Old 03-01-2010, 06:52 PM   #1
Deltones
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Default Mixing in mono and pan law

I started the habit of mixing in mono. Turn off one speaker and my sub and just go with one speaker. I kinda like the process. But I might have hit a snafu and before I cause any more damage, I'd like some good opinions.

When I started mixing in mono, all my pan knobs were at the center position, on every track. I reached a good balance and I was pretty happy with the result, and switched to stereo. Fired up the other speaker and sub and made adjustments with panning and started to get happy with the result.

I went back to mono to check the current mix, again turning off one speaker and the sub. And that's where it all went to hell. When my balance in mono was good when my pan knobs were all dead center before switching to stereo, now it's all screwed up, and without exactly understanding all the subtleties, I suspect that the default Reaper pan law might be the cause.

So:

1) When mixing in mono, should I adjust the pan knobs where I envision the tracks to be when I switch in stereo? Or the center position was fine in the first place, but the default pan law for mono mixing was wrong?

2) If the center position was fine for mixing in mono, but the default pan law was wrong, what's the correct pan law for mono mixing? And I imagine that when switching to stereo, pan law would need to be reajusted?
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Old 03-01-2010, 07:13 PM   #2
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What's the point in mixing on just one speaker?


I always use -3dB pan law for mono tracks and 0dB for stereo tracks/folders/busses ...
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Old 03-01-2010, 08:14 PM   #3
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How's it sound if you set the default pan law to -3. That one sounded the closest for me. Monitor in mono, test a pan law by panning in mono to see if it gets louder/softer. The pan law that changes level the least or none when panning in mono might be just the one you need. Not sure though, it was a quick test.

Karbo

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Old 03-01-2010, 09:20 PM   #4
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what about using the mono mixdown button on the main mix before turning off one speaker
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Old 03-01-2010, 09:32 PM   #5
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I started the habit of mixing in mono. Turn off one speaker and my sub and just go with one speaker. I kinda like the process. But I might have hit a snafu and before I cause any more damage, I'd like some good opinions.

When I started mixing in mono, all my pan knobs were at the center position, on every track. I reached a good balance and I was pretty happy with the result, and switched to stereo. Fired up the other speaker and sub and made adjustments with panning and started to get happy with the result.

I went back to mono to check the current mix, again turning off one speaker and the sub. And that's where it all went to hell. When my balance in mono was good when my pan knobs were all dead center before switching to stereo, now it's all screwed up, and without exactly understanding all the subtleties, I suspect that the default Reaper pan law might be the cause.

So:

1) When mixing in mono, should I adjust the pan knobs where I envision the tracks to be when I switch in stereo? Or the center position was fine in the first place, but the default pan law for mono mixing was wrong?

2) If the center position was fine for mixing in mono, but the default pan law was wrong, what's the correct pan law for mono mixing? And I imagine that when switching to stereo, pan law would need to be reajusted?
That's not how you check the mono mix, unless you're leaving something out.

When you mix in mono with all pan set to center (which I also like to do), you have only one output signal. When you then make a stereo mix, you have two output signals: some of it is being sent to the left channel, and some of it is being sent to the right signal. IF you then simply "turn off" one speaker, you're not hearing a mono folddown of the mix, rather, you're only hearing one of the two signals.

Forgive me if the above is stating the obvious, but otherwise it's completely unclear from your post what you're doing to get a mono sum of the two stereo channels.

PS- don't pan in mono.
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Old 03-01-2010, 11:14 PM   #6
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To add to what Yep said.

After you have made the stereo mix you would need to sum it to mono, not turn off one speaker. Turning off one speaker on a stereo mix throws away one side of the sound, which is no longer symmetrical as it was when it was a mono mix.

I don't know if pan law even enters into this unless you change the levels when you finally do the stereo panning.
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Old 03-02-2010, 12:13 AM   #7
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Checking your mix in mono these days is not just about checking for mono capability - if you do it right, it will help your stereo mix.

A good stereo mix often sounds like ass in mono - but a great stereo mix still sounds great in mono!

To do it right, you need to downmix to mono, and also listen on a single speaker. (downmixing to mono and listening on 2 speakers just ain't right - your brain is still trying to locate stuff through delays - don't give it the chance to fool you)

Also don't touch your panning before you do this! (you downmix to mono at the master buss instead) You want to try to make some eq, and dynamic adjustments while in mono. If you can get it to work in mono - it'll probably work even better in stereo. You may decide to change some panning after some critical mono listening - no real rules here, you just sort of have to develop your own thing. If you get really good at working this way, you might make a few panning decisions based just on how it works in mono. Playing with the pan knobs while in mono can really change the tone or feel of what you are hearing. I'm not at that point, I just use mono to help me work out things that are competing for the same space in a mix - without leaning on that stereo crutch to help me out.


For example I will always try (operative word "try") to work out the relationship between the kick and the bass in mono - on one speaker - even if they are just panned up the middle anyways. It's just a different way of focusing- forcing your brain to stop trying to figure out "where" and just concentrate on how it sounds.

Or...

If I'm having trouble with the vocal not cutting through that really "awesome" wall of double tracked and hard panned electric guitars and keys, switch into mono and get the balance right. When you switch back, it might fall apart a little, but you'll have a better idea of how to fix the problem.

I don't really think there is a "right" pan law - it's just helpful to be consistent and to know the differences. Even a great sounding Neve and a SSL board will have different pan laws - (not that I've ever mixed on either.. ha ha)
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Old 03-02-2010, 01:35 AM   #8
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that's how I use to mix in mono:

1 - make a rough mix in stereo, panning each instrument the way you like more, build up your panorama (two guitars L&R, Keyboard 1 L, Keyboard 2 R, vocal center, bass center, etc.) without any eq, with the exception of some eq to get rid of unwanted noise (cleaning up your tracks)

2 - apply your efx (delay, reverb, chorus, etc) while you're still listening in stereo, if you like it

3 - turn the master bus in mono, don't move your pans, and try to get the best from any single instrument tweaking the volume fader and eq and efx until you can hear everything in your mix at the right level.

3 - turn back your mix to stereo and double check it.

not sure if it's a good way for mono compatibility checking (I actually listen to both my monitors even in mono mode), but it's the only way I can get a good result in terms of spacial setting, even by earphones

most ot time it works fine to me
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Old 03-02-2010, 04:39 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
what about using the mono mixdown button on the main mix before turning off one speaker
I do both.
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Old 03-02-2010, 04:50 AM   #10
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That's not how you check the mono mix, unless you're leaving something out.

When you mix in mono with all pan set to center (which I also like to do), you have only one output signal. When you then make a stereo mix, you have two output signals: some of it is being sent to the left channel, and some of it is being sent to the right signal. IF you then simply "turn off" one speaker, you're not hearing a mono folddown of the mix, rather, you're only hearing one of the two signals.

Forgive me if the above is stating the obvious, but otherwise it's completely unclear from your post what you're doing to get a mono sum of the two stereo channels.

PS- don't pan in mono.
Alright, I thought it was pretty clear from the accepted procedure that you turn on the mono button (L+R) before going at it with one speaker. That's why I didn't mention it in the original post. But yeah, I turned on the mono button before mixing in mono with one speaker

However, this doesn't change the fact that I had a nice mix (with all my pan fader at center) in mono, and that after my panning adjustments (and minimal level adjustments in stereo), when I went back to check in mono (again, one speaker and mono button on), the mix crashed to the ground.

As a test, I brought one pan fader back to center during my intro and there it was, the mix made sense again (there was an increase in volume when moving the pan fader back to center).

So that's why I'm wondering if I should change the default pan law when mixing in mono, and go back to the Reaper default pan law when going at it in stereo. So that they both make sense, whichever way you're checking your mix.

Last edited by Deltones; 03-02-2010 at 04:59 AM.
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Old 03-02-2010, 04:56 AM   #11
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What's the point in mixing on just one speaker?


I always use -3dB pan law for mono tracks and 0dB for stereo tracks/folders/busses ...
The point is that I have to work a little bit harder to get a mix where everything blends well together, but boy does it bring a smile to your face when you switch to stereo.

Your second line confuses me a little bit. Unless I'm mistaken, you have a project-wide pan law in Reaper, not a track-based pan law. So what's this thing about using two different pan laws depending on the type of tracks?
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Old 03-02-2010, 05:03 AM   #12
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What's the point in mixing on just one speaker?


I always use -3dB pan law for mono tracks and 0dB for stereo tracks/folders/busses ...
I know one purpose: Start mixing in mono with all tracks dead-center helps in finding the appropriate space in frequency for each instrument. If you can hear all instruments loud and clear under these circumstances your EQing must be right (for separation purpose, at least).
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Old 03-02-2010, 05:15 AM   #13
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I know one purpose: Start mixing in mono with all tracks dead-center helps in finding the appropriate space in frequency for each instrument. If you can hear all instruments loud and clear under these circumstances your EQing must be right (for separation purpose, at least).
You got that right.
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Old 03-02-2010, 07:07 AM   #14
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Unless I'm mistaken, you have a project-wide pan law in Reaper, not a track-based pan law. So what's this thing about using two different pan laws depending on the type of tracks?
Right-click the pan fader and you can set it per track.
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Old 03-02-2010, 07:39 AM   #15
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You can even set it per send by right clicking the send pan!
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Old 03-02-2010, 09:21 AM   #16
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Checking your mix in mono these days is not just about checking for mono capability - if you do it right, it will help your stereo mix.

A good stereo mix often sounds like ass in mono - but a great stereo mix still sounds great in mono!

To do it right, you need to downmix to mono, and also listen on a single speaker. (downmixing to mono and listening on 2 speakers just ain't right - your brain is still trying to locate stuff through delays - don't give it the chance to fool you)

Also don't touch your panning before you do this! (you downmix to mono at the master buss instead) You want to try to make some eq, and dynamic adjustments while in mono. If you can get it to work in mono - it'll probably work even better in stereo. You may decide to change some panning after some critical mono listening - no real rules here, you just sort of have to develop your own thing. If you get really good at working this way, you might make a few panning decisions based just on how it works in mono. Playing with the pan knobs while in mono can really change the tone or feel of what you are hearing. I'm not at that point, I just use mono to help me work out things that are competing for the same space in a mix - without leaning on that stereo crutch to help me out.


For example I will always try (operative word "try") to work out the relationship between the kick and the bass in mono - on one speaker - even if they are just panned up the middle anyways. It's just a different way of focusing- forcing your brain to stop trying to figure out "where" and just concentrate on how it sounds.

Or...

If I'm having trouble with the vocal not cutting through that really "awesome" wall of double tracked and hard panned electric guitars and keys, switch into mono and get the balance right. When you switch back, it might fall apart a little, but you'll have a better idea of how to fix the problem.

I don't really think there is a "right" pan law - it's just helpful to be consistent and to know the differences. Even a great sounding Neve and a SSL board will have different pan laws - (not that I've ever mixed on either.. ha ha)

Excellent post, James.
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Old 03-02-2010, 04:17 PM   #17
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Also don't touch your panning before you do this! (you downmix to mono at the master buss instead) You want to try to make some eq, and dynamic adjustments while in mono. If you can get it to work in mono - it'll probably work even better in stereo. You may decide to change some panning after some critical mono listening - no real rules here, you just sort of have to develop your own thing. If you get really good at working this way, you might make a few panning decisions based just on how it works in mono. Playing with the pan knobs while in mono can really change the tone or feel of what you are hearing. I'm not at that point, I just use mono to help me work out things that are competing for the same space in a mix - without leaning on that stereo crutch to help me out.
James,

But the thing is, I had all my pan knobs at center when I made the mix in mono and was pretty happy with the result. It's when I switched to stereo to ajust my mix and pan my instruments, and some levels slightly, THEN went back to check the result in mono on one speaker that I was like huh? Didn't sound right anymore with the tracks panned to were they belonged in stereo when re-checking the mix in mono. Should I just ignore that?

That's why I asked if there was a different pan law needed when mixing in mono: To make sure that if you check your mix in stereo, or in mono with only one speaker, the levels will follow suit.
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Old 03-02-2010, 04:20 PM   #18
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Should I just ignore that?
Pretty much. Large majority uses stereo setups for listening ...
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Old 03-02-2010, 04:24 PM   #19
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How's it sound if you set the default pan law to -3. That one sounded the closest for me. Monitor in mono, test a pan law by panning in mono to see if it gets louder/softer. The pan law that changes level the least or none when panning in mono might be just the one you need. Not sure though, it was a quick test.

Karbo
Yeah, I just did a quick check by changing my project pan law to -3dB instead of the default +0.0. In mono at least, the change in volume is a lot less offensive when I panned from left to right. I could go with this, but will a stereo mix that's been done with a pan law of -3dB instead of 0 translate well outside of the mix session, and on other systems?
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Old 03-02-2010, 06:41 PM   #20
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Yeah, I just did a quick check by changing my project pan law to -3dB instead of the default +0.0. In mono at least, the change in volume is a lot less offensive when I panned from left to right. I could go with this, but will a stereo mix that's been done with a pan law of -3dB instead of 0 translate well outside of the mix session, and on other systems?
What you hear is what you'll render. I would try it by mixing awhile in mono, switch to stereo, make some adjusments, switch back to mono and see what happens. All the -3db setting does is keep the source at about the same level regardless of position. There's always going to be a trade-off somewhere but this is a good place to start IMHO. At -3db you should be able to visually pan some items while in mono that you know are going to be panned in the stereo mix and not be too disappointed when switching between the two. I'm not 100% on this but it should get you started for what I think you want to do. Btw... any mono tests I do are by hitting the mono switch on the mixer interface for my sound card, I don't use reaper for the mono part, I don't think that's the place it should be done unless there is no other choice.

Karbo
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Old 03-02-2010, 09:43 PM   #21
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The pan law won't affect playback on any system.
Once the mix is set up and rendered to a finished 2 track, it is what it is. The playback system doesn't see the mix settings.

If you load your tracks into a different daw that is set to a different pan law then it will sound different.
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Old 03-02-2010, 11:40 PM   #22
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James,

But the thing is, I had all my pan knobs at center when I made the mix in mono and was pretty happy with the result. It's when I switched to stereo to ajust my mix and pan my instruments, and some levels slightly, THEN went back to check the result in mono on one speaker that I was like huh? Didn't sound right anymore with the tracks panned to were they belonged in stereo when re-checking the mix in mono. Should I just ignore that?

That's why I asked if there was a different pan law needed when mixing in mono: To make sure that if you check your mix in stereo, or in mono with only one speaker, the levels will follow suit.

Well, -3 db will lead to less surprises when you switch back and forth. But there isn't anything technically wrong with any particular law.

-3 db is a good starting point simply because a doubling of power leads to a +3 increase in db. So -3 db keeps the stuff in the middle from being twice as loud as the stuff on the sides when we sum to mono.

This is frequency dependent however as our ears are more sensitive to sounds in the range of human speech. (Which is why we like to rock out with the smiley face EQ - but don't do that! lol) So be extra attentive when panning tubas and tin whistles when your mixing for AM radio :P - happens everyday right? lol
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Old 03-03-2010, 04:54 AM   #23
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Well, -3 db will lead to less surprises when you switch back and forth. But there isn't anything technically wrong with any particular law.

-3 db is a good starting point simply because a doubling of power leads to a +3 increase in db. So -3 db keeps the stuff in the middle from being twice as loud as the stuff on the sides when we sum to mono.

This is frequency dependent however as our ears are more sensitive to sounds in the range of human speech. (Which is why we like to rock out with the smiley face EQ - but don't do that! lol) So be extra attentive when panning tubas and tin whistles when your mixing for AM radio :P - happens everyday right? lol
Well, excellent. It looks like a -3dB pan law is what I need then.

Thanks to all for the comments

Last edited by Deltones; 03-03-2010 at 04:23 PM.
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Old 02-20-2019, 10:16 AM   #24
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I hate waste, so I'm resurrecting this thread.

I'm been trying to "mix in mono" using bx_solo and headphones, but I don't hear any difference when I engage the plugin or click the Mono button on Reaper's master track. I know I've heard a difference before. Is mine broken?

Using headphones, I hear zero change with any of the options in bx_solo. The mono-stereo knob changes slightly as I rotate it, but it's still quite faint.
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:10 PM   #25
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I hate waste, so I'm resurrecting this thread.

I'm been trying to "mix in mono" using bx_solo and headphones, but I don't hear any difference when I engage the plugin or click the Mono button on Reaper's master track. I know I've heard a difference before. Is mine broken?

Using headphones, I hear zero change with any of the options in bx_solo. The mono-stereo knob changes slightly as I rotate it, but it's still quite faint.
First test that you hear yourself panning a single track in an empty project with no plugins or mono button engaged.
If that works try the BX again and check if you still hear panning.
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Old 02-21-2019, 11:14 AM   #26
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First test that you hear yourself panning a single track in an empty project with no plugins or mono button engaged.
If that works try the BX again and check if you still hear panning.
A. It works.

B. BX doesn't.

It probably the new routing/grouping I'm experimenting with. (Or I've got a nicely balanced mixed with only a few really wide fx. This is far less likely lol.)
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Old 02-21-2019, 12:10 PM   #27
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A. It works.

B. BX doesn't.

(Or I've got a nicely balanced mixed with only a few really wide fx. This is far less likely lol.)
Don't understand....if you're testing as I asked there is no mix....you're just panning a single mono track fully left and right....right?

If panning of a track works but stops working as soon as you add BX solo on that track insert then the plug is not working.

If you're inserting somewhere else in this unexplained experimental routing then who knows.
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Old 02-21-2019, 12:16 PM   #28
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Don't understand....if you're testing as I asked there is no mix....you're just panning a single mono track fully left and right....right?

If panning of a track works but stops working as soon as you add BX solo on that track insert then the plug is not working.

If you're inserting somewhere else in this unexplained experimental routing then who knows.
Well, I used my reference track (which is stereo) to pan fully left and right. It worked fine.

I placed bx on the same track and tried all the settings and heard basically nothing. So strange.
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Old 02-21-2019, 12:49 PM   #29
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If you click on Solo L you here the Left channel on both speaker, if you click Solo R you hear the right channel on both speakers, if you select Solo M you hear the Mid Signal on both Speakers, if you select Solo S you hear the Side Signal on both speakers.
I think you misunderstood the Plugin.
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Old 02-21-2019, 01:37 PM   #30
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If you click on Solo L you here the Left channel on both speaker, if you click Solo R you hear the right channel on both speakers, if you select Solo M you hear the Mid Signal on both Speakers, if you select Solo S you hear the Side Signal on both speakers.
I think you misunderstood the Plugin.
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I might've misunderstood, this makes sense. I expected to hear an audible narrowing or widening. Danke shoen!
Give 'r (as we say in rural Ontario).
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