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02-28-2020, 05:47 PM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Right Hear
Posts: 15,618
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CC points vs envelope points
It seems odd to me that points in the trim envelope lanes appear as
unfilled circles when not selected and filled circles when selected...
and yet in the MIDI Editor, for CC lanes this scheme is reversed...
in CC lanes the points are filled when unselected and empty when selected
doesn't this seem very confusing to a user and very non consistent?
I don't see a reason for this... talking version 6.04 here
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02-29-2020, 12:19 AM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Agreed, actually!
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02-29-2020, 03:57 AM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,111
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In MIDI editor, envelope points are always filled. Selection is indicated by highlighting point edges, envelope segments and the fill area under envelope. In default theme, highlight is lighter/brighter color.
This is not consistent with track envelopes and automation items in arrange view.
MIDI editor envelopes are almost like from another application. Almost everything is inconsistent in some way. - Mouse modifiers are different
- Selection behavior is different. For example adjusting a segment will also select the segment in MIDI editor.
- LFO tool is different.
- Tooltips missing in MIDI editor.
- Curve shapes in MIDI editor, Point shapes in arrange view.
- Only one envelope point allowed at each time position in MIDI editor. This makes editing difficult and unintuitive.
- Right click menu contents is almost completely different and similar things are in different order/position.
- Righ click deletes envelope point by default in MIDI editor. Very inconsistent.
- Envelope copy-paste behavior is different. In MIDI editor, pasted segments do not overwrite existing points. This is unintuitive and annoying.
- Editing multiple selected segments is different. In arrange view you can adjust single segment even when multiple points are selected, in MIDI editor you cannot. In MIDI editor you can adjust curvature of multiple segements at the same time, in arrange view (using default modifiers) you cannot. There is a "gang selected points" option that can be customized in mouse modifiers.
jnif
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02-29-2020, 07:19 AM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,116
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...and going the other way, seems crazy to require ReaControlMIDI just to automate MIDI CCs on Arrange View, meanwhile they're natively automatable in MIDI editor. Again, just like lack of Area Selection, NO other DAW operates this way and there's seemingly no benefit/advantage to working this way other than being able to stick ReaControlMIDI between plugins -- but then have both!
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02-29-2020, 07:21 AM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif
Only one envelope point allowed at each time position in MIDI editor.
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But this is also a limitation in MIDI itself, no?
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02-29-2020, 08:16 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Paris
Posts: 544
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferropop
...and going the other way, seems crazy to require ReaControlMIDI just to automate MIDI CCs on Arrange View, meanwhile they're natively automatable in MIDI editor. Again, just like lack of Area Selection, NO other DAW operates this way and there's seemingly no benefit/advantage to working this way other than being able to stick ReaControlMIDI between plugins -- but then have both!
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Hey man when you talk about area selction, it's the possibility to select media items, midi items, and automation items, in one shot by clic and drag in the arrange view right ? treat all these things the same when it comes to selection ? Because if it is, I agree 100 %, should be there, it's the most convenient way to work (to be honnest it bugs me that it's not available).
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02-29-2020, 08:22 AM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
But this is also a limitation in MIDI itself, no?
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Yes, it is limitation in MIDI itself, but there is no reason to have the same limitation in graphical envelope representation of MIDI CC events.
You can think of envelope as a path with direction. The direction is from left to right (or a bit of curve/ramp up/down, but mostly from left to right). The path direction is never from right to left. Two points at the same time position creates a straight vertical section in a path. In straight vertical sections the path direction can be up or down. In those sections of the path there is still always only one point which is the last point on the path.
Reaper could use that last point of the vertical section as the MIDI CC value at that time position. The other points at the same time position would be used only as helper points for editing. Those helper points would not generate any MIDI data.
Without supporting two points at same time position, it is unnecessarily diffcult and awkward to create envelopes like this in MIDI editor:
jnif
Last edited by jnif; 02-29-2020 at 08:45 AM.
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02-29-2020, 10:06 AM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Sunny Siberian Islands
Posts: 957
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif
Without supporting two points at same time position, it is unnecessarily diffcult and awkward to create envelopes like this in MIDI editor:
jnif
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Hm. However, in the example, the process is quite fast and convenient. Maybe you have examples where another approach will make the same thing even faster and easier?
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02-29-2020, 11:05 AM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cool
Hm. However, in the example, the process is quite fast and convenient. Maybe you have examples where another approach will make the same thing even faster and easier?
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The example above was done in arrange view track envelope. It is fast and convenient.
In MIDI editor you can do approximately same thing by temporarily disabling 'Snap to grid':
But the result is not exactly the same as in the arrange view example. And it complicates further editing, for example this:
jnif
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02-29-2020, 11:27 AM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,924
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??!! I don't understand.
We can do this inside the midi editor (with vertical lines) !
What is the problem ?
If the pasted point is not exactly on the same time grid than one point, this one point will not be deleted... That's just as well.
Last edited by ovnis; 02-29-2020 at 11:54 AM.
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02-29-2020, 11:33 AM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Yes, there is an option in Preferences to prevent mouse edits of single CC events from moving past other events. Easy.
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02-29-2020, 11:40 AM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,924
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Inside the midi editor:
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02-29-2020, 12:05 PM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
Yes, there is an option in Preferences to prevent mouse edits of single CC events from moving past other events. Easy.
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Thanks. That is a useful option. I did not know it exists.
Still, the question is why the behavior is not consistent with arrange view track envelopes?
In track envelopes you can snap two points to same time position or move a point past other points without changing any preferences.
And with the "Prevent mouse edits of single CC events from moving past other event" enabled I'm still getting this erratic behavior:
See how at time 0:11 and 0:27 the point above the moved point disappears.
Is this a bug?
EDIT:
It still looks like enabling "Prevent mouse edits of single CC events from moving past other event" only hides the limitation that points cannot be at the same time position.
Even when snap is enabled the envelope points are still not snapped to grid. That is confusing.
And this is causing weird behavior when pasting over other points that are snapped to grid.
jnif
Last edited by jnif; 02-29-2020 at 12:32 PM.
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02-29-2020, 01:40 PM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,111
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For comparison, here is the simple and intuitive behavior in arrange view track envelope:
I think it would be very difficult, or maybe impossible, to get that same intuitive behavior in MIDI editor CC lane without allowing two points at same time position.
Here is another example of the same simple and intuitive behavior in MIDI CC lane in another DAW:
jnif
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02-29-2020, 03:05 PM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,924
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Quote:
Even when snap is enabled the envelope points are still not snapped to grid. That is confusing.
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If two points are exaclty snaped on the same place, how Reaper will play thoses two points at the same time?!
Two points exactly at the same place should not exist. The actual system is OK for me. At normal zoom level, it seems two points are on the same place, but when we zoom on it, it's not the case.
It's the same behaviour for the automation envelope.
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02-29-2020, 03:23 PM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovnis
If two points are exaclty snaped on the same place, how Reaper will play thoses two points at the same time?!
Two points exactly at the same place should not exist.
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I already explained this in post #7 above.
Only the last point on the vertical envelope path should be played.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovnis
The actual system is OK for me. At normal zoom level, it seems two points are on the same place, but when we zoom on it, it's not the case.
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It might be OK for you but it is still not consistent with arrange view track envelopes. And it is not as intuitive and easy to use as it could be.
I don't see any advantage in not allowing multiple points at same time position.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovnis
It's the same behaviour for the automation envelope.
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I don't know what you mean.
MIDI CC envelopes and automation envelopes in arrange view have different behavior.
jnif
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02-29-2020, 03:33 PM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,924
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I'm OK with you.
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02-29-2020, 07:01 PM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Right Hear
Posts: 15,618
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thanks everyone, ...all good points of discussion...
However, just to say, in the spirit of keep it simple and one step at a time..
I'd really like to see even just the original post complaint get fixed..
so that filled or empty points for selected or non selected point are consistent between the MIDI Ed. and the TCP automation lanes....
hopefully the DEV's could fix that easily?
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02-29-2020, 07:37 PM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Sunny Siberian Islands
Posts: 957
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif
For comparison, here is the simple and intuitive behavior in arrange view track envelope:
I think it would be very difficult, or maybe impossible, to get that same intuitive behavior in MIDI editor CC lane without allowing two points at same time position.
Here is another example of the same simple and intuitive behavior in MIDI CC lane in another DAW:
jnif
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Good examples!
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03-01-2020, 08:29 AM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loulou92
Hey man when you talk about area selction, it's the possibility to select media items, midi items, and automation items, in one shot by clic and drag in the arrange view right ? treat all these things the same when it comes to selection ? Because if it is, I agree 100 %, should be there, it's the most convenient way to work (to be honnest it bugs me that it's not available).
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Yup, would take care of 80% of Reaper's issues with duplication in a single "feature" (aka the most common and intuitive way to select since Cubase for Atari ST).
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03-05-2020, 10:07 PM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Paris
Posts: 544
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferropop
Yup, would take care of 80% of Reaper's issues with duplication in a single "feature" (aka the most common and intuitive way to select since Cubase for Atari ST).
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Yes yes yes i totally agree... And I think we're not alone. Selection in Reaper has been a very frustrating process. We need something unified and universal, aka... Area selection.
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03-07-2020, 10:32 AM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Right Hear
Posts: 15,618
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sure would be nice to see any of the DEV's comment here regarding the OP
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03-08-2020, 12:01 PM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,116
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In my humble opinion, it would be super important to standardize 100% completely across the DAW when it comes to envelope manipulation. There's really no reason for any differences in look, function, behaviour between MIDI CC Lanes and Envelope Lanes now that curves have been added.
ie, not being able to Alt-Scrub to erase points in the Envelope lane. Little details along with everything else discussed in the thread. Everything just needs to be standardized!
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03-10-2020, 08:13 AM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 1,075
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loulou92
Yes yes yes i totally agree... And I think we're not alone. Selection in Reaper has been a very frustrating process. We need something unified and universal, aka... Area selection.
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...along with a 100% unambiguous way to differentiate selected/unselected items visually.
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