How high should I set master volume?

[Sidney]

When I'm done mixing the track I always set the master track volume to where peak volume is at exactly 0. (In my head this means the track won't clip?)

When I render the track to mp3, the overall volume is usually alot lower then most mp3 files I have on my computer. I'm sure I must be missing something.. Is it possible for my mp3 files to have a similar volume and not have any clipping?

[Nip]

Depending on genre you could use a limiter on master that allows you to raise volume 2-4dB or so. Lower threshold until you see peeks in this range that is limited.

If that is still to low - attack the problem at the source - the individual tracks with a compressor.

[wolfgerb]

Well, there is no way around diving into the 1000 secrets of mixing and mastering.
First you have to understand the difference between peak-level and RMS level.

The Peak level shows you the highest peaks in your signal. these should not go over 0db on your master output. RMS level shows the average level over a certain timeframe and determines (together with some other factors like frequency content of your music) the "perceived loudness" of your mix. What you are experiencing is a lack of perceived loudness in your tracks.

rightclick on the level meter of your master track and set your meter to show peak+rms levels:


The higher the rms level the "louder" your track will sound.
As already mentioned higher RMS levels can be accomplished by "mastering" your tracks.
By carefully applying compression and limiting to your mix you prevent the peaks from going over 0db and raise the rest of the signal up. since the dynamic of the music is reduced, this process takes a lot of experience and taste, otherwise you end with a mix that many refer to as "squashed to death".
this is a pic of three different masters. All three peak at 0db.
The first mix has a rms level of -18db, the second of -12db and the third of -7,5db:

A lot of currently released music would look like the third one or even worse and there are heated debates going on, just google for "loudness war" and you will get an idea.

Please note , that the above written is not a scientific explanation, but some short tips to get you going.
Also google for "mastering" or go to groove3.com and maybe look for their "mastering in the box explained" video tutorial which is on offer now for 25.- bucks.

Hope that helps,
wolfger

[heda]

This is the problem of the Loudness War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

Your overall volumen being lower doesn't mean your song is mastered with lower quality. In fact yours may be much better than a compressed track without dynamics. But this depends of course on the style of music you are producing. It depends if you produce music or noise. If you want to produce noise you can push it to the limits with many volume maximizer limiter plugin. But if you are doing music then you don't really need a limiter.

[ramses]

Originally Posted by Sidney

When I'm done mixing the track I always set the master track volume to where peak volume is at exactly 0. (In my head this means the track won't clip?)

When I render the track to mp3, the overall volume is usually alot lower then most mp3 files I have on my computer. I'm sure I must be missing something.. Is it possible for my mp3 files to have a similar volume and not have any clipping?

Leave the master fader at zero at all times and mix into the master at appropriate levels. Use limiters and or make up gain plugins at the master to get your mixes up into the red if that's what you're after.

Getting tracks to "pop" is usually a 2-stage process: 1) Mixing the track to sound as good as possible, and 2) Mastering the track to get it to play nicely with recent releases in similar genres, different mediums, etc.

You might benefit from using this 2-stage approach, as it will allow you to try more stuff out in the mastering phase, and not to worry to much about levels at the mixing stage. As always YMMV.

[serr]

Originally Posted by ramses

Leave the master fader at zero at all times and mix into the master at appropriate levels. Use limiters and or make up gain plugins at the master to get your mixes up into the red if that's what you're after.

Getting tracks to "pop" is usually a 2-stage process: 1) Mixing the track to sound as good as possible, and 2) Mastering the track to get it to play nicely with recent releases in similar genres, different mediums, etc.

You might benefit from using this 2-stage approach, as it will allow you to try more stuff out in the mastering phase, and not to worry to much about levels at the mixing stage. As always YMMV.

Basically this.
Master fader at 0db. No exceptions.

Next you need to understand the difference between:
- a full quality 24 bit mix
- full quality 24 bit master (usually has level carefully boosted)
- reduced quality portable master (16bit CD) (often made from the full master and often limited and raised a bit more in level)
- the lowly mp3 (extreme reduced quality portable master often made from the reduced CD)

Make the reduced portable formats after the full master is done. It's too confusing to try doing this all in one step.

If you haven't yet, get some commercially released 24 bit masters to listen to so you know what full quality music sounds like. It's VERY confusing to use a portable master for reference when you are mixing - especially if you have limited experience.

[heda]

Originally Posted by serr

Next you need to understand the difference between:
- a full quality 24 bit mix
- full quality 24 bit master (usually has level carefully boosted)
- reduced quality portable master (16bit CD) (often made from the full master and often limited and raised a bit more in level)
- the lowly mp3 (extreme reduced quality portable master often made from the reduced CD)

I agree with you.. but also a 16 bit CD or mp3 could have good quality and enough dynamic range if dithered properly when converting to 16 bit. Normally mp3s are used in low quality music players like portable players and such, and that's why it is compressed more because it is used in noisy environments or with a low power amplifier.

One day all music players will have gain normalization and this problem will be gone. hopefully? Maybe not 100%. I'm not sure if portable players will be able to handle High Quality music even if they can read 24 bit files.

The problem started with the CDs not having a normalization of volume standard. And naturally everyone pushed to the limit as everyone wanted to sound louder. But louder doesn't mean better.

[serr]

Hopefully soon we will just be able to deliver a 24 bit master and have any device take care of the dynamic range if needed.

The good news is we can deliver the exact copy of the master now. No more of this trying to get closer with special audiophile editions and so on. 24 bit master. Done.

But some people still listen to 16 bit CD's and then there are all these cheap little portable devices. So... why not deliver to those as well in the interim. There's no loser because the 'audiophile' audience is listening to your 24 bit masters.

[heda]

you are right serr
Portable devices and all devices should have to be able to read the 24 bit master and do their needed downsample and dither and compression to their needs for each device on the fly.

Audiophiles also like to listen to surround editions.. that's another issue with all the surround different configurations and calibrations...Complicated. That's why surround is still for a minority.

[serr]

Yes sir! Everything should be mixed in surround
(But I have no problem with mono if it's the best mix.)

[jimrogenski]

Originally Posted by heda

This is the problem of the Loudness War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

plugin. But if you are doing music then you don't really need a limiter.

I always use a limiter in my master track. However, I use it tastefully. A limiter can be an excellent tool to adjust the loudness of your mix. This helps me to get all of my songs to approximately the same loudness. On my first mixdown of a song, before any mastering, I set my limiter for peaks around -2db and adjust the threshold to give me rms figures of around -12db. This helps me to leave enough headroom. I would find it quite difficult to accomplish these goals without a limiter. I don't squash the track, but use the limiter to make gentle loudness adjustments.

[richie43]

Originally Posted by jimrogenski

I always use a limiter in my master track. However, I use it tastefully. A limiter can be an excellent tool to adjust the loudness of your mix. This helps me to get all of my songs to approximately the same loudness. On my first mixdown of a song, before any mastering, I set my limiter for peaks around -2db and adjust the threshold to give me rms figures of around -12db. This helps me to leave enough headroom. I would find it quite difficult to accomplish these goals without a limiter. I don't squash the track, but use the limiter to make gentle loudness adjustments.

There are always many different ways to accomplish the same tasks, and if this works for you, have at it. But every Mastering Engineer I have ever spoken to has explicitly said that if you have any intentions on having material mastered to never use limiters or compression on the master buss unless it is a "character" aspect (a specific color or tone is imparted). If you are trying to maintain consistent overall levels for mixes, why not just stay aware of your gain-staging throughout the process? I do some professional mastering, and even when it is done tastefully, I can always tell if a limiter had been used on the master buss, and if I have the option, I request new mixes with the limiter removed. I am not saying that I know the "right" way, by all means, I am just responding with my own experience (yes, that last statement was my disclaimer so I don't start any yelling matches....).

[serr]

I don't recommend mixing through a limiter because it's too easy to end up with some wild balances that you don't realize because everything is LOUD.
But... sometimes I'll insert a mastering limiter just to demo how the mix sounds at "mastered" levels. Sometimes it reveals things to work on in the mix.

Whatever it takes to make your perception work for you.

[karbomusic]

This helps me to get all of my songs to approximately the same loudness. On my first mixdown of a song, before any mastering

Not to be too picky on the steps/terminology but limiting to get songs at the same appx. loudness or most anything else that makes songs coheseive between each other that is applied to the master bus is part of mastering, not mixing. That's fine if it is your way but the way you explain it makes it mastering.

On the master fader discussion, there is no rule that states it must be left alone. I don't touch it much and not having to move it shows one is doing a good job at track levels/mixing. However, at the end if I need to move the master up/down a few dB to get it the level where it should be, I'm certainly going to do it and there won't be any ill affects from doing so.

[karbomusic]

I don't recommend mixing through a limiter because it's too easy to end up with some wild balances that you don't realize because everything is LOUD.

Having a limiter on the mix doesn't make everything too loud, over adjusting it does. The advice is generally good though.

[planetnine]

I only use limiters creatively in mixing, I keep my master level well down away from clipping territory.

I use a limiter set to -1dB TP when mastering for uncompressed audio to catch any stray transients. I use an R128 meter at the end of the chain so I can master to a loudness level, not so I can make it as loud as hypercompressed commercial CDs. I'm fed up of destroying mixes at the mastering stage for no other reason than someone is frightened to release something if it's not shredded to the same level as some released material.

I'll go to -12 LUFS integrated, but they can take it to a mastering engineer if they want it louder.


>

[faun2500]

Originally Posted by ramses

Leave the master fader at zero at all times and mix into the master at appropriate levels.

Just leave it!

[mikeroephonics]

Q:
How high should I set master volume?

A:
- Record at 24-bit.
- Leave it at 0.0dB.
- Peak your MIX version (not your MASTER version) to around -15dBFS.
- Raise your hardware monitor's volume dial about 15dB to make up for the quieter mix.

Congratulations! Your transients have been preserved!

[Jeffsounds]

Originally Posted by mikeroephonics

Q:
How high should I set master volume?

A:
- Record at 24-bit.
- Leave it at 0.0dB.
- Peak your MIX version (not your MASTER version) to around -15dBFS.
- Raise your hardware monitor's volume dial about 15dB to make up for the quieter mix.

Congratulations! Your transients have been preserved!

Great answer!

[mllgrennman]

Originally Posted by serr

Master fader at 0db. No exceptions.

May I ask, What is the problem if you don't? What is the consequence if I push the master as far up as it can go up before clipping?

This is an honest question...many experts say to leave it at 0 but I'm curious about the specifics!

[SonicAxiom]

Originally Posted by mllgrennman

May I ask, What is the problem if you don't? What is the consequence if I push the master as far up as it can go up before clipping?

This is an honest question...many experts say to leave it at 0 but I'm curious about the specifics!

The level limit in digital audio being at 0 dB full scale is a fixed given. Every digial mix aims at peaking as close to this value as possible (without ever exceeding it, of course). There are plenty of level controls available in a DAW to get a mix peak at the optimal level before it even hits the master fader so, essentially, a master fader wouldn't even have to exist in order to get a mix that has optimal peak levels. It's best practice to use the level controls available along the way during mixing in order to get the mxing levels correct and leaving the master fader at 0 dB. Working this way will sharpen your senses on how to achieve proper gain staging which is a beneficial thing to know for lots of reasons.

When inserting audio into a DAW (like a track from a CD that has been properly mastered and peaks at -0.8 dB), you don't want to have its level altered accidentally in the background or even by default and without you doing it deliberately. I've come across many occasions where people have wondered why their output levels where off from the expected reading only because the master fader wasn't at 0 dB. Getting the output level right without (mis)using the master fader to correct it will sound better because your levels will likely be more modest and reasonable overall which results in plugins working more at their sweet spot levels (as opposed to them being driven too hard all the time, resulting in unwanted distortion).

My master track level is fixed at 0 dB by a hidden volume envelope and the same goes for other busses I have in my mixing template (notably send-fx tracks) and which are not supposed to have a level other than 0 dB. All my templates also include a VCA track which allows me to easily alter the level of the entire mix before it hits the master track.

.

[Stella645]

Originally Posted by mllgrennman

May I ask, What is the problem if you don't? What is the consequence if I push the master as far up as it can go up before clipping?

This is an honest question...many experts say to leave it at 0 but I'm curious about the specifics!

Really, there is no problem at all as long as you understand what it's doing. Just be aware that any metering on the master will not reflect the render output level and fader level will affect input to all plugs....so simplest option is to find a way not to use it (unless you have no plugs at all on master)

[serr]

In a perfect world you would have your mix dialed in with intentional levels. You would be rendering that to a file and you'd simply want to pass that intentional mix 1:1 with the master fader at unity. So in theory, there's no cause to adjust anything and you really do want it to stay at precisely unity.

No one means to suggest to never do a fast and loose move sometimes when you know very well what you're doing. The advice is more aimed at the novice who might start using that master fader like a personal monitor volume control while they work. Then your final mix level ends up being "I don't know".

A situation where you might need to dim the entire mix for the receiving end is an example where you would grab the master fader.

[vdubreeze]

The Master should stay at 0, but that doesn't prevent overs. Unless the peaks are staying not close to 0 I'd say always put a high quality limiter/maximizer last on the master (but before a dither, if using a plugin and not in the render) and set ceiling at -.02 or whatever you want. Mp3 conversion processes can clip a file that is literally at 0, so if mp3s are in the future of this render, best to drop the ceiling (not the master) the tiniest bit. I often set up a separate stereo aux bus that has any "master bus" plugins except for setting the level, and then the Master track has nothing except Toneboosters Barricade with a ceiling of -.02 and I can raise it in Barricade to lick against that or not.

Anything else depends on the context. Are you mastering it later? Is someone else mastering it later? Do they want it with no master fx or with whatever you put on it? Will this version be the played version for the foreseeable future?