2 ?'s 1. RE: Vocal Dynamic Processing 2. Track Voume

[sjs94704]

QUESTION #1 - Vocal Dynamic Processing:
I watch lots of Kenny Gioia videos and he has demonstrated how to use the volume envelope as well as taking the vocal track (s) and splitting them up phrase by phrase and adjusting the volume that way to get the volume of a vocal track (s) to be as uniform as possible.

Your thoughts, opinions? Experiences with this that work best for you?

QUESTION #2 - Track Volume Control:
TOD was gracious enough to make me a great template for my songs to work with, BUT, I get confused sometimes as to which plugin to use in the event that I have to control the track volume via a plugin, which one is best for that purpose?

volume plugin, gain, or compressor?

I am in the process of picking out approx 20 songs (karaoke) out of the 150 that I have and will be getting into lots of recording with vocals. So, I would like to spend my time processing the vocals in the most efficient meaningful way.

I say 20 songs because that is how many I can post publicly at one time with the copyrite holders permission.

I would be grateful for your input .......

[ramses]

I would suggest that 99% of the time, when dealing with vocal levels in a mix, what you'd reach for first is a compressor. Learning how to compress vocals to fit in a mix is a challenge, it will take time to master, years probably, or decades.

That said. If you want to simply increase or decrease the level of the vocal in the mix (this is different from compressing the vocal), you could do this any number of ways, the most intuitive being just resorting to the track fader / volume knob.

[jrk]

Depends on the vocal & the context, but typically:
Compression first (like ramses says) then automation on the volume (fader) for any additional pushing and pulling.

Get it sounding fairly even, then you can ride it (well, obv, better to automate it) as required*. Saves years :-)


* this can be as detailed as you want, phrases, words, syllables, even

[serr]

Originally Posted by sjs94704

QUESTION #1 - Vocal Dynamic Processing:
I watch lots of Kenny Gioia videos and he has demonstrated how to use the volume envelope as well as taking the vocal track (s) and splitting them up phrase by phrase and adjusting the volume that way to get the volume of a vocal track (s) to be as uniform as possible.

Your thoughts, opinions? Experiences with this that work best for you?

The 2nd thing (film style "clip gain" adjustments) initially to catch any extreme quiet or too loud parts. The first thing (volume envelope) if needed after that and for any fiddly parts that need to ramp up or down or whatever little subtle finesse of level.

Originally Posted by sjs94704

QUESTION #2 - Track Volume Control:
TOD was gracious enough to make me a great template for my songs to work with, BUT, I get confused sometimes as to which plugin to use in the event that I have to control the track volume via a plugin, which one is best for that purpose?

volume plugin, gain, or compressor?

I am in the process of picking out approx 20 songs (karaoke) out of the 150 that I have and will be getting into lots of recording with vocals. So, I would like to spend my time processing the vocals in the most efficient meaningful way.

I say 20 songs because that is how many I can post publicly at one time with the copyrite holders permission.

I would be grateful for your input .......

I wouldn't prefer to control a level of something with a volume control in a plugin. That's a PITA to me. I split any parallel elements to their own track so I can simply control volumes with the track faders for ease of mixing.

An obvious example would be a reverb on a separate track vs a reverb in line on the same track as a vocal. With it in-line on the same track, you need to adjust the wet/dry balance and then follow that by re-adjusting the overall track level. That just makes smoke pour out of my ears instantly! I want to be able to adjust my dry vocal to a proper level and then add the reverb element at a proper level with its own track fader - and not have doing that alter the dry level (as the balance knob scenario does).

If I want a single control for that submix (vocal + reverb), I'll route to a bus track to do just that. But those initial tracks have to stay separate for my sanity.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by sjs94704

QUESTION #1 - Vocal Dynamic Processing:
I watch lots of Kenny Gioia videos and he has demonstrated how to use the volume envelope as well as taking the vocal track (s) and splitting them up phrase by phrase and adjusting the volume that way to get the volume of a vocal track (s) to be as uniform as possible.

Your thoughts, opinions? Experiences with this that work best for you?

Hi Steven, a compressor is the best processor for vocals, but it's is the hardest to setup and learn. You could try adding ReaComp
and setting it up as I show you here. The most important adjustment is the Threshold.



Also a limiter can be used if the compressor is too difficult. Here again the most important adjustment is the Threshold.

QUESTION #2 - Track Volume Control:
TOD was gracious enough to make me a great template for my songs to work with, BUT, I get confused sometimes as to which plugin to use in the event that I have to control the track volume via a plugin, which one is best for that purpose?

volume plugin, gain, or compressor?

Do not use plugins to adjust your gain. After you have setup a compressor or limiter, then use Take Volume envelops to make the final
adjustments. Here you can see how I've adjusted the Take volume envelope for 3 common things.



Also keep in mind to use the volume knobs on your vocal track and Sub Vocal track when needed.

[jrk]

Originally Posted by Tod

After you have setup a compressor or limiter, then use Take Volume envelops to make the final
adjustments.

Also keep in mind to use the volume knobs on your vocal track and Sub Vocal track when needed.

It's worth pointing out that the take volume envelope is a pre-fx thing. i.e. changes made here will affect the level hitting the compressor. This may be what you want - you may find that compression is changing the signal in a way you don't like. An example might be where compression is exaggerating sibilance or bringing up noise or something, so pulling down the signal before the compressor is just the ticket. If you're trying to to boost the signal with the take envelope then the compressor will be fighting you. (less so when when you're trying to lower the level)

Far better, IMO, is to use the compressor to get most of the way there and then use track volume for any tweaks.

I tend to use everything. Bang on some compression, pull down unwanted noises (incl sibilance perhaps) w/ the take volume, and "ride" the vocal with the track volume.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by jrk

If you're trying to to boost the signal with the take envelope then the compressor will be fighting you. (less so when when you're trying to lower the level)

Far better, IMO, is to use the compressor to get most of the way there and then use track volume for any tweaks.

Thanks jrk, but that's what I'm inferring here, and as far as fighting with the compressor, it would take a rather large change to make
the compressor sound bad or not right.

I tend to use everything. Bang on some compression, pull down unwanted noises (incl sibilance perhaps) w/ the take volume, and "ride" the vocal with the track volume.

Obviously you have a good handle on this jrk, and that's great, hopefully Steven will understand what you're saying here.

[Fergler]

My non-real time (mixing only) chain is:

EQ filter for mic stand noises, pops, etc. Gate

Long compression using ReaComp with 500rms, 250precomp and 0 attack/release (ashcat_lt magic). This catches all the parts of the song and makes them the same rough volume like a fader ride.

TriLeveler 2 after that with an appropriate target to sit gently above the other instruments.

Next an actual dynamics compressor shaping the sound if the vocal needs to be more biting and to deal with spikes from certain consonants. If needed I may go back to before the long compression and add a peak compressor there if I notice the spikes are moving the RMS target too much, now that I'm paying more attention to peaks.

Deesser if needed (airwindows deess).

If the chorus lost it's volume, now I bring it up with post-fader volume automation. I'm always working ahead of previous edits, so I don't have to go back and adjust them due to changing gain structure. The exception as already noted in this thread is item volume automation to remove or lessen particular sounds that are anomalous.

[jrk]

Originally Posted by Tod

and as far as fighting with the compressor, it would take a rather large change to make
the compressor sound bad or not right.

Sure, but what I meant was that the compressor will be trying to undo the changes you make on the take volume envelope (at least while the signal is above threshold).

Apart from all the exceptions :-D (mentioned above) You're generally far better doing this kind of fine / final level control after compression.


But of course, it's whatever works for you. And if it is working, it's right.

Apologies for not being clear.
Cheers

[Tod]

Originally Posted by jrk

Sure, but what I meant was that the compressor will be trying to undo the changes you make on the take volume envelope (at least while the signal is above threshold).

Apart from all the exceptions :-D (mentioned above) You're generally far better doing this kind of fine / final level control after compression.


But of course, it's whatever works for you. And if it is working, it's right.

Apologies for not being clear.
Cheers

No apologies needed jrk, you're absolutely right. In fact I'm the one who should apologize, because what you said is correct.

Compressors are new to Steven, which is why I posted the pictures above, and I'm just trying to keep the confusion down for him.