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Old 03-01-2019, 11:11 AM   #1
srdmusic
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Default Auto Plugin Delay Compensation options

Currently Reaper auto adjust the latency of a track by full buffer setting amount. for example if a plugin caused 4 samples of latency Reaper will adjust the latency to 1024 samples of your buffer is set to 1024.

This is an extreme amount of latency per plugin.

I realize that for slower machines this makes Reaper much more stable but for powerful machines like mine I would like the option of having reaper delay by the exact amount of latency the plugin is reporting rather than a full buffer.

This could simply be a check box in the preferences so that machines that can not handle the lower latency will be able to still work the old way.

Is there any reason why Reaper would need to add so much more latency than the way most other DAWs work?
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Old 03-06-2019, 06:45 AM   #2
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Yes! +1
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Old 03-06-2019, 10:07 PM   #3
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I was wondering the same thing... +1
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Old 03-07-2019, 03:18 AM   #4
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If your machine is powerful, why have the buffer that high in the first place?

And do you have some evidence that other DAWs work differently? My understanding is that buffers are always processed in full chunks, sequentially, so how could you hear some new audio before the entire buffer has been processed?

Also, is this affected by anticipative fx processing?
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Old 03-07-2019, 05:55 AM   #5
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Like FoxAsteria said, Digital Audio is handled in buffers.
You can disable PDC per Plugin, if you wish and work the old way.
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Old 08-17-2019, 12:49 PM   #6
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Reaper doesn't stop at just fitting the 4 samples within a 1024 buffer. It appears to add extra 1024 buffer for each new plugin!? unless im doing something crazy wrong? which is possible because no-one appears to be complaining about this?

for example a 4 sample delayed vst used 4 times at 1024 will create a crazy high 4096 buffer setting on the track!

Please tell me im wrong as this is the only thing thats stopping reaper from becoming my main daw.

Many plug ins from softube and plugin alliance have very small delays like this which cause no latency issues in any other daws
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Old 08-17-2019, 12:54 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dissentuk View Post
for example a 4 sample delayed vst used 4 times at 1024 will create a crazy high 4096 buffer setting on the track!
That is wrong, it will use 16/1024 samples and delay by 1024 samples.
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Old 08-17-2019, 01:00 PM   #8
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so why does is say 4096 samples in the performance meter? and the input lag of vst instruments plays as if its 4096?
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Old 08-17-2019, 03:11 PM   #9
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I just experimented here, and if I put three JSFX plugins in series on a track, each with 44 samples (1 ms) PDC, Reaper indeed counts 3 times the buffer size, so at 512 samples buffer I get a total of 1536 samples PDC.

I imagine this is because the audio is passed from plugin to plugin in buffer sized chunks.
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Old 08-17-2019, 03:47 PM   #10
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Ok thanks so its not just me.

no other daws do this they all fit any small delay compensation within the current buffer like what Fergler said.

Fergler im assuming you dont have many plugins with a few samples of delay? try out what you said should happen and the results may suprise you!
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Old 08-17-2019, 10:22 PM   #11
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???

AFAIK; the VST API requires a plugin to tell the DAW the latency it imposes in terms of samples. Reaper shows this as PDC.

And I am pretty sure that Reaper handles this appropriately.

If a plugin reports a false value, Reaper itself can't do anything about it, but of course you can add another plugin (se +/- delay in ReaPack) that imposes a fake PDC (i.e. a negative delay) or a positive delay.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 08-18-2019 at 02:14 AM.
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Old 08-18-2019, 01:38 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dissentuk View Post
Ok thanks so its not just me.

no other daws do this ...
Ooops. I doubt this. Because if you put three fx in series
then the delays must add up.

Usually you put fx here and there on tracks, and fx on different
tracks are not in series, instead they are parallel, so they don't
add up regarding pdc-delay times.
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Old 08-18-2019, 01:47 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
???

AFAIK; the VST API requires a plugin to tell the DAW the latency it imposes in terms of samples. Reaper shows this as PDC.

And I am pretty sure that Reaper handles this appropriately.

If a plugin reports a false vaklue, Reaper itself can't do anything about it, but of course you can add another plugin (se +/- delay in ReaPack) that imposes a fake PDC (i.e. a negative delay) or a positive delay.

-Michael
I do not know what "appropriately" means in this context, but what I observe is that Reaper apparently adds one buffer of PDC for each plugin in a sequence, just as mentioned above.

Here
Code:
desc:MF/PDCtester
/*******************************************
 * Allows to set the PDC reported to Reaper
 * for testing what happens with several in 
 * series.
*******************************************/
slider1:4<4,22050,1> PDC (samples)

@slider
currentPDC != slider1 ?
(
    currentPDC = slider1;
    pdc_delay = currentPDC;
    pdc_bot_ch = 0; // tells REAPER we delay the first two channels (spl0/spl1).
    pdc_top_ch = 2; 
);
is a small JSFX that does nothing else but report PDC to reaper. Put three of these in sequence on the same track. Here Reper reports 1536 samples total PDC for 512 buffer, even though the plugins only have 4 samples delay each.



I am not sure what false reporting of the delay has to do with this.
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Old 08-18-2019, 01:55 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enroe View Post
Ooops. I doubt this. Because if you put three fx in series
then the delays must add up.

Usually you put fx here and there on tracks, and fx on different
tracks are not in series, inseead they are parallel, so they don't
add up regarding pdc-delay times.
And it is "in series" that we are talking about, AFAIU. In parallel is another thing, of course.

But having several FX in series on a single track is not uncommon, and if each of those have tiny amounts of delay, each one gets a buffer full of delay and it quickly adds up.

To continue my post above...
One strange thing is that Reaper briefly reports a PDC of 12, before switching to 1536. This happens when I switch from some app (like Irfanview when capturing the plugin window GUI) to Reaper:



Note that its says "4/12" at the bottom there, whereas in the picture above it says "4/1536". Strange... maybe.

W7x64, Reaper v5.981/x64
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Old 08-18-2019, 02:16 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabian View Post
but what I observe is that Reaper apparently adds one buffer of PDC for each plugin in a sequence, just as mentioned above.
You can try this with the +/- delay from ReaPack.

Here you can set the PDC it reports (in negative delay mode).

I remember to have tested that Reaper does handle this as expected.

BTW1: Regarding testing: the PDC is only fully updated when the playback is stopped and then started.

BTW2: As audio is always handled in complete buffers, using a PDC of a single sample needs handling a full buffer of advanced execution and applying a delay og the count of samples in a buffer minus 1 afterwards. This obviously is what the two PDC numbers shown indicate (as long as only using a single plugin).

And I can confirm that the total PDC buffer count used for PDC compensation (seemingly shown right of the "/" increase with each plugin requesting only a single sample of PDC (shown left of the "/"). I'm not sure that this is really necessary as long as the sum count of PDC is lower than a buffer. (The sum count of requested PDC samples is not shown anywhere). I suppose Reaper will correct this by imposing an appropriate delay before mixing the tracks. (It should be rather easy to test this but I did not do that, yet.)

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 08-19-2019 at 07:24 AM.
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Old 08-18-2019, 06:54 AM   #16
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Hi mschnell I downloaded the +/- delay from ReaPack.

your right! that the plugin functions correctly and only adds a second buffer when the delay reaches a size that a second one is needed.

But this is not the problem. try setting +/- delay on the left and right channels to -1 spls and u get an extra buffer as expected right? now copy and paste this plugin 10 times in the same fx chain and u will see the problem.

rather than having one buffer that the 10 samples of delay fit into you get 10 full buffers! for just 10 samples of delay!

this happens across the board with all major plugin developers its not a case of pdc not being reported properly.

not being able to write and mix a track in low latency because you added a few 4 sample delayed plugins from softube/waves/plugin alliance/soundtoys is pretty nuts! im going to have to assume its a bug as Fabian is the only person ive seen confirm this so far and I cant find anything else about it on forums
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Old 08-18-2019, 10:34 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enroe View Post
Ooops. I doubt this. Because if you put three fx in series
then the delays must add up.

Usually you put fx here and there on tracks, and fx on different
tracks are not in series, instead they are parallel, so they don't
add up regarding pdc-delay times.
Thanks for responding. Your right the delays should add up and normally they in paralell across many tracks but thats not the problem here

The problem is in series on the same track every plugin with pdc adds a full buffer even if its just 1-7 samples. Reaper doesnt attempt to fit plugins within a buffer.

So u get a situation where at 256 buffer size u can add 5 plugins with 4 samples of delay each and you end up with 1280 pdc on the track.

This doesnt happen on other daws as far as i can tell.

Please try this out for youself and hopefully tell me im an idiot and have missed some basic setting! My fingers are crossed
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Old 08-18-2019, 10:49 AM   #18
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Coming from Ableton I'm just happy that we can add heavy latency plugins before something like LFO Tool without breaking the sync and having to manually adjust the offset lol.

I haven't really noticed anything strange though and I use lots of latent plugins in my projects.
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Old 08-18-2019, 12:19 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puddi View Post
Coming from Ableton I'm just happy that we can add heavy latency plugins before something like LFO Tool without breaking the sync and having to manually adjust the offset lol.

I haven't really noticed anything strange though and I use lots of latent plugins in my projects.
your making me feel like a spoiled child that doesn't appreciate what hes got now !!!

your right it is great that PDC in reaper actually works. In fact everything in reaper is pretty rock solid. maybe im being a bit picky trying to write/mix in low latency!

there is a but.........

ableton despite its bad history does appear to have sorted most of its pdc issues in version 10. It does not stack full buffers for 4 sample plugins like reaper does now.

in fact all of the following daws dont have this issue.....

Bitwig (my current main writing daw)
cubase
pro tools
fl studio
studio 1
ableton
maybe most other daws?

If you using lots of high latency plugins like you say then this is defiantly going to be a non-issue for you. its only with plugins that should have almost no delay but end up giving you quite a hefty unexpected stack of latency

nothing strange or odd happens here its just u will get a buffer of 1280+ instead of 256 which to be fair im sure many people will not notice. Its only when playing in midi part live that your gonna notice some lag and sluggish response

personally i find it pretty dramatic but who knows maybe im just a sensitive guy?!

for me 256 buffer is best compromise for playing "live" and using lots of heavy mix processing without drop outs. I also avoid heavy latency plugs till final mixing
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Old 08-18-2019, 12:45 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dissentuk View Post
your making me feel like a spoiled child that doesn't appreciate what hes got now !!!

your right it is great that PDC in reaper actually works. In fact everything in reaper is pretty rock solid. maybe im being a bit picky trying to write/mix in low latency!

there is a but.........

ableton despite its bad history does appear to have sorted most of its pdc issues in version 10. It does not stack full buffers for 4 sample plugins like reaper does now.

in fact all of the following daws dont have this issue.....

Bitwig (my current main writing daw)
cubase
pro tools
fl studio
studio 1
ableton
maybe most other daws?

If you using lots of high latency plugins like you say then this is defiantly going to be a non-issue for you. its only with plugins that should have almost no delay but end up giving you quite a hefty unexpected stack of latency

nothing strange or odd happens here its just u will get a buffer of 1280+ instead of 256 which to be fair im sure many people will not notice. Its only when playing in midi part live that your gonna notice some lag and sluggish response

personally i find it pretty dramatic but who knows maybe im just a sensitive guy?!

for me 256 buffer is best compromise for playing "live" and using lots of heavy mix processing without drop outs. I also avoid heavy latency plugs till final mixing
Gotcha. Yeah, I also try to stay away from latent plugins for as long as I can and lately I've tried running my interface at 32 samples which is working surprisingly well lol.

Nevertheless any improvements to the PDC is welcome in my book.
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Old 08-18-2019, 01:24 PM   #21
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32 samples and its working good puddi? thats great seems like audio interfaces/drivers and cpus are definitely getting better nowadays! Probaly time for me to upgrade soon I think.....

just a quick question do you have any softube/waves/pluginAlliance/soundtoys plugins?
just wanted you to check if same thing is happening to you.

you just find a plugin with 1-10 samples of delay (most softube plugs) and copy and paste it 5 times on a single track, and check performance monitor to show you how much latency is on that track.

If you dont have time no problems thanks!
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Old 08-19-2019, 02:35 AM   #22
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Quote:
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32 samples and its working good puddi? thats great seems like audio interfaces/drivers and cpus are definitely getting better nowadays! Probaly time for me to upgrade soon I think.....
I like it because automation with third-party plugins is so tight with such a short buffer size. Can't use it with any heavy plugins though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dissentuk View Post
just a quick question do you have any softube/waves/pluginAlliance/soundtoys plugins?
just wanted you to check if same thing is happening to you.

you just find a plugin with 1-10 samples of delay (most softube plugs) and copy and paste it 5 times on a single track, and check performance monitor to show you how much latency is on that track.

If you dont have time no problems thanks!
I couldn't really find a plugin with 1-10 samples of delay but I tried the Waves L2 limiter which has 64 samples and when I duplicated it 4 times I got the same results as you, for example at 1024 buffer = 4096 spls. This is what the Reaper manual says about PDC:

Quote:
The latency for any track is displayed in
the bottom left corner of that track's FX chain window. For example, a
display of 256/512 spls would mean that one of the FX requires a
latency of 256 samples: REAPER rounds this up to a number of blocks
based on your buffer size.
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Old 08-19-2019, 07:28 AM   #23
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now copy and paste this plugin 10 times in the same fx chain and u will see the problem. rather than having one buffer that the 10 samples of delay fit into you get 10 full buffers! for just 10 samples of delay!
That is exactly what I did before writing that post. But I don't know in what way the redundant buffers do any harm (or if they do exist at all, maybe just the displayed number is erroneous). They should not affect the rendering result.

I tested that multiple negative +/- delay instances indeed to result in a negative delay with the sum of all of the, notwithstanding the number shown right of the "/".

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 08-19-2019 at 07:57 AM.
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Old 08-19-2019, 07:31 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puddi View Post
I couldn't really find a plugin with 1-10 samples of delay
You can use the +/delay in the ReaJS VST.

-Michael
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Old 08-19-2019, 07:33 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puddi View Post
..."REAPER rounds this up to a number of blocks
based on your buffer size. "
The text does not say if the displayed number is rounded up or the actual negative delay imposed onto the track.
-Michael
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Old 08-20-2019, 08:01 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
I tested that multiple negative +/- delay instances indeed to result in a negative delay with the sum of all of the, notwithstanding the number shown right of the "/".
That test had been done in a "Live" project (Reaper in stop mode and using an Oscillator as a test source).

Now I did another test with the test signal recorded to a file and Reaper in play mode.

Same result. (the effect is as desired, no Idea what the number behind the "/" exactly is supposed to mean).

-Michael
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Old 08-20-2019, 02:16 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
That is exactly what I did before writing that post. But I don't know in what way the redundant buffers do any harm (or if they do exist at all, maybe just the displayed number is erroneous). They should not affect the rendering result.

I tested that multiple negative +/- delay instances indeed to result in a negative delay with the sum of all of the, notwithstanding the number shown right of the "/".

-Michael
Hi Michael thanks for checking this out. Im not fully sure what you mean when you say redundant buffers.

if you mean the buffer being 1280 instead of 256 because its just displayed wrong and everything still working then I belive thats not the case. Everything is still synced up and PDC is perfect for rendering audio etc but the extra buffers are real anc causing latency on any vsti played live with midi.


if you want to confirm this out for yourself set ur buffer to 256 and play raw sine sawtooth vsti patch and see how it responds. pretty normal latency and plays fine right?

now try adding one ReaJS +/delay and making the the delay -40 samples.
You get 256 buffer and your synth still responds and plays good right?


Now instead of -40 samples make a +/delay with -1 sample and copy and paste it 40 times! and now you PDC for track will say 10,240 and now the synth isnt responding so fast right?


This is an exaggeration to make it obvious to you but any over daw would give u a 256 buffer for 40 vsts with 1 sample delay not a 10,240 one. so ive gotta assume this is a bug right?
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Old 08-20-2019, 02:21 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puddi View Post
I like it because automation with third-party plugins is so tight with such a short buffer size. Can't use it with any heavy plugins though.



I couldn't really find a plugin with 1-10 samples of delay but I tried the Waves L2 limiter which has 64 samples and when I duplicated it 4 times I got the same results as you, for example at 1024 buffer = 4096 spls. This is what the Reaper manual says about PDC:
Ah great that really helps much appreciated! so you have the same issue. It just doesn't cause you any problems!

so far 3 people confirming this. still not a lot but probably enough to start bringing it up in the bug section of the forums as it does not seem to be a problem with my setup
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Old 08-20-2019, 10:39 PM   #29
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Quote:
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Im not fully sure what you mean when you say redundant buffers.
If you (Reaper) want to do a negative delay of - say - 2 samples with a buffer size of 1024 you could do either of

- Negative delay of 1 buffer then impose a delay of 1022 samples
- Negative delay of 2 buffer then impose a delay of 1023 samples with each of them
The result would be the same.

In run mode the first would be done by reading the media by two buffers ahead and the second by reading it two buffers ahead
in stop mode it would be done in delaying all other tracks by one or two buffers respectively.

Hence the first option is better, but usually not critical.

-Michael
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Old 08-21-2019, 01:05 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
If you (Reaper) want to do a negative delay of - say - 2 samples with a buffer size of 1024 you could do either of

- Negative delay of 1 buffer then impose a delay of 1022 samples
- Negative delay of 2 buffer then impose a delay of 1023 samples with each of them
The result would be the same.

In run mode the first would be done by reading the media by two buffers ahead and the second by reading it two buffers ahead
in stop mode it would be done in delaying all other tracks by one or two buffers respectively.

Hence the first option is better, but usually not critical.

-Michael
Forgive me its not so easy for me to understand what you are saying here.

Are you confirming with option 2 that having 2 seperate delays with one sample will need 2 buffers(not fit into one buffer)

And if so are you saying this is normal behaviour and not a bug?

Did you get a chance to do the synth test i said above and see the latency?

Thanks
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Old 08-21-2019, 07:56 AM   #31
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It's not a bug: the result is exactly as desired.

I did a "synth" test by testing an audio signal generated by a synth plugin and using a plugin the requests a (configurable) PDC .

I don't understand what the number behind the "/" is supposed to mean. I confirmed that it does not influence the audio.

I don't see why using two buffers plus a delay of 1023 each should make sense while using a single buffer and a delay of 1022 yields the same result. But it does not do any harm, either. Ad I don't know what Reaper indered does.

-Michael
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Old 08-21-2019, 11:33 AM   #32
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It's not a bug: the result is exactly as desired.

I did a "synth" test by testing an audio signal generated by a synth plugin and using a plugin the requests a (configurable) PDC .

I don't understand what the number behind the "/" is supposed to mean. I confirmed that it does not influence the audio.

I don't see why using two buffers plus a delay of 1023 each should make sense while using a single buffer and a delay of 1022 yields the same result. But it does not do any harm, either. Ad I don't know what Reaper indered does.

-Michael
call me crazy but I feel like we are going round in circles here. I believe we are still talking about completely different things in every post.

The purpose of the synth test was not to generate/render an audio signal and look for latency etc There is nothing wrong with how reaper handles PDC when its comes to rendering or influencing the timing or rendering of midi clips

It was solely done to show you the latency buffers from stacking lots of 1 sample delay plugins are real! and cause latency on the "Live" response of a vsti when playing midi notes in "Live"

you cannot render a midi clip of a synth or render a sound generator(I dont know if this is what you did?). We are only talking about Vsti latency when playing midi input "Live" on keyboard. nothing else

2bh all I am trying to achieve here is getting people to repeat the behaviour and confirm its happening and then move onto if its a bug, if it matters, if the delay is real etc


I know you've put time into this and I really do appreciate that!. The one final thing that would be incredibly helpful is if you could just follow these 3 steps exactly as stated and confirm what comes up.....


1. start project with 1024 global buffer settting

2. place 4 separate +/delay in series on 1 track with left and right channel spls set to -1

3.open performance monitor and confirm that PDC on that track says 4096



I hope this does not come across as aggressive as im really just trying to get to the bottom of my problem because I really want to make reaper my main daw for everything and this is only thing stopping me!
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Old 08-21-2019, 12:37 PM   #33
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This seems depends on the plugin and some other factors. For example stacking four instances of FabF Pro-Q3 in natural phase (360 pdc) casues 360x4 samples pdc.

Try turning Anticipative FX off/on, on that time delay plugin track and see what happens. (right click, track performance)
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Old 08-21-2019, 12:53 PM   #34
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This seems depends on the plugin and some other factors. For example stacking four instances of FabF Pro-Q3 in natural phase (360 pdc) casues 360x4 samples pdc.

Try turning Anticipative FX off/on, on that time delay plugin track and see what happens. (right click, track performance)
Just tried this. if I stack 4 instances of pro-q3 natural phase it also reports 360pdc for each instance within the plugin window as expected but still have the problem of 4096 PDC total on the track itself if my global buffer is set to 1024

you had me all excited when you said to turn off anticipative Fx on the track! I was like IS THIS IT CAN IT BE! but no didnt do anything damn......

thanks for trying. do you get same result as me by the way? 4096 on track doing same thing I just did?
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Old 08-21-2019, 01:00 PM   #35
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We are only talking about Vsti latency
I suppose by "VSTi latency" you mean the latency a VST instrument might impose between receiving a Midi note and the start of the appropriate sound output.

This of course is entirely up to the plugin.

I don't know if for this a PDC mechanism like for Audio filter VSTs is defined (which would mean that the VSTi is required to to provide a value to the DAW to have it act accordingly).

-Michael

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Old 08-21-2019, 01:18 PM   #36
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I suppose by "VSTI latency you mean the latency a VST instrument might impose between receiving a Midi note and the start of the appropriate sound output.

This of course is entirely up to the pluigin.

I don't know if for this a PDC mechanism like for Auidio filter VSTs is defined (which would mean that the VSTi is required to to provide a value to the DAW to have it act accordingly).

-Michael
We are on exactly the same page now!

I wouldn't take the latency of the vsti into account though! as this will avoid my actual problem

Just assume we are using reaSYNTH or massive/kontakt, any vsti with 0 delay compensation needed just uses the projects global audio buffer


basicly the performance monitor on every track is correct and on a project with 1024 global buffer you can have a track with 10,240 PDC because u stacked 10 plugins each using 1 sample of delay

and key thing here....... The vsti synth will play and respond to live midi input as if you have set your global buffer to 10,240 with noticeable latency

It doesnt have to be on same track as VSTi also, u can have 0 PDC synth and 10,240 random unused track. all project will perform as if its on 10,240 buffer


Also just to bring it back up, no other daws with PDC do this. they all fit the effects nicely together into one buffer not 10 seperate buffers
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Old 08-21-2019, 01:18 PM   #37
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Just tried this. if I stack 4 instances of pro-q3 natural phase it also reports 360pdc for each instance within the plugin window as expected but still have the problem of 4096 PDC total on the track itself if my global buffer is set to 1024
Does not happen here. I get 320x4 = 1280 samples PDC.
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Old 08-21-2019, 01:30 PM   #38
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Does not happen here. I get 320x4 = 1280 samples PDC.
ah interesting your the first person who has tried it here and not got the same thing

what have you done that the other 3 have not?

just a few questions?

what global buffer is that project on?

where are you reading the 1280 samples PDC from?

and can you post a screen shot of the performance monitor of that track?

I will post up one of mine to show what im getting

thanks
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Old 08-21-2019, 01:55 PM   #39
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Old 08-21-2019, 02:11 PM   #40
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Sure.

1st track = 4 x Pro Q3.
2nd track = 1 x Pro-Q3
3rd track = 4 x Channel Time Delayer at -2ms.

Buffer is 512.

Thing is, I think this is quite complex and I guess Justin will have to chime in, in order for you to get some clarity here.
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