Old 02-28-2020, 05:47 PM   #1
hopi
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Default CC points vs envelope points

It seems odd to me that points in the trim envelope lanes appear as
unfilled circles when not selected and filled circles when selected...
and yet in the MIDI Editor, for CC lanes this scheme is reversed...
in CC lanes the points are filled when unselected and empty when selected

doesn't this seem very confusing to a user and very non consistent?

I don't see a reason for this... talking version 6.04 here
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Old 02-29-2020, 12:19 AM   #2
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Agreed, actually!
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Old 02-29-2020, 03:57 AM   #3
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In MIDI editor, envelope points are always filled. Selection is indicated by highlighting point edges, envelope segments and the fill area under envelope. In default theme, highlight is lighter/brighter color.
This is not consistent with track envelopes and automation items in arrange view.

MIDI editor envelopes are almost like from another application. Almost everything is inconsistent in some way.
  • Mouse modifiers are different
  • Selection behavior is different. For example adjusting a segment will also select the segment in MIDI editor.
  • LFO tool is different.
  • Tooltips missing in MIDI editor.
  • Curve shapes in MIDI editor, Point shapes in arrange view.
  • Only one envelope point allowed at each time position in MIDI editor. This makes editing difficult and unintuitive.
  • Right click menu contents is almost completely different and similar things are in different order/position.
  • Righ click deletes envelope point by default in MIDI editor. Very inconsistent.
  • Envelope copy-paste behavior is different. In MIDI editor, pasted segments do not overwrite existing points. This is unintuitive and annoying.
  • Editing multiple selected segments is different. In arrange view you can adjust single segment even when multiple points are selected, in MIDI editor you cannot. In MIDI editor you can adjust curvature of multiple segements at the same time, in arrange view (using default modifiers) you cannot. There is a "gang selected points" option that can be customized in mouse modifiers.

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Old 02-29-2020, 07:19 AM   #4
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...and going the other way, seems crazy to require ReaControlMIDI just to automate MIDI CCs on Arrange View, meanwhile they're natively automatable in MIDI editor. Again, just like lack of Area Selection, NO other DAW operates this way and there's seemingly no benefit/advantage to working this way other than being able to stick ReaControlMIDI between plugins -- but then have both!
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Old 02-29-2020, 07:21 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
Only one envelope point allowed at each time position in MIDI editor.
But this is also a limitation in MIDI itself, no?
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Old 02-29-2020, 08:16 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferropop View Post
...and going the other way, seems crazy to require ReaControlMIDI just to automate MIDI CCs on Arrange View, meanwhile they're natively automatable in MIDI editor. Again, just like lack of Area Selection, NO other DAW operates this way and there's seemingly no benefit/advantage to working this way other than being able to stick ReaControlMIDI between plugins -- but then have both!
Hey man when you talk about area selction, it's the possibility to select media items, midi items, and automation items, in one shot by clic and drag in the arrange view right ? treat all these things the same when it comes to selection ? Because if it is, I agree 100 %, should be there, it's the most convenient way to work (to be honnest it bugs me that it's not available).
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Old 02-29-2020, 08:22 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
But this is also a limitation in MIDI itself, no?
Yes, it is limitation in MIDI itself, but there is no reason to have the same limitation in graphical envelope representation of MIDI CC events.

You can think of envelope as a path with direction. The direction is from left to right (or a bit of curve/ramp up/down, but mostly from left to right). The path direction is never from right to left. Two points at the same time position creates a straight vertical section in a path. In straight vertical sections the path direction can be up or down. In those sections of the path there is still always only one point which is the last point on the path.

Reaper could use that last point of the vertical section as the MIDI CC value at that time position. The other points at the same time position would be used only as helper points for editing. Those helper points would not generate any MIDI data.

Without supporting two points at same time position, it is unnecessarily diffcult and awkward to create envelopes like this in MIDI editor:



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Last edited by jnif; 02-29-2020 at 08:45 AM.
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Old 02-29-2020, 10:06 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
Without supporting two points at same time position, it is unnecessarily diffcult and awkward to create envelopes like this in MIDI editor:



jnif
Hm. However, in the example, the process is quite fast and convenient. Maybe you have examples where another approach will make the same thing even faster and easier?
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Old 02-29-2020, 11:05 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cool View Post
Hm. However, in the example, the process is quite fast and convenient. Maybe you have examples where another approach will make the same thing even faster and easier?
The example above was done in arrange view track envelope. It is fast and convenient.

In MIDI editor you can do approximately same thing by temporarily disabling 'Snap to grid':


But the result is not exactly the same as in the arrange view example. And it complicates further editing, for example this:



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Old 02-29-2020, 11:27 AM   #10
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??!! I don't understand.

We can do this inside the midi editor (with vertical lines) !



What is the problem ?



If the pasted point is not exactly on the same time grid than one point, this one point will not be deleted... That's just as well.

Last edited by ovnis; 02-29-2020 at 11:54 AM.
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Old 02-29-2020, 11:33 AM   #11
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Yes, there is an option in Preferences to prevent mouse edits of single CC events from moving past other events. Easy.
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Old 02-29-2020, 11:40 AM   #12
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Inside the midi editor:
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Old 02-29-2020, 12:05 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Yes, there is an option in Preferences to prevent mouse edits of single CC events from moving past other events. Easy.
Thanks. That is a useful option. I did not know it exists.

Still, the question is why the behavior is not consistent with arrange view track envelopes?
In track envelopes you can snap two points to same time position or move a point past other points without changing any preferences.

And with the "Prevent mouse edits of single CC events from moving past other event" enabled I'm still getting this erratic behavior:

See how at time 0:11 and 0:27 the point above the moved point disappears.
Is this a bug?

EDIT:
It still looks like enabling "Prevent mouse edits of single CC events from moving past other event" only hides the limitation that points cannot be at the same time position.

Even when snap is enabled the envelope points are still not snapped to grid. That is confusing.
And this is causing weird behavior when pasting over other points that are snapped to grid.

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Last edited by jnif; 02-29-2020 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 02-29-2020, 01:40 PM   #14
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For comparison, here is the simple and intuitive behavior in arrange view track envelope:


I think it would be very difficult, or maybe impossible, to get that same intuitive behavior in MIDI editor CC lane without allowing two points at same time position.

Here is another example of the same simple and intuitive behavior in MIDI CC lane in another DAW:


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Old 02-29-2020, 03:05 PM   #15
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Quote:
Even when snap is enabled the envelope points are still not snapped to grid. That is confusing.
If two points are exaclty snaped on the same place, how Reaper will play thoses two points at the same time?!

Two points exactly at the same place should not exist. The actual system is OK for me. At normal zoom level, it seems two points are on the same place, but when we zoom on it, it's not the case.

It's the same behaviour for the automation envelope.
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Old 02-29-2020, 03:23 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovnis View Post
If two points are exaclty snaped on the same place, how Reaper will play thoses two points at the same time?!

Two points exactly at the same place should not exist.
I already explained this in post #7 above.
Only the last point on the vertical envelope path should be played.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ovnis View Post
The actual system is OK for me. At normal zoom level, it seems two points are on the same place, but when we zoom on it, it's not the case.
It might be OK for you but it is still not consistent with arrange view track envelopes. And it is not as intuitive and easy to use as it could be.
I don't see any advantage in not allowing multiple points at same time position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ovnis View Post
It's the same behaviour for the automation envelope.
I don't know what you mean.
MIDI CC envelopes and automation envelopes in arrange view have different behavior.

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Old 02-29-2020, 03:33 PM   #17
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I'm OK with you.
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Old 02-29-2020, 07:01 PM   #18
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thanks everyone, ...all good points of discussion...

However, just to say, in the spirit of keep it simple and one step at a time..

I'd really like to see even just the original post complaint get fixed..
so that filled or empty points for selected or non selected point are consistent between the MIDI Ed. and the TCP automation lanes....

hopefully the DEV's could fix that easily?
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Old 02-29-2020, 07:37 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
For comparison, here is the simple and intuitive behavior in arrange view track envelope:


I think it would be very difficult, or maybe impossible, to get that same intuitive behavior in MIDI editor CC lane without allowing two points at same time position.

Here is another example of the same simple and intuitive behavior in MIDI CC lane in another DAW:


jnif
Good examples!
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Old 03-01-2020, 08:29 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loulou92 View Post
Hey man when you talk about area selction, it's the possibility to select media items, midi items, and automation items, in one shot by clic and drag in the arrange view right ? treat all these things the same when it comes to selection ? Because if it is, I agree 100 %, should be there, it's the most convenient way to work (to be honnest it bugs me that it's not available).
Yup, would take care of 80% of Reaper's issues with duplication in a single "feature" (aka the most common and intuitive way to select since Cubase for Atari ST).
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Old 03-05-2020, 10:07 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferropop View Post
Yup, would take care of 80% of Reaper's issues with duplication in a single "feature" (aka the most common and intuitive way to select since Cubase for Atari ST).
Yes yes yes i totally agree... And I think we're not alone. Selection in Reaper has been a very frustrating process. We need something unified and universal, aka... Area selection.
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Old 03-07-2020, 10:32 AM   #22
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sure would be nice to see any of the DEV's comment here regarding the OP
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Old 03-08-2020, 12:01 PM   #23
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In my humble opinion, it would be super important to standardize 100% completely across the DAW when it comes to envelope manipulation. There's really no reason for any differences in look, function, behaviour between MIDI CC Lanes and Envelope Lanes now that curves have been added.

ie, not being able to Alt-Scrub to erase points in the Envelope lane. Little details along with everything else discussed in the thread. Everything just needs to be standardized!
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Old 03-10-2020, 08:13 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loulou92 View Post
Yes yes yes i totally agree... And I think we're not alone. Selection in Reaper has been a very frustrating process. We need something unified and universal, aka... Area selection.

...along with a 100% unambiguous way to differentiate selected/unselected items visually.
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