folder containing multiple tracks is used to generate a subproject then it creates a multitrack rendered output, but without manually routing everything back to the tracks of the original items the link to the original mixer tracks is lost.

My FR seems (to me) much closer to an extension of the Group function than a sub-project. In a group, all items stay on their respective tracks and the only change is that they are linked together in certain ways for editing, and their Group membership is indicated visually. All I am asking is for more functionality for this Group - optional different editing behaviour with the fade in/outs, the ability to add Item (group) envelopes and FX, and (optionally, as suggested by others) the ability to pool group copies so editing one instance affects all others.

Andy
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Old 08-14-2018, 01:11 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyp24 View Post
All I am asking is for more functionality for this Group - optional
different editing behaviour with the fade in/outs, the ability to add Item
(group) envelopes and FX, and (optionally, as suggested by others) the
ability to pool group copies so editing one instance affects all others.

Andy
Exactly that.

I just want to remind of the way this is solved in other DAWs
and why it is solved that way.

Image you have some of such "enhanced groups" in your
arrange window. You can see the little group-indicator on
each item only at a minimum zoom level. As soon as you
zoom out a little you can't see which items are grouped.

And more than that: If you have more than one group, you
will never see at every item what group it belongs to. Just
imagine this scenery: You have many of these groups. And
every group is distributed over more than one track. These
multitude of groups will create a very unclear and confusing
arrange-picture. After a short time you'll be lost in an
infusible hurly-burly.

This hurly-burly is the reason for a graphical representation
of these "enhanced groups". If each group is represented by
a box, maybe with different colours and a proper indicator
line, you'll have your "inhanced groups" in a perfect outline.
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Old 08-14-2018, 02:02 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyp24 View Post
A sub-project can only be generated from one track.
Is this really true ?
If yes, this is sensible to be extended: e.g. an action "create a multiple track subproject from all selected items". This is a viable request as well for the existing (pre-rendered) as for the "life" subproject feature.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 08-14-2018 at 09:41 PM.
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Old 08-15-2018, 02:44 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enroe View Post
Exactly that.

I just want to remind of the way this is solved in other DAWs
and why it is solved that way.

Image you have some of such "enhanced groups" in your
arrange window. You can see the little group-indicator on
each item only at a minimum zoom level. As soon as you
zoom out a little you can't see which items are grouped.

And more than that: If you have more than one group, you
will never see at every item what group it belongs to. Just
imagine this scenery: You have many of these groups. And
every group is distributed over more than one track. These
multitude of groups will create a very unclear and confusing
arrange-picture. After a short time you'll be lost in an
infusible hurly-burly.

This hurly-burly is the reason for a graphical representation
of these "enhanced groups". If each group is represented by
a box, maybe with different colours and a proper indicator
line, you'll have your "inhanced groups" in a perfect outline.
Thing is though, in my workflows for Drama sound design, the "group" may exist on tracks which are separated by other tracks in between, which contain items that are not in the Group. I wouldn't want the feature to be restricted to items that are 'together ' ie you can draw a box around without including anything else. I would prefer a different graphical representation. This could be as simple as a different default item colour.

Last edited by andyp24; 08-15-2018 at 02:49 AM.
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Old 08-15-2018, 02:48 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Is this really true ?
If yes, this is sensible to be extended: e.g. an action "create a multiple track subproject from all selected items". This is a viable request as well for the existing (pre-rendered) as for the "life" subproject feature.

-Michael
According to the manual, it's true 😀 However even if multiple tracks created a single multitrack subproject, once that's rendered (to a single multitrack item) how would you get the outputs of that item (which must be placed on only one track in the master ptoject) to route automatically back to the tracks where the component items started? Sounds tricky to me, hence I think it's better to think of this as a "grouping" request where everything remains on the original playlist.
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Old 08-15-2018, 06:48 AM   #51
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I suppose there are multiple options to be considered. Hoping for the wisdom of the devs, desinging an optimum versatile, great to use and consistent subproject workflow ...


-Michael
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Old 08-15-2018, 08:31 AM   #52
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For myself (not a developer!) I can't imagine how it would be possible to come up with a sub-project structure that works in this scenario.

I must admit I can't see much advantage myself in the "live subproject" idea, but of course other users have different views on that.

But let's suppose that the devs come up with a "live subproject" structure so that (for whatever reason) certain items/tracks are sent off to a project on another tab to run in sync with the main project, without requiring rendering.

So then, in the main project, there would have to be an Item on the playlist "pointing at" the subproject in the second tab. Items in Reaper can only exist on one track, so if the subproject needs to be multitrack (with individual tracks being routed and processed differently in the master project window), then that "pointer item" would have to be a multitrack Item, with some kind of syntax to tell Reaper to automatically route its tracks to channels in the main mixer.

What then if the master mixer channel order is changed? What if the channels are re-named? What if the sub-project has more than 64 tracks (items in Reaper can "only" be up to 64 tracks)? How would the sub-project cope with any of that in order to route everything correctly in the master mixer?

It seems FAR more sensible to me to consider this FR as a GROUPING feature. All the items stay where they are with whatever track processing and routing is already set, so there are no complicated problems to solve. All that is required is that there is another layer of features added to what you can already do with Groups.

I'm sure there are great FRs for extending the flexibility of SubProjects.... I'm just not sure that this particular feature request sits in that category.
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Old 08-15-2018, 08:50 AM   #53
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Quote:
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For myself (not a developer!) I can't imagine how it would be possible to come up with a sub-project structure that works in this scenario.

I must admit I can't see much advantage myself in the "live subproject" idea, but of course other users have different views on that.

I think subprojects is a powerful and useful feature that devs concluded that would benefit a lot use cases with little development time effort. They did not spend much time with it. Everything was present in reaper, they just connected the dots and BAM a great feature was lanched. (cleans project, clean resources, .. many things)

the name is clear: "sub project" and is based on rendering. It's not an in project editor. It's an external project. Aimed for that use.

You are asking for organisational containers (no render, no free up resources) in existing project, so it is a different thing. Your feature does not have anything to do with subproject.

Personally i find multiple tracks in your feature interesting, powerful but in practice maybe confusing. Per track i could see as also powerful but less confusing.

Last edited by deeb; 08-15-2018 at 09:05 AM.
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Old 08-15-2018, 09:39 AM   #54
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Yes, it wasn't me who introduced the concept of sub-projects for this FR.... ��

Why would having multiple tracks in this be confusing? Groups can already join together items on many different tracks, so that they move together.... what's more confusing in my scenario?

It's another layer of control, that's all. So, for example, we can already have Item Envelopes and Track envelopes, Item FX and Track FX etc. You already have to bear in mind what the cumulative result of these will be on any given item. With my proposal, you would add Group Envelopes and FX to that control, and of course have to understand what that would add to the end result. You'd also have a "Group Fade In" and "Group Fade Out" handle, and the option to Pool copies of the Group.

But much more confusing? No, I don't think so..... I described above (a few posts back) a scenario in Sound Effects design for which this is perfect, and absolutely needs to be multitrack.

Andy

Last edited by andyp24; 08-15-2018 at 10:01 AM.
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Old 08-15-2018, 10:03 AM   #55
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ok ! seems what you want is group and being able to pool groups, .. and have a common online fx between them.

I am talking about different things! sorry sabotage

Good luck!
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Old 08-15-2018, 11:00 AM   #56
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That's ok!

It's an interesting discussion, and when someone raised the idea of sub-projects as a solution I gave it some serious thought.

If nothing else, this thread has helped clarify in my mind that my FR is best suited to an enhancement of Groups rather than something entirely new.

Now let's hope our dear Devs are reading this and think it's worthwhile!

Andu
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Old 08-15-2018, 12:01 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyp24 View Post
my FR is best suited to an enhancement of Groups rather than something entirely new.
That does sound viable.

-Michael
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Old 08-16-2018, 03:16 AM   #58
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I think I'll rename the thread (if I can) to reflect this.... :-)

Hmm, can't work out how... :-(
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Old 08-16-2018, 06:33 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyp24 View Post
I think I'll rename the thread (if I can) to reflect this.... :-)

Hmm, can't work out how... :-(
edit thread-> Advanced and change title (something like this i think)
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Old 08-16-2018, 07:54 AM   #60
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Default Testing title change

Can't see an "edit thread" button anywhere...

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Old 08-16-2018, 07:59 AM   #61
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Old 08-16-2018, 09:34 AM   #62
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I can only see how to change the title of a Post, not the whole thread...
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Old 08-16-2018, 09:38 AM   #63
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when you edit you should see a "go advanced" button near the "save" button
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Old 08-16-2018, 09:55 AM   #64
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Yes, I do, and that's where the option to "change title" appears. But that only changes the title of that reply, not the entire thread. Unless I'm blind and missing something obvious.
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Old 08-16-2018, 10:00 AM   #65
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did you try on your first post?
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Old 08-16-2018, 11:16 AM   #66
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Ahh, I see: You want to change the title of this
thread into:

"How do I change the title?"

Nice!
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Old 08-16-2018, 02:00 PM   #67
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Ah, done it now. Yes, it's there if I edit the initial post. Thanls
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Old 08-30-2021, 03:20 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deeb View Post

... with a container you clean the project, less confusion. visually more quick and obvious.
Imagine hundred of peaces that are ment to be reused and we don't want to change
them often or at all.
That is only one aspect: clarity and a tidy arrangement window.

The second - and actually much more important - aspect is that
of "repeatability": You have a successful bass run or a guitar
run, edited in a complicated way - and this should appear again
in every chorus. And most likely you will want to change that
bassline or guitar part here and there as you arrange it.

How do you do that in Reaper?

--> 1. Create a "Subproject"
--> 2. Draw an "Audio-Box" - this feature-request!.

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Old 09-25-2021, 12:47 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deeb View Post

I am thinking about a feature only.
I mean Not render, because that is destructive ...
Yes, exactly! That's what it's about.

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Old 03-20-2022, 03:13 PM   #70
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I have created my version of this feature in ReaScript: it's called Superglue. Check it out here.
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